Israel-Hamas Thread II

[o_mlly]

Just because Israel is acting in self-defence does not, for that specific reason, justify whatever they choose to do, even if it is obviously "overkill".

At exactly what number does "overkill" become obvious?

... when someone challenges you to support your claims, it is incumbent on you, not the person who challenges you, to support your claim.

After establishing the number that defines "overkill", support that that number is not justified in this conflict.

If person A attacks person B, person A does have a right to defend himself against person B.

? I take it that person A is Hamas the attacker - the unjust aggressor. Person B is Isarel. If so then person A remains an unjust attacker and is not a defender. If otherwise then the moral logic of your analogy escapes me.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Israel recognizing Palestine as a state and the Palestinians as a people would be a good start.

That was tried in 1948. There was meant to be two states. The Muslim enemies of Israel were not content with that. They attempted to destroy Israel. A two state solution has been proposed many times. The PLA is not interested. They expect to drive Israel to destruction and achieve their stated aim of a one state solution. A Palestinian state, if you need that spelt out.

I don't know why you should expect the victims of 75 years of Muslim aggression to play Mr Nice Guy. They have neither a legal or moral obligation to so-called Palestinians. Perhaps when the Arabs decide to eschew violence and accept the right of Israel to exist, Israel will sit down with the PLA yet again.

The so-called Palestinians are the problem, not Israel. Sure, the current administration is not interested in a two state solution. Who wants the worshipers of a mass murdering paedophile as their neighbour? Especially when that neighbour refuses to accept your right to exist? Israel's biggest mistake was not destroying Hamas before it grew into the threat it became 7th October.

Do you imagine that Israelis want war? They've been victims of oppression for 2,000 years. They finally get their homeland back and they are still continually attacked. To add insult to injury, people like you blame Israel.

Try again. Maybe you will succeed when no one else in the world has managed so far.

 

[Pekka]

Transjordan was meant to be for Arabs and Israel for Israelites. Israel is a very small land surrouded by 20+ Arab nations with vast lands. Dont you think it is wrong to take their fatherland, that small batch in the middle of those large Arab lands? Other countries have waged wars and winners are now in our map but for some reason Israel’s wins are not counted. They are forced to survive with a nation that wants to wipe the off the map.

 

[Philip_B]

Even though Palestine was not able to control her own destiny, it was on the basis of the recognition of her independence that the Covenant of the League of Nations determined a system of government for her. Her existence and her independence among the nations can, therefore, no more be questioned de jure than the independence of any of the other Arab States. [...] Therefore, the States signatory to the Pact of the Arab League consider that in view of Palestine's special circumstances, the Council of the League should designate an Arab delegate from Palestine to participate in its work until this country enjoys actual independence​

Pact of the League of Arab States, 22 March 1945​

On 9 September 2020, the Arab League refused to condemn the UAE's decision to normalize ties with Israel. Nevertheless, "The goal all our Arab countries seek, without exception, is to end the occupation and establish an independent Palestinian state on the 1967 borders with East Jerusalem as its capital,"​

Al Jazeera. 9 September 2020.​

Do you imagine that Israelis want war? They've been victims of oppression for 2,000 years. They finally get their homeland back and they are still continually attacked. To add insult to injury, people like you blame Israel.

I don't particularly want to disagree with you in relation to Israel, however, to ignore Palestinians, to to use sentences like "They have neither a legal or moral obligation to so-called Palestinians." seems at least partisan, if not derogatory.

The United Arab Emirates does recognise Israel and has normalised relations with them. They also recognise Palestine and have diplomatic relations with them.

I don't think it is easy, but simply dismissing Palestine out of existence will not resolve the problem. They too are human beings made in the image and after the likeness of God. The current iteration of Israel is to some extent a manufactured solution, and whilst part of the rise of 19th-century Zionism was built on the Jew's historic aspiration to return to the land of their historic origins yet much of the truth of Jewish History is lived in diaspora, and it is a testimony for the religious, cultural and ethnic ties to one another and to God that accounts for their survival. Part of the European support for Zionism may well also have been anti-semitic, based on the notion it would be nice if we could pack the Jews off and leave us with the money, neatly tied up with the idea that it is true to the Bible.

 

[ralliann]

Israel has offered to work out a deal and it's been rejected every time by the Palestinians. They had their opportunities to be recognized by Israel and refused.

Yes, because they are claiming it is their land. They are rejecting statehood based upon that claim.

 

[ralliann]

Even though Palestine was not able to control her own destiny, it was on the basis of the recognition of her independence that the Covenant of the League of Nations determined a system of government for her. Her existence and her independence among the nations can, therefore, no more be questioned de jure than the independence of any of the other Arab States. [...] Therefore, the States signatory to the Pact of the Arab League consider that in view of Palestine's special circumstances, the Council of the League should designate an Arab delegate from Palestine to participate in its work until this country enjoys actual independence​

Pact of the League of Arab States, 22 March 1945​

On 9 September 2020, the Arab League refused to condemn the UAE's decision to normalize ties with Israel. Nevertheless, "The goal all our Arab countries seek, without exception, is to end the occupation and establish an independent Palestinian state on the 1967 borders with East Jerusalem as its capital,"​

Al Jazeera. 9 September 2020.​

I don't particularly want to disagree with you in relation to Israel, however, to ignore Palestinians, to to use sentences like "They have neither a legal or moral obligation to so-called Palestinians." seems at least partisan, if not derogatory.

The United Arab Emirates does recognise Israel and has normalised relations with them. They also recognise Palestine and have diplomatic relations with them.

I don't think it is easy, but simply dismissing Palestine out of existence will not resolve the problem.

What does Palestinian existence mean?

They too are human beings made in the image and after the likeness of God. The current iteration of Israel is to some extent a manufactured solution, and whilst part of the rise of 19th-century Zionism was built on the Jew's historic aspiration to return to the land of their historic origins yet much of the truth of Jewish History is lived in diaspora, and it is a testimony for the religious, cultural and ethnic ties to one another and to God that accounts for their survival.

This is about a land mass. And it seems you are tying that land mass to their existence? If they would live in Gaza, and made a state there, why do Palestinians, or anyone else speak of them not existing? This seems a/the problem.

 

[Philip_B]

What does Palestinian existence mean?

This is about a land mass. And it seems you are tying that land mass to their existence? If they would live in Gaza, and made a state there, why do Palestinians, or anyone else speak of them not existing? This seems a/the problem.

This is about 'homeland'. Now that is not specifically about land mass, however, it is about place and belonging and is a natural aspiration of humankind. We have something of around 60 million refugees, asylum seekers, and internally displaced persons on the planet at the moment. The tragedy of statelessness is that you deny that sense of belonging.

We were not made to be refugees, just as much as we were not made to be slaves.

When it comes to the Palestinians I believe you should start with the understanding that they too are children of Abraham.

 

[ralliann]

This is about 'homeland'. Now that is not specifically about land mass, however, it is about place and belonging and is a natural aspiration of humankind. We have something of around 60 million refugees, asylum seekers, and internally displaced persons on the planet at the moment. The tragedy of statelessness is that you deny that sense of belonging.

We were not made to be refugees, just as much as we were not made to be slaves.

When it comes to the Palestinians I believe you should start with the understanding that they too are children of Abraham.

Not a peep about jew's, offering Palestinians a two state solution, which they refuse all the above to Jew's in return.
I simply asked why that is ok to you, or legit to you.
For those of us in Christ
We are strangers and sojourners here, our citizenship is in heaven, as we are all Children of promise to Abarham.

 

[Philip_B]

Not a peep about jew's, offering Palestinians a two state solution, which they refuse all the above to Jew's in return.
I simply asked why that is ok to you, or legit to you.
For those of us in Christ
We are strangers and sojourners here, our citizenship is in heaven, as we are all Children of promise to Abarham.

I am deeply conscious that Israel's offers have not always been as simple nor as acceptable solutions as you suggest. The viability of the Gaza Strip is problematic and it is only 365 sq km with a population of over 2 million people. Israel has consistently supported settlements in the West Bank which they have proceeded to 'defend' as disputed territory, where the dispute is really about Israel's incursion into Palestinian Territory.

I am neither pro-Israel nor pro-Palestinian. This situation is extremely complex and is not helped by simplistic analysis.

 

[ralliann]

I am deeply conscious that Israel's offers have not always been as simple nor as acceptable solutions as you suggest. The viability of the Gaza Strip is problematic and it is only 365 sq km with a population of over 2 million people. Israel has consistently supported settlements in the West Bank which they have proceeded to 'defend' as disputed territory, where the dispute is really about Israel's incursion into Palestinian Territory.

I am neither pro-Israel nor pro-Palestinian. This situation is extremely complex and is not helped by simplistic analysis.

When, were the Palestinians not hostile to Israel, and threatening them?
The Palestinians Are not native to the land, they have a homeland somewhere. Where is it? Why aren't their brethren allowing them to come home?

 

[Philip_B]

When, were the Palestinians not hostile to Israel, and threatening them?
The Palestinians Are not native to the land, they have a homeland somewhere. Where is it? Why aren't their brethren allowing them to come home?

Palestinians (Arabic: الفلسطينيون, al-Filasṭīniyyūn; Hebrew: פָלַסְטִינִים, Fālasṭīnīm) or Palestinian people (الشعب الفلسطيني, ash-sha‘b al-Filasṭīnī), also referred to as Palestinian Arabs (العرب الفلسطينيون, al-ʿArab al-Filasṭīniyyūn), are an ethnonational group descending from peoples who have inhabited the region of Palestine over the millennia, and who are today culturally and linguistically Arab.
Palestinians - Wikipedia

The Palestinians by any reasonable reckoning are native to the land. This is their homeland. That is really why this is not going to have a simple solution. The children of Hagar and Keturah are just as much children of Abraham as the children born to Sarah.

I know it is around 15 pages, but I would seriously commend the Wikipedia Article I referenced above.

 

[ralliann]

Palestinians (Arabic: الفلسطينيون, al-Filasṭīniyyūn; Hebrew: פָלַסְטִינִים, Fālasṭīnīm) or Palestinian people (الشعب الفلسطيني, ash-sha‘b al-Filasṭīnī), also referred to as Palestinian Arabs (العرب الفلسطينيون, al-ʿArab al-Filasṭīniyyūn), are an ethnonational group descending from peoples who have inhabited the region of Palestine over the millennia, and who are today culturally and linguistically Arab.
Palestinians - Wikipedia

The Palestinians by any reasonable reckoning are native to the land. This is their homeland. That is really why this is not going to have a simple solution. The children of Hagar and Keturah are just as much children of Abraham as the children born to Sarah.

I know it is around 15 pages, but I would seriously commend the Wikipedia Article I referenced above.

Ok, but they are not native to the land of Israel. They can go back home.

 

[Philip_B]

Ok, but they are not native to the land of Israel. They can go back home.

Please Explain. And I would like that explanation to include a description of where home is for Palestinians, please.

 

[ralliann]

Please Explain. And I would like that explanation to include a description of where home is for Palestinians, please.

Among the Arabs. Why won't you address this? Why are you defending foreigners claiming land not theirs?

 

[JosephZ]

Ok, but they are not native to the land of Israel. They can go back home.

Palestinian Christians in Gaza can trace their linage to the first followers of Jesus.

 

[adrianmonk]

Among the Arabs. Why won't you address this? Why are you defending foreigners claiming land not theirs?

Maybe because they are not foreigners ? How are Jews from Europe natives of the land, but the Arab population living there for generations are not ?

 

[ralliann]

Palestinian Christians in Gaza can trace their linage to the first followers of Jesus.

That has nothing to do with this.

 

[ralliann]

Maybe because they are not foreigners ?

They are foreigners to the land of lsrael.

How are Jews from Europe natives of the land, but the Arab population living there for generations are not ?

The same way Arabs are native to their lands. Israeli's have also been there for generations.
Why are you supporting Israel's destruction?

 

[Philip_B]

Among the Arabs. Why won't you address this? Why are you defending foreigners claiming land not theirs?

I am not defending foreigners claiming land that is not their own. Your argument is largely a-historical. This land is their (Palestinian) land as much as it is the land of the Israelites. This is the matter that you are not addressing. And I can but wonder what you mean when you say 'Among the Arabs'. The region of Palestine is surrounded by Arabic Nations, and member states of the Arab League, so I guess they are among the Arabs already. So exactly who are the foreigners and what land are they claiming that is not theirs?

I can only conclude that you are operating off what you believe to be an unquestionable truth that we do not understand. Could I recommend to you, and all those who are interested in reading about the Origins of the Palestinian People that you read the Wikipedia Article that I referenced earlier, and here it is again.

Palestinians - Wikipedia

Now, to be clear, I am not supporting Hamas, nor commending deeds of terror and mayhem, however, I don't think Israel's unquestioned right to defend itself extends to a free pass to engage in acts which appear to have had little concern for civilians.

That has nothing to do with this.

I am not sure why you would think 2-3000 years of occupation is irrelevant.

They are foreigners to the land of lsrael.

That is quite probably not true, and Israel itself, outside of Gaza and the West Bank has over 2 million Palestinians, many of who have Israeli Passports and documents.

The same way Arabs are native to their lands. Israeli's have also been there for generations.

For clarity could you please explain what you think is Israel's Land and what is Palestinian Land, or Arab Land? I would love to say I was asking for a friend, however, the truth is I am assuming that you are not being unreasonable and that you have a clear idea of what you see as Israel.

 

[ralliann]

I am not defending foreigners claiming land that is not their own. Your argument is largely a-historical. This land is their (Palestinian) land as much as it is the land of the Israelites.

The Palestinians "from the river to the sea". They want them dead.

This is the matter that you are not addressing.

The Palestinians want them dead.

And I can but wonder what you mean when you say 'Among the Arabs'. The region of Palestine is surrounded by Arabic Nations, and member states of the Arab League, so I guess they are among the Arabs already. So exactly who are the foreigners and what land are they claiming that is not theirs?

They have been offered a state, but Hamas/Palestinians want Israel dead

I can only conclude that you are operating off what you believe to be an unquestionable truth that we do not understand.

Palestinians want them dead.

Could I recommend to you, and all those who are interested in reading about the Origins of the Palestinian People that you read the Wikipedia Article that I referenced earlier, and here it is again.

Palestinians - Wikipedia

Now, to be clear, I am not supporting Hamas, nor commending deeds of terror and mayhem, however, I don't think Israel's unquestioned right to defend itself extends to a free pass to engage in acts which appear to have had little concern for civilians.

The Palestinians/Hamas want them dead

I am not sure why you would think 2-3000 years of occupation is irrelevant.

That is quite probably not true, and Israel itself, outside of Gaza and the West Bank has over 2 million Palestinians, many of who have Israeli Passports and documents.

The Palestinians/ Hamas want them dead

For clarity could you please explain what you think is Israel's Land and what is Palestinian Land, or Arab Land? I would love to say I was asking for a friend, however, the truth is I am assuming that you are not being unreasonable and that you have a clear idea of what you see as Israel.

The Palestinians want Israel dead and gone, from the river to the sea. I am done with this conversation. Repeating ourselves is not going to change anything.