Israel-Hamas Thread II

ralliann · Jan 15, 2024

adrianmonk said:
I never claimed that there weren't Jews in the land prior to the creation of Israel. What I am claiming is that there were others as well (Arabs, Druze) as well. If it is just a matter of geography, then why are non Jewish residents considered foreign and need to be deported ?

My question is: Why do you believe that Arabs are foreigners in the occupied territories in Israel whereas Jews who migrate from all over the world settling these occupied territories are native ? Especially since the Arabs have been there for centuries.

And rather than answering that question, you instead ask me why I support Israel's destruction.

Because both were given land by others. The brits, the ottomans Turks. They controlled the land and occupied it at that time. The brits remained brits, ottomans remained turks. They were not native to the land....but they controlled the land. Then the brits split it up.
So, Arabic Palestinians, and Judean Palestinians had their parts given them. Did the brits take Palestinian land? Did the Turks take Palestinian land? NO!
They were given land by the same people.
The problem was the Arabs, started a war.
Israel won. Just like the ottomans before them, just like Rome before them and so on.
Palestinians have no more native claim to the land than those who "occupied" it before them did.
Now why don't you tell me why they have some special Nativity that previous people before didn't? So much so as to kill Jew's and rid them out of their land?

Philip_B · Jan 15, 2024

Vambram said:
One of my most favorite passages of Scripture. Those verses are my signature on christianforums.com

Unfortunately, those verses don't stop the jihadists from killing Jews.

Mine too, and for me it reminds me that fighting for peace may not require weapons of war, for justice and truth are far more effective.

Aussie Pete · Jan 15, 2024

Philip_B said:
Even though Palestine was not able to control her own destiny, it was on the basis of the recognition of her independence that the Covenant of the League of Nations determined a system of government for her. Her existence and her independence among the nations can, therefore, no more be questioned de jure than the independence of any of the other Arab States. [...] Therefore, the States signatory to the Pact of the Arab League consider that in view of Palestine's special circumstances, the Council of the League should designate an Arab delegate from Palestine to participate in its work until this country enjoys actual independence
Pact of the League of Arab States, 22 March 1945

On 9 September 2020, the Arab League refused to condemn the UAE's decision to normalize ties with Israel. Nevertheless, "The goal all our Arab countries seek, without exception, is to end the occupation and establish an independent Palestinian state on the 1967 borders with East Jerusalem as its capital,"
Al Jazeera. 9 September 2020.

I don't particularly want to disagree with you in relation to Israel, however, to ignore Palestinians, to to use sentences like "They have neither a legal or moral obligation to so-called Palestinians." seems at least partisan, if not derogatory.

The United Arab Emirates does recognise Israel and has normalised relations with them. They also recognise Palestine and have diplomatic relations with them.

I don't think it is easy, but simply dismissing Palestine out of existence will not resolve the problem. They too are human beings made in the image and after the likeness of God. The current iteration of Israel is to some extent a manufactured solution, and whilst part of the rise of 19th-century Zionism was built on the Jew's historic aspiration to return to the land of their historic origins yet much of the truth of Jewish History is lived in diaspora, and it is a testimony for the religious, cultural and ethnic ties to one another and to God that accounts for their survival. Part of the European support for Zionism may well also have been anti-semitic, based on the notion it would be nice if we could pack the Jews off and leave us with the money, neatly tied up with the idea that it is true to the Bible.

I don't know why you would expect Israel to resolve a problem that is not of their making. The PLA has had opportunities to form an independent state, which they have rejected and still reject. They do not want a two state solution. They intend to have a single, Palestinian state. It's ironic in extreme that Israel should be accused of genocide. It is the Palestinians who are crying out for end of Israel. Unless and until that changes, there is no hope for any solution that does not entail the end of Israel as a nation. Israel is obviously not going to accept that.

Pommer · Jan 15, 2024

adrianmonk said:
My question is: Why do you believe that Arabs are foreigners in the occupied territories in Israel whereas Jews who migrate from all over the world settling these occupied territories are native ? Especially since the Arabs have been there for centuries.

This is the fallout of early-mid 1920s Zionism. Due to the regularity of pogroms in Russia, many of the Russian Jewry emigrated to Palestine. They had been used to having a segregated situation that kept them safe.
Once their numbers increased, they balked at cohabitation of the land with their Muslim Arab neighbors. They wanted to stay “apart” (who knows, maybe even for
“religious reasons?”), then went to war to “make it official”.

Philip_B · Jan 16, 2024

Aussie Pete said:
I don't know why you would expect Israel to resolve a problem that is not of their making. The PLA has had opportunities to form an independent state, which they have rejected and still reject. They do not want a two state solution. They intend to have a single, Palestinian state. It's ironic in extreme that Israel should be accused of genocide. It is the Palestinians who are crying out for end of Israel. Unless and until that changes, there is no hope for any solution that does not entail the end of Israel as a nation. Israel is obviously not going to accept that.

Perhaps the devil is in the detail. I suspect that Israel's requirements to agree are unacceptable to the Palestinians. and vice-versa.

Jerusalem itself is very difficult as it holds sacred sites for Moslems, Jews, and Christians. There was a huge uproar recently when some Israeli Officials entered one of the Mosques. Mark 13:14 came to mind with the alarm at Roman Standards being set within the Temple Precinct.

If we want Peace then we have to play nicely, otherwise it will not work. If you can not have an element of respect for the three Great Traditions who look to Abraham amongst others, I don't see much hope. And yes, that is a 3-way street.

Robban · Jan 16, 2024

Pommer said:
This is the fallout of early-mid 1920s Zionism. Due to the regularity of pogroms in Russia, many of the Russian Jewry emigrated to Palestine. They had been used to having a segregated situation that kept them safe.
Once their numbers increased, they balked at cohabitation of the land with their Muslim Arab neighbors. They wanted to stay “apart” (who knows, maybe even for
“religious reasons?”), then went to war to “make it official”.

Earlier than so, It was Theodore Hertzl who got the ball rolling.

Somewhere in Argentina or Uganda was even under consideration.

rjs330 · Jan 16, 2024

Philip_B said:
The Biblical evidence, the cultural evidence, and the DNA evidence all suggest that Jews and Palestinians are ethnically and genetically the same. The Jews were subject to a diaspora in the period of Roman governance, and that is sad, and a great testament to the strength of their cultural heritage and religious conviction and trust in God is that they did not lose their identity. I have no objection to the return of the Jews to the land of Abraham and the promise. HOWEVER! There is no justice in claiming that the people who lived in the land for all that time have no say and no place in the land of their fathers. If there is no justice there will be no true and lasting peace. Your claim that Palestinians came from Arabia and Syria simply does not stand up to scrutiny.

You may want explain that to the Palestinians since they seem to think they should be killing the Jews and destroying Israel. They don't want the Jews there and want to wipe them out. They have declined any all advances toward their own state and Israel.

There will be no justice there and no peace as long as the Palestinians keep acting the way they do towards the Jews.

rjs330 · Jan 16, 2024

adrianmonk said:
I never claimed that there weren't Jews in the land prior to the creation of Israel. What I am claiming is that there were others as well (Arabs, Druze) as well. If it is just a matter of geography, then why are non Jewish residents considered foreign and need to be deported ?

My question is: Why do you believe that Arabs are foreigners in the occupied territories in Israel whereas Jews who migrate from all over the world settling these occupied territories are native ? Especially since the Arabs have been there for centuries.

And rather than answering that question, you instead ask me why I support Israel's destruction.

If you are going to use this argument then you need to abide by it. The Jews haven't had this land for centuries. They have had it for thousands of years. So they cannot be foreign to the land. It was theirs further back. And on it goes. This isn't Palestinian land. It's Jewish land IF one is going to make ancestrial claims.

And IF you claim it is Palestinian land and support the Palestinian cause then you own the cause, which goal is to destroy Israel and the Jews.

The truth is land only belongs to whomever can take it and control it. In this case the land Israel has is land they took and now control.

ralliann · Jan 16, 2024

Philip_B said:
The Biblical evidence, the cultural evidence, and the DNA evidence all suggest that Jews and Palestinians are ethnically and genetically the same. The Jews were subject to a diaspora in the period of Roman governance, and that is sad, and a great testament to the strength of their cultural heritage and religious conviction and trust in God is that they did not lose their identity. I have no objection to the return of the Jews to the land of Abraham and the promise. HOWEVER! There is no justice in claiming that the people who lived in the land for all that time have no say and no place in the land of their fathers. If there is no justice there will be no true and lasting peace. Your claim that Palestinians came from Arabia and Syria simply does not stand up to scrutiny.

You said it. There can be no lasting peace.

ralliann · Jan 16, 2024

rjs330 said:
You may want explain that to the Palestinians since they seem to think they should be killing the Jews and destroying Israel. They don't want the Jews there and want to wipe them out. They have declined any all advances toward their own state and Israel.

There will be no justice there and no peace as long as the Palestinians keep acting the way they do towards the Jews.

Yep. There is no way Israel can go back to their 1948 borders. That is putting a standard on Israel completely different than any other nation, including the Palestinians.

civilwarbuff · Jan 16, 2024

adrianmonk said:
Can you explain ? The country of Israel has only existed since 1948.

Not all Jews left Israel during the Diaspora....but I think you already knew that.

civilwarbuff · Jan 16, 2024

JosephZ said:
There had never been a state of Israel prior to 1948.

WHAAAAAAAAT? Are you kidding me? There is this book called a Bible, maybe you've heard of it?....as well as historical evidence of the existence of Israel outside of the Bible.
The history of ancient Israel and Judah begins in the Southern Levant region of Western Asia during the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age. The earliest known reference to "Israel" as a people or tribal confederation (see Israelites) is in the Merneptah Stele, an inscription from ancient Egypt that dates to about 1208 BCE, but the people group may be older. According to modern archaeology, ancient Israelite culture developed as an outgrowth from the pre-existing Canaanite civilization. Two related Israelite polities known as the Kingdom of Israel (Samaria) and the Kingdom of Judah had emerged in the region by Iron Age II.

History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Did you sleep thru world history in school?

civilwarbuff · Jan 16, 2024

adrianmonk · Jan 16, 2024

rjs330 said:
If you are going to use this argument then you need to abide by it. The Jews haven't had this land for centuries. They have had it for thousands of years. So they cannot be foreign to the land. It was theirs further back. And on it goes. This isn't Palestinian land. It's Jewish land IF one is going to make ancestrial claims.

There have been Palestinians civilians living there for centuries. Why are they considered foreigners who need to go back to ** insert random Arab country here **.

rjs330 said:
And IF you claim it is Palestinian land and support the Palestinian cause then you own the cause, which goal is to destroy Israel and the Jews.

Nope that's not how it works. I can be for Israel's right to exist, I can be for Jewish people to have their own homeland, yet I can be against how Palestinian people in the occupied territories are treated by Israel. Because I support Israel's right to exist, I don't have to be pro Jewish settlers in the West Bank. And because I believe the Palestinians in the occupied territories should have a say in their own destinies, it does not mean I support violence against the Israelis.

rjs330 said:
The truth is land only belongs to whomever can take it and control it. In this case the land Israel has is land they took and now control.

Unfortunately this is now the world works. I don't disagree.

My concern is with the posts who claim that Palestinians are foreigners and need to leave the occupied territories or be forced out. This is considered ethnic cleansing and I oppose that.

ralliann said:
Palestinians have no more native claim to the land than those who "occupied" it before them did.

They live there right now. If you are suggesting that since Israel controls the land after the 1967 war, they can just deport the Palestinians and bring in Jewish settlers, then I oppose that. That is considered ethnic cleansing.

ralliann said:
Now why don't you tell me why they have some special Nativity that previous people before didn't? So much so as to kill Jew's and rid them out of their land?

They live there now. And through their ancestors lived there for centuries. You are the one who claimed they were foreigners and need to go.

ralliann · Jan 16, 2024

rjs330 said:
You may want explain that to the Palestinians since they seem to think they should be killing the Jews and destroying Israel. They don't want the Jews there and want to wipe them out. They have declined any all advances toward their own state and Israel.

There will be no justice there and no peace as long as the Palestinians keep acting the way they do towards the Jews.

rjs330 said:
If you are going to use this argument then you need to abide by it. The Jews haven't had this land for centuries. They have had it for thousands of years. So they cannot be foreign to the land. It was theirs further back. And on it goes. This isn't Palestinian land. It's Jewish land IF one is going to make ancestrial claims.

And IF you claim it is Palestinian land and support the Palestinian cause then you own the cause, which goal is to destroy Israel and the Jews.

The truth is land only belongs to whomever can take it and control it. In this case the land Israel has is land they took and now control.

Yes! All the nations, empires etc. that took control of that land was ok. But, Israel is somehow looked at differently, and the Palestinians are also behaving differently as well. Israel never started any war, but they did win in war.
Israel originally was there peacefully.

ralliann · Jan 16, 2024

adrianmonk said:
There have been Palestinians civilians living there for centuries. Why are they considered foreigners who need to go back to ** insert random Arab country here **.

Because they are claiming exclusive nativity, despite Israel's nativity to the land as well. That is why they all attacked Israel, and started a war. If Israel does not belong there, then neither do they.

adrianmonk said:
Nope that's not how it works. I can be for Israel's right to exist, I can be for Jewish people to have their own homeland,

One step at a time.
We can all agree togetherwith the above
. But.......The Arabs could not. They wanted Israel dead and gone, despite how little land they had at that time. They didn't want them to exist. So, they attacked Israel.

adrianmonk said:
yet I can be against how Palestinian people in the occupied territories are treated by Israel.

I can be against how Israel was treated by the Arabs and Palestinians. I can be against the ideology of exclusive claims to the land, that caused them to attempt to destroy Israel.

adrianmonk said:
Because I support Israel's right to exist,

But they did not, and some (Palestinians) still don't. I still can be against that. It has caused the hatred and violence, and it is continuing it.

adrianmonk said:
I don't have to be pro Jewish settlers in the West Bank. And because I believe the Palestinians in the occupied territories should have a say in their own destinies, it does not mean I support violence against the Israelis.

Unfortunately this is now the world works. I don't disagree.

My concern is with the posts who claim that Palestinians are foreigners and need to leave the occupied territories or be forced out. This is considered ethnic cleansing and I oppose that.

They live there right now. If you are suggesting that since Israel controls the land after the 1967 war, they can just deport the Palestinians and bring in Jewish settlers, then I oppose that. That is considered ethnic cleansing.

They live there now. And through their ancestors lived there for centuries. You are the one who claimed they were foreigners and need to go.

I am suggesting their ideology of exclusive claim to the land, and therefore Israel needs to be destroyed, from the river to the sea, as a foreigner in the land can be applied to The Palestinians as well if not more so.

ralliann · Jan 17, 2024

Philip_B said:
The Biblical evidence, the cultural evidence, and the DNA evidence all suggest that Jews and Palestinians are ethnically and genetically the same. The Jews were subject to a diaspora in the period of Roman governance, and that is sad, and a great testament to the strength of their cultural heritage and religious conviction and trust in God is that they did not lose their identity. I have no objection to the return of the Jews to the land of Abraham and the promise. HOWEVER! There is no justice in claiming that the people who lived in the land for all that time have no say and no place in the land of their fathers.

Their fathers are not the twelve Patriarchs of Israel. But Ishmael

Ge 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
Gen 25:13 And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,
14 And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa,
15 Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah:
16 These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes

Abraham was promised land from the river of Egypt to the river Euphrates. The land of Israel was the land of the twelve Patriarchs of Jacob.
Living in the land of Israel is not the land of their fathers.

rjs330 · Jan 17, 2024

adrianmonk said:
Nope that's not how it works. I can be for Israel's right to exist, I can be for Jewish people to have their own homeland, yet I can be against how Palestinian people in the occupied territories are treated by Israel. Because I support Israel's right to exist, I don't have to be pro Jewish settlers in the West Bank. And because I believe the Palestinians in the occupied territories should have a say in their own destinies, it does not mean I support violence against the Israelis.

Okay if that's what you believe that's okay. It was sounding like you supported the Palestinian claim to all the land from the river to the sea as being theirs. Apparently you don't support that. That's good. Thanks for clarifying.

What occupied territories are you talking about. Just the West Bank or are their others?

adrianmonk said:
Unfortunately this is now the world works. I don't disagree.

My concern is with the posts who claim that Palestinians are foreigners and need to leave the occupied territories or be forced out. This is considered ethnic cleansing and I oppose that.

It can't be denied that Israel has the greater claim if one is making such a claim. They have been their not for centuries but for thousands of years. They had the land first. The real natives. The Palestinians are the one claiming native land. Historically they are the foreigners. They never controlled the land. The Palestinians are the ones claiming the land is theirs from the river to the sea. I haven't seen Israel making that claim. Even though they have the greater right of it.

I still don't know what you call occupied territory. The only occupied territory is in the West Bank. Gaza hasn't been since 2006.

That being said Israel herself is not for pushing all the Palestinians out and make a claim for the land from the river to the sea.

Neither am I, although I wouldn't be opposed to it if they can't get themselves under control and stop attacking Israel. They would have it coming then.

adrianmonk said:
They live there right now. If you are suggesting that since Israel controls the land after the 1967 war, they can just deport the Palestinians and bring in Jewish settlers, then I oppose that. That is considered ethnic cleansing.

Sometimes that's necessary to have peace. If leaving them there would mean they would constantly and consistently attack the Jews there then ethnic cleansing would be necessary. From what I've seen for the last 50 years is a no evidence that the Palestinians would leave the Jews alone.

civilwarbuff · Jan 18, 2024

Philip_B said:
The Biblical evidence, the cultural evidence, and the DNA evidence all suggest that Jews and Palestinians are ethnically and genetically the same.

That's not possible. Both Abraham and Sarah (who was related to Abraham) were, most likely, Semetic. Hagar, OTOH, was Egyptian so it would be impossible for the 2 peoples to be 'ethnically and genetically the same.'

Robban · Jan 18, 2024

civilwarbuff said:
That's not possible. Both Abraham and Sarah (who was related to Abraham) were, most likely, Semetic. Hagar, OTOH, was Egyptian so it would be impossible for the 2 peoples to be 'ethnically and genetically the same.'

Who is who or who is what?

Whoever possesses the following three traits is of the disciples of our father Abraham.
Whoever possesses the opposite three traits is of the disciples of the wicked Balaam.

The disciples of our father Abraham have,
a good eye, a meek spirit and a humble soul.

The disciples of the wicked Balaam have,
an evil eye, a haughty spirit and a gross soul.

Ethics of the Fathers 5:19

Israel-Hamas Thread II

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