Israel-Hamas Thread II

[JosephZ]

Hamas was correct: there are many gullible Westerners whose emotions rule them.

Do you have a source for this? I don't recall any Hamas spokesperson saying that.

 

[civilwarbuff]

A great example of how many gazan absolutely hate hamas. (I'm being sarcastic in case it does not come across)

Another good vid. (hamas supporters and believers you have my permission to not view this. Wouldn't want your world wrecked)

Israelis advocate for hostages still held by Hamas in Gaza

Meirav Leshem Gonen's daughter, Romi, has not yet been released by Hamas. She wants to make sure the world does not forget that.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[essentialsaltes]

Of course they were justified we KNOW for a fact that Hamas uses hospitals.

If we grant that Hamas uses (some) hospitals, that doesn't justify attacking any specific hospital in Gaza.

 

[essentialsaltes]

So? You expect them to be right 100% of the time?

When you're going to kill civilians at a hospital or a school, yes.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Palestinian poll shows a rise in Hamas support​

44% in the West Bank said they supported Hamas, up from just 12% in September.

US intelligence analysis warns Hamas’ influence has grown since its attack on Israel​

As Israel’s relentless air campaign has killed thousands of civilians inside Gaza, Hamas – which is designated as a terrorist group by the United States and Europe – has been able to cast itself as the lone armed group fighting back against a brutal oppressor killing women and children. Officials familiar with the different assessments say the group has successfully positioned itself across some parts of the Arab and Muslim world as a defender of the Palestinian cause and an effective fighter against Israel.

Hamas’ growing influence comes in the wake of its ghastly October attack on Israel that killed about 1,200 men, women and children.

Before October 7, a senior administration official said, “Hamas [was] not a wildly popular organization. Today it’s more popular.”

It’s possible the conflict will do more to boost Hamas’ influence outside of Gaza than within it, where years of poor governance have bred mistrust.

A poll completed, remarkably, on October 6 found that 67% of Palestinians in Gaza reported having either “no trust at all” or “not a lot of trust” in Hamas – something that some analysts believe might have been a factor in Hamas’ motivation for the attack. Palestinians inside Gaza were more likely to blame persistent food shortages on Hamas’ leadership than on the Israeli blockade that has limited supplies into Gaza since 2007, for example.

Some analysts within the US government privately fear that Israel’s prosecution of its war against Hamas — including a punishing air campaign that has killed nearly 20,000 people, according to the Hamas-run Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza — will have the unintended effect of legitimizing Hamas politically and inspiring more terrorism.

“In this kind of a fight, the center of gravity is the civilian population,” Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said earlier this month. “And if you drive them into the arms of the enemy, you replace a tactical victory with a strategic defeat.”

 

[civilwarbuff]

When you're going to kill civilians at a hospital or a school, yes.

There is this thing called 'fog of war'. No one is ever 100% certain about any action or reaction based on the inability of gather 100% accurate information up to the latest minute. But even having that is no guarantee.

 

[civilwarbuff]

US intelligence analysis warns Hamas’ influence has grown since its attack on Israel​

As Israel’s relentless air campaign has killed thousands of civilians inside Gaza, Hamas – which is designated as a terrorist group by the United States and Europe – has been able to cast itself as the lone armed group fighting back against a brutal oppressor killing women and children. Officials familiar with the different assessments say the group has successfully positioned itself across some parts of the Arab and Muslim world as a defender of the Palestinian cause and an effective fighter against Israel.

Hamas’ growing influence comes in the wake of its ghastly October attack on Israel that killed about 1,200 men, women and children.

Before October 7, a senior administration official said, “Hamas [was] not a wildly popular organization. Today it’s more popular.”

It’s possible the conflict will do more to boost Hamas’ influence outside of Gaza than within it, where years of poor governance have bred mistrust.

A poll completed, remarkably, on October 6 found that 67% of Palestinians in Gaza reported having either “no trust at all” or “not a lot of trust” in Hamas – something that some analysts believe might have been a factor in Hamas’ motivation for the attack. Palestinians inside Gaza were more likely to blame persistent food shortages on Hamas’ leadership than on the Israeli blockade that has limited supplies into Gaza since 2007, for example.

Some analysts within the US government privately fear that Israel’s prosecution of its war against Hamas — including a punishing air campaign that has killed nearly 20,000 people, according to the Hamas-run Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza — will have the unintended effect of legitimizing Hamas politically and inspiring more terrorism.

“In this kind of a fight, the center of gravity is the civilian population,” Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said earlier this month. “And if you drive them into the arms of the enemy, you replace a tactical victory with a strategic defeat.”

Wonder if he asked the important question: Who do you blame the fighting on more: hamas for their unprovoked attack on Israel or Israel for their retaliation against hamas?

Bet that one got left out the Q&A interview. Wonder if hamas was present during those interviews? Wonder if the pollster is a hamas supporter? Bet those questions don't have an answer.

 

[o_mlly]

Do you have a source for this? I don't recall any Hamas spokesperson saying that.

Reason connects the dots reviewed in this left-leaning documentary.

Netanyahu, America & the Road to War in Gaza (full documentary) | FRONTLINE​

 

[essentialsaltes]

There is this thing called 'fog of war'.

They didn't hit a hospital accidentally through mistargeting or misidentification. Justifying an intentional attack on a civilian medical facility can't be waved away with "stuff happens".

 

[JosephZ]

Reason connects the dots reviewed in this left-leaning documentary.

So Hamas didn't say, "There are many gullible Westerners whose emotions rule them?"

 

[civilwarbuff]

They didn't hit a hospital accidentally through mistargeting or misidentification. Justifying an intentional attack on a civilian medical facility can't be waved away with "stuff happens".

I guess you didn't understand the concept of fog of war. Here's a deeper explanation:
The fog of war is a reality in all military conflict. Precision and certainty are unattainable goals, but modern military doctrine suggests a trade-off of precision and certainty for speed and agility. Militaries employ command and control (C2) systems and doctrine to partially alleviate the fog of war.

The term also applies to the experience of individual soldiers in battle: often cited is the pure confusion of direction, location, and perspective on a battlefield. Officers and soldiers become separated, orders become confused and subject to revision with poor communication. Sounds and vision are limited from the perspective of the individual and may not be easily resolved, resulting in a continuing uncertainty, a perceptual "fog".

The fog of war has been decreasing as intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance technology is improving. In 2016, Chief of Staff of the United States Army Gen. Mark A. Milley stated that "On the future battlefield, if you stay in one place longer than two or three hours, you will be dead... With enemy drones and sensors constantly on the hunt for targets, there won't even be time for four hours' unbroken sleep."[5]

Fog of war - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Laodicean60]

you omitted the word "crime"

Any war is a crime against humanity!

 

[o_mlly]

So Hamas didn't say, "There are many gullible Westerners whose emotions rule them?"

Did you watch the video?

 

[JosephZ]

Did you watch the video?

No. I'm not going to watch an hour and twenty-five minute video to find a quote from Hamas that says, "There are many gullible Westerners whose emotions rule them" or something along those lines. Can you give me a time stamp as to where such a quote may be found in the video?

 

[rjs330]

When you're going to kill civilians at a hospital or a school, yes.

Did you happen to miss that Hamas was at the hospital and evidence was found that Hamas has been there? So they were 100% correct that Hamas was using the hospital. What they weren't 100% on was the extent they were using at a major military command post. So the strike was legit, even though they didn't find a major command post. The military intelligence was incorrect. Their conclusions about the activity there was wrong. They were right about the activity there. They just were wrong in their assessment of what the activity meant.

In the fog of war it's pretty hard to get it 100% right a 100% of the time. Especially when you are fighting an army that dresses in civilian clothes and looks like a civilian.

 

[rjs330]

No. I'm not going to watch an hour and twenty-five minute video to find a quote from Hamas that says, "There are many gullible Westerners whose emotions rule them" or something along those lines. Can you give me a time stamp as to where such a quote may be found in the video?

Look don't view the video if you don't want to. But if you don't then you can't refute his claim. Just admit you can't refute his claim. You can just tell him you don't believe him. Because that's what you are saying.

The problem is he very well could be correct and you just chose to ignore it. He presented evidence and you ignored it.

 

[o_mlly]

I'm not going to watch an hour and twenty-five minute video ...

I did not post the phrase as a Hamas quote. I posted that as the most reasonable explanation for Hamas' act on Oct. 7.

And, as this thread attests, Hamas was correct in their assessment.

Watch the video.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I guess you didn't understand the concept of fog of war. Here's a deeper explanation:
if you stay in one place longer than two or three hours, you will be dead... With enemy drones and sensors constantly on the hunt for targets, there won't even be time for four hours' unbroken sleep."[5]

Is there some reason you bolded that for emphasis? I agree, the newborns in the ICU stayed in one place, and some of them are now dead. But I don't see the relevance.

With drones and sensors, the IDF should have known in two or three hours whether the hospital was a legitimate target. They asserted it was, but they have produced no convincing evidence of it.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Did you happen to miss that Hamas was at the hospital and evidence was found that Hamas has been there? So they were 100% correct that Hamas was using the hospital.

Using the hospital to...

get treatment for wounded hostages and Hamas fighters? That does not make the hospital a military target.

What other use do you have evidence for?

 

[JosephZ]

I did not post the phrase as a Hamas quote.

It was worded as if it were a quote.

Hamas was correct: there are many gullible Westerners whose emotions rule them.

I posted that as the most reasonable explanation for Hamas' act on Oct. 7.

Hamas' strategy isn't unique and has been used by terrorist groups in many parts of the world. Hamas needed to launch a terrorist attack that would result in an overreaction by the Israeli government, and they succeeded in doing that. I gave the reasons for why Hamas had to do this in post #1,883.

The IDF's annihilation of Gaza was exactly what Hamas wanted and expected. As a result of the reports of destruction and human suffering coming out of Gaza, many westerners, out of feelings of compassion and empathy, not gullibility, have demanded a ceasefire and have a desire for their governments to stop supporting Israel. This was just one emotional response Hamas was hoping for. Hamas also knew that an overreaction by Israel would result in angering the Arab and Muslim communities as a whole. As a result of that emotional response, and to quote an article that was shared earlier, "Hamas has successfully positioned itself across some parts of the Arab and Muslim world as a defender of the Palestinian cause and an effective fighter against Israel." Finally, and perhaps the most important emotions Hamas was looking to exploit, were those of frustration, anger, and hopelessness among the Palestinians themselves. These emotions have resulted in a resurgence of Palestinian support for Hamas and an abundance of potential recruits for future acts of terror against Israel.

None of the emotions described above and felt by many around the world discount the horrific and despicable terrorist attack Hamas carried out against Israel, but they do show the potential danger of committing an atrocity to avenge another atrocity, as Israel has done and continues to do.