Israel-Hamas Thread II

[rjs330]

stated what should be obvious to any person: just because an entity or a person is engaged in self-defense does not, for that specific reason provide justification for any conceivable response they may undertake.

For what purpose did you make the statement then if you were not referring to Israel? Were you not indicating they were acting inappropriately and then trying to justify those actions? What was your point?

Again this is obvious. If person A attacks person B, person A does have a right to defend himself against person B. But that does not mean that it is morally acceptable for person A to kill all the members of person B's family. If, repeat if, person A has a solid argument to the effect that all the members of person B's family will ultimately try to kill person A then, and only then could there be any reasonable justification for person A trying to kill all the members of person B's family. And though I suspect you will try to argue this pattern is indeed at play in the current conflict, I am very skeptical you will be able to make the case.

Again are you comparing Israel to the person here. Are you indicating that Israel is "killing all the attackers family? You are going to have to.make that argument. I don't need to argue anything. You do. You have to make the claim first then we can discuss it. So talk plainly.

 

[Philip_B]

Repeating ourselves is not going to change anything.

Shalom

 

[rjs330]

Palestinian Christians in Gaza can trace their linage to the first followers of Jesus.

Messianic Jews can do the same. What's your point?

 

[ralliann]

For what purpose did you make the statement then if you were not referring to Israel? Were you not indicating they were acting inappropriately and then trying to justify those actions? What was your point?

Again are you comparing Israel to the person here. Are you indicating that Israel is "killing all the attackers family? You are going to have to.make that argument. I don't need to argue anything. You do. You have to make the claim first then we can discuss it. So talk plainly.

And they still have hostages. Americans as well. Just incredible. This is why there can be no peace with "Palestinians".

 

[Philip_B]

Messianic Jews can do the same. What's your point?

The point was made about a claim that Palestinians do not belong in the region. and that they should go back to where they came from. Absolutely Jews can and do make the same claim, and it is entirely appropriate that they do, but therein lies the problem.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Now hamas is reduced to threatening death to their hostages......
3:38-4:05 minutes

 

[adrianmonk]

They are foreigners to the land of lsrael.

The same way Arabs are native to their lands. Israeli's have also been there for generations.

Can you explain ? The country of Israel has only existed since 1948.

Why are you supporting Israel's destruction?

How does my question asking you to explain your view that Palestinians are not native to their lands compared to European Jews lead you to this question ?

 

[Valletta]

Can you explain ? The country of Israel has only existed since 1948.

How does my question asking you to explain your view that Palestinians are not native to their lands compared to European Jews lead you to this question ?

Israel began over three thousand years ago. A United Nations solution in 1948 was violated by jihadists.

 

[ralliann]

Can you explain ? The country of Israel has only existed since 1948.

This has nothing to do with it. At one time Palestine as a country did not exist either.
This seems to be the same idea as the numbers game with the war. Palestinians kill so many Jew's, Israel can kill only that many Palestinians. Why do Palestinian's get to set the number? Who judges the justice of war by that anyway?

How does my question asking you to explain your view that Palestinians are not native to their lands compared to European Jews lead you to this question ?

Because Jew's have always been present in the land. And when many returned to the land, they were all Palestinian's. It reflected a geography, not a race of people. Since Jew's living in Palestine were also Palestinian's. How is it you refer to their origin as Europe? Israeli's don't live in Europe. Some Israeli's never left the land anyway.
So "palestinians" also came from Arabia, Syria, etc. Yet you insist to disregard that. And violence towards Israel was and is the result.
Be consistent in your argument.

 

[JosephZ]

Israel began over three thousand years ago.

There had never been a state of Israel prior to 1948.

 

[Philip_B]

Because Jew's have always been present in the land. And when many returned to the land, they were all Palestinian's. It reflected a geography, not a race of people. Since Jew's living in Palestine were also Palestinian's. How is it you refer to their origin as Europe? Israeli's don't live in Europe. Some Israeli's never left the land anyway.
So "palestinians" also came from Arabia, Syria, etc. Yet you insist to disregard that. And violence towards Israel was and is the result.
Be consistent in your argument.

The Biblical evidence, the cultural evidence, and the DNA evidence all suggest that Jews and Palestinians are ethnically and genetically the same. The Jews were subject to a diaspora in the period of Roman governance, and that is sad, and a great testament to the strength of their cultural heritage and religious conviction and trust in God is that they did not lose their identity. I have no objection to the return of the Jews to the land of Abraham and the promise. HOWEVER! There is no justice in claiming that the people who lived in the land for all that time have no say and no place in the land of their fathers. If there is no justice there will be no true and lasting peace. Your claim that Palestinians came from Arabia and Syria simply does not stand up to scrutiny.

 

[Philip_B]

There had never been a state of Israel prior to 1948.

I am not sure that equates with the Biblical record. Statehood in that sense is a modern construct, and perhaps the better ancient descriptor might be nationhood. Israel at various times from the conquest of Jerusalem is reasonably described as a nation.

It is more about the notion of place, heritage, and belonging, that this speaks of. It is not about what I own. but more about where I belong.

I am not dismissing the claims of Israel, and neither am I dismissing the claims of the Palestinian people.

 

[Valletta]

There had never been a state of Israel prior to 1948.

Joshua 1: 1-4 After the death of Moses the servant of the Lord, the Lord said to Joshua the son of Nun, Moses’ minister, “Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, you and all this people, into the land which I am giving to them, to the people of Israel. Every place that the sole of your foot will tread upon I have given to you, as I promised to Moses. From the wilderness and this Lebanon as far as the great river, the river Euphra′tes, all the land of the Hittites to the Great Sea toward the going down of the sun shall be your territory. RSVCE

 

[ralliann]

The Biblical evidence, the cultural evidence, and the DNA evidence all suggest that Jews and Palestinians are ethnically and genetically the same. The Jews were subject to a diaspora in the period of Roman governance, and that is sad, and a great testament to the strength of their cultural heritage and religious conviction and trust in God is that they did not lose their identity. I have no objection to the return of the Jews to the land of Abraham and the promise. HOWEVER! There is no justice in claiming that the people who lived in the land for all that time have no say and no place in the land of their fathers. If there is no justice there will be no true and lasting peace. Your claim that Palestinians came from Arabia and Syria simply does not stand up to scrutiny.

Look, they want Jew's dead. What you have a problem with or not, has nothing to do with this.
They want Jew's dead.

 

[Philip_B]

Look, they want Jew's dead. What you have a problem with or not, has nothing to do with this.
They want Jew's dead.

Whilst I am not sure who 'they' is in these two sentences, I am also not sure of the relevance of the claim.

 

[Vambram]

Whilst I am not sure who 'they' is in these two sentences, I am also not sure of the relevance of the claim.

"They" are Hamas, Iranian mullahs, Iranian ayatollahs, the Houthis, and all of the rest of the jihadists.

 

[ralliann]

"They" are Hamas, Iranian mullahs, Iranian ayatollahs, the Houthis, and all of the rest of the jihadists.

Evidently that is irrelevant......to some

 

[Philip_B]

"They" are Hamas, Iranian mullahs, Iranian ayatollahs, the Houthis, and all of the rest of the jihadists.

Evidently that is irrelevant......to some

John 3:16-18
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

 

[adrianmonk]

Because Jew's have always been present in the land. And when many returned to the land, they were all Palestinian's. It reflected a geography, not a race of people. Since Jew's living in Palestine were also Palestinian's. How is it you refer to their origin as Europe? Israeli's don't live in Europe. Some Israeli's never left the land anyway.
So "palestinians" also came from Arabia, Syria, etc. Yet you insist to disregard that. And violence towards Israel was and is the result.
Be consistent in your argument.

I never claimed that there weren't Jews in the land prior to the creation of Israel. What I am claiming is that there were others as well (Arabs, Druze) as well. If it is just a matter of geography, then why are non Jewish residents considered foreign and need to be deported ?

My question is: Why do you believe that Arabs are foreigners in the occupied territories in Israel whereas Jews who migrate from all over the world settling these occupied territories are native ? Especially since the Arabs have been there for centuries.

And rather than answering that question, you instead ask me why I support Israel's destruction.

 

[Vambram]

John 3:16-18
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

One of my most favorite passages of Scripture. Those verses are my signature on christianforums.com

Unfortunately, those verses don't stop the jihadists from killing Jews.