Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Philip_B]

It was worded as if it were a quote.




Hamas' strategy isn't unique and has been used by terrorist groups in many parts of the world. Hamas needed to launch a terrorist attack that would result in an overreaction by the Israeli government, and they succeeded in doing that. I gave the reasons for why Hamas had to do this in post #1,883.

The IDF's annihilation of Gaza was exactly what Hamas wanted and expected. As a result of the reports of destruction and human suffering coming out of Gaza, many westerners, out of feelings of compassion and empathy, not gullibility, have demanded a ceasefire and have a desire for their governments to stop supporting Israel. This was just one emotional response Hamas was hoping for. Hamas also knew that an overreaction by Israel would result in angering the Arab and Muslim communities as a whole. As a result of that emotional response, and to quote an article that was shared earlier, "Hamas has successfully positioned itself across some parts of the Arab and Muslim world as a defender of the Palestinian cause and an effective fighter against Israel." Finally, and perhaps the most important emotions Hamas was looking to exploit, were those of frustration, anger, and hopelessness among the Palestinians themselves. These emotions have resulted in a resurgence of Palestinian support for Hamas and an abundance of potential recruits for future acts of terror against Israel.

None of the emotions described above and felt by many around the world discount the horrific and despicable terrorist attack Hamas carried out against Israel, but they do show the potential danger of committing an atrocity to avenge another atrocity, as Israel has done and continues to do.

One of my concerns here is that I am not sure that Hamas is a lead actor in this conflict. Logic says if you poke the bear hard enough it will respond. Chances are fairly high that will not play out well for the one who poked the Bear. I suspect other players have set up Hamas to do this, and are waiting to see what happens, and then play another card. It seems the most likely candidate for that player at the moment is Iran.

 

[Laodicean60]

They didn't hit a hospital accidentally through mistargeting or misidentification. Justifying an intentional attack on a civilian medical facility can't be waved away with "stuff happens".

is this the hospital you are talking about?

Revisiting the Gaza Hospital Explosion

We look at the evidence for who is responsible.

www.nytimes.com

 

[civilwarbuff]

Is there some reason you bolded that for emphasis?

Because that is one of the main causes of fog of war.....constantly changing scenario......you hit your target now when you have good reason to believe it is there because in 30 minutes (or less) it will be gone.

They asserted it was, but they have produced no convincing evidence of it.

And you have provided convincing evidence that it was not? Just because they can't drag out bodies in hamas uniforms wearing tee-shirts saying 'Shoot me. I'm a terrorist' doesn't mean that some of the people there aren't. The innocent die with the guilty. And please don't try to pretend to hide behind 'oh, those poor infants'; those deaths belong directly on the head of hamas.....which YOU never seem to blame them for.

 

[Pommer]

One of my concerns here is that I am not sure that Hamas is a lead actor in this conflict. Logic says if you poke the bear hard enough it will respond. Chances are fairly high that will not play out well for the one who poked the Bear. I suspect other players have set up Hamas to do this, and are waiting to see what happens, and then play another card. It seems the most likely candidate for that player at the moment is Iran.

Israel is a wild animal that will ravage anyone that pokes it too hard?

 

[JosephZ]

The prospect for success is a prudential judgement. If any of the above objectives are reasonably achievable in the minds of the Israeli then going to war is just. As an historical fact, the US did militarily destroy two terrorist groups: Al Qaeda and ISIS.

The United States and its allies were unable to destroy Al Qaeda and ISIS. Here's what the latest Bureau of Counterterrorism Annual Report that was released just yesterday has to say about these two terrorist groups:

[Al Qaeda] and its affiliates remained resilient and determined, even following the death of its leader Ayman al-Zawahiri in August. Senior AQ leaders continued to oversee a global network to target the United States and U.S. interests, particularly in Africa and the Middle East. In East Africa, al-Shabaab (AS) sustained de facto control over significant portions of south central Somalia and moved freely in neighboring countries. AS also maintained the capability to conduct high-profile attacks in the region, including against U.S. citizens and infrastructure, and aspired to coordinate attacks against the U.S. homeland and Europe.

ISIS maintained an enduring global enterprise, promoting a large-scale terrorism campaign across the Middle East, Africa, and Asia. While the death of ISIS’ leader Abu Ibrahim al-Hashimi al-Qurayshi in February marked an important milestone against the terrorist group, ISIS remained capable of conducting large-scale attacks. In 2022, ISIS maintained a significant underground operational structure and conducted terrorist operations throughout Iraq and Syria.

In West Africa, ISIS affiliates increasingly expanded across borders and coordinated asymmetric attacks, including a July prison break near the U.S. Embassy in Abuja, Nigeria. Additionally, ISIS expanded its recruitment and operations across key regions, growing its global network to approximately 20 branches and affiliates. ISIS leveraged its network, operatives, and propaganda to inspire homegrown terrorist attacks in the West, including a June attack by an ISIS supporter in Oslo, Norway, that killed two and injured 21.

 

[Bradskii]

The United States and its allies were unable to destroy Al Qaeda and ISIS. Here's what the latest Bureau of Counterterrorism Annual Report that was released just yesterday has to say about these two terrorist groups:

If ISIS has been destroyed then the meeting noted below was a complete waste of time: U.S. Officials on Jihadi Threat in 2023

'In a joint communique with the ministers of the Global Coalition to Defeat ISIS on June 8, 2023: “Foreign Ministers of the Global Coalition to Defeat Daesh/ISIS convened in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, today at the invitation of Saudi Minister of Foreign Affairs Faisal bin Farhan Al-Saud and United States Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken.

The Global Coalition is the largest international coalition and remains intent on defeating Daesh/ISIS anywhere it operates.”

 

[Valletta]

As everyone knows, Hamas seized control of Gaza. They are the authorities. We may not entirely trust their figures, but there are no other authorities to appeal to.

They are terrorists who think nothing of killing babies. And Israel now controls a large portion of Gaza, and they are now an authority to give us the numbers. That being said, as to the issue of numbers, how many of the dead does Hamas currently say were Hamas fighters?

 

[rjs330]

Using the hospital to...

get treatment for wounded hostages and Hamas fighters? That does not make the hospital a military target.

What other use do you have evidence for?

What's your evidence that's all they used it for? Or even that they used for that at all?

 

[essentialsaltes]

is this the hospital you are talking about?

No, we are discussing Al-Shifa, not al-Ahli.

 

[essentialsaltes]

And you have provided convincing evidence that it was not?

The burden of proof is on the people who killed innocent civilians.

In another setting, and in the fulness of time, maybe, the burden of proof will be on the war crimes prosecutors.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

In another setting, and in the fulness of time, maybe, the burden of proof will be on the war crimes prosecutors.

Thank goodness that Hamas is a non government and non state and can never be charged with war crimes. They will always be free to gouge out eyes and cut off breasts as long as "reasons".

 

[Valletta]

The burden of proof is on the people who killed innocent civilians.

Indeed, Hamas killed many innocent civilians, and they need to be held accountable. Has Hamas admitted how many of their terrorists have been killed? It is hard to overcome their propaganda, I would think a high percentage of the total killed were part of Hamas.

 

[Philip_B]

Indeed, Hamas killed many innocent civilians, and they need to be held accountable. Has Hamas admitted how many of their terrorists have been killed? It is hard to overcome their propaganda, I would think a high percentage of the total killed were part of Hamas.

And we know at least three of those killed were Israeli Hostages - friendly fire is not that friendly when it is coming at you.

 

[Valletta]

And we know at least three of those killed were Israeli Hostages - friendly fire is not that friendly when it is coming at you.

Yes, hostage situations often do not end well for the hostages.

 

[Bradskii]

Thank goodness that Hamas is a non government and non state and can never be charged with war crimes. They will always be free to gouge out eyes and cut off breasts as long as "reasons".

You don't pass on charging someone for a war crime just because the other guy did something worse.

If you've read enough of this thread you might have noticed a regular sequence of events. One person suggests that, for example, the civilian death toll is too high to justify. And then someone else will give So's law a run for their money and claim that therefore you hate Israel and want to see it destroyed. Utterly illogical.

Then someone will point out something atrocious that Israel might have done and we get the other person pointing out that Hamas has done much worse. As if we are comparing one with the other to see where the blame might lie. We are not. Nothing excuses what Hamas has done and anything Israel does will not be tempered by what Hamas has done.

Both are schoolyard level arguments.

 

[Valletta]

Ivanka was seen holding back tears when an IDF soldier told the couple about a story of an Israeli citizen who was gunned down by the Islamic terrorists while she was trying to escape her home through a window.
At the end of their scheduled tour of the destroyed village, the notable husband and wife presented commemorative medallions to those who defended Kibbutz Kfar Aza. They thanked them for their bravery and heroism in protecting the Israeli people.

Ivanka Trump And Husband Jared Kushner Hear Testimonies From Residents, Soldiers In Israel

Ivanka Trump and her husband Jared Kushner visited Israel to express solidarity with the Jewish nation at war.

www.oann.com

 

[civilwarbuff]

The burden of proof is on the people who killed innocent civilians.

You must have evidence that convinces you that the hospital was not used by hamas for military purposes, right? Otherwise you are simply a hamas denier; that only Israel is a bad guy. So once more, what evidence do you have that hamas did not use the hospital for military purposes? I have Israeli boots on the ground there (whether you believe them or not). It is time to show your cards otherwise you are just bluffing.

 

[o_mlly]

Finally, and perhaps the most important emotions Hamas was looking to exploit ...

On this fact, we agree. "Gullible" are those whose emotions can so easily be exploited.

 

[o_mlly]

The United States and its allies were unable to destroy Al Qaeda and ISIS.

What I posted was "militarily destroy" as in their present capacity to cause harm. That is all one can do. In all of human history, evil has never been eradicated.

 

[o_mlly]

These emotions have resulted in a resurgence of Palestinian support for Hamas and an abundance of potential recruits for future acts of terror against Israel.

Your prediction may come to pass. However, as I read the reports, the endemic hate that Gazans feel toward Israel may be mitigating in the realization that that hate has brought about such awful carnage and human suffering. If so then the Gazans may reject Hamas and its exploitation of that hatred. Will good prevail over evil? I believe so.