Isn't war evil?

[LordsRanger]

Hmm...as I said war is evil.
Situational ethics do not disturb me over-much.
At the risk of confusing Lord yet again,,, I'll stand by my earlier posts to that effect.
and try once again...
A war of defense uses the evil of war for a neccessary end.
Peace should still be the goal.
An unneccessary war uses evil for evil.
That must be fought against. Wage peace instead.
I seems like a simple observation to me.

Well, dh, I surely do not disagree with the above statement.
However, the loving Lord and righteous God that I know does not support war perpetrated and protracted for an unrighteous cause by unrighteous nations.

Once again, IMHO.

I think most of us are aware, from the Bible, that God has historicaly waged a lot of war.
Not to mention being invoked as a supporter or leader of practicaly every war his followers were ever involved in.

In my view war being evil and God waging war are not contradictions or even inconsistencies.
A strong case has been made before that God uses evil.
That is not such a difficult concept.

Who's to say that war is evil when God himself wages it? He is the righteous one.

 

[signalerror]

Is war evil?
is it less evil when god ordanes it?
is it right?

From a moral standpoint I find war to be a lose-lose situation and something I "WISH" the world could do without.
But from a logical standpoint war is a thing that will never go away.
But back to the topic at hand...

Do I think war is evil? Nope. War is mearly a situation that people get placed in. Its the actions IN war that can be evil.

 

[daidhaid]

Is war evil?
is it less evil when god ordanes it?
is it right?

From a moral standpoint I find war to be a lose-lose situation and something I "WISH" the world could do without.
But from a logical standpoint war is a thing that will never go away.
But back to the topic at hand...

Do I think war is evil? Nope. War is mearly a situation that people get placed in. Its the actions IN war that can be evil.

I think your heart is in the right place but you are to calm in accepting war as inevitable and it's actions just what happens.

Young folks can easily afford the energy to be idealistic, why not consider that peace can be waged..?
So,,, what if all war isn't ended?
What if some of the unambigious extra-evil wars are prevented.
What if some of the wars end sooner or do not spread.
What if governments try harder and lie less.

I think that saying war isn't evil only the actions in it can be, is also missing or dodging the point.
war is pretty harsh and the closer you get to it the better you can see the evil in it's nature.
We can avoid seeing by believing in the cause of the war,,, but that is like a tragic love that does not see or admit the reality of who or what they love.
Hearts are hardened and eyes may be blinded but
what is still is.

The touch of war is unmistakable and powerful.
The lure to it can be powerful and seductive.
Its rewards can be large and heady but fleeting and in vain.
It's end result pain regret and physical / spiritual debiliation.

Gee it does sound like sin.

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

I think your heart is in the right place but you are to calm in accepting war as inevitable and it's actions just what happens.

Young folks can easily afford the energy to be idealistic, why not consider that peace can be waged..?
So,,, what if all war isn't ended?
What if some of the unambigious extra-evil wars are prevented.
What if some of the wars end sooner or do not spread.
What if governments try harder and lie less.

I think that saying war isn't evil only the actions in it can be, is also missing or dodging the point.
war is pretty harsh and the closer you get to it the better you can see the evil in it's nature.
We can avoid seeing by believing in the cause of the war,,, but that is like a tragic love that does not see or admit the reality of who or what they love.
Hearts are hardened and eyes may be blinded but
what is still is.

The touch of war is unmistakable and powerful.
The lure to it can be powerful and seductive.
Its rewards can be large and heady but fleeting and in vain.
It's end result pain regret and physical / spiritual debiliation.

Gee it does sound like sin.

Just a couple of things....

1. You cannot seperate Jesus from God, they are the same, so the title of you post is flawed.
2. Every war has ended in peace and sacrifice. Just like sin. Once sin actually ends, you have realized your errors, but in the end, you find yourself closer to God, yet still hurt due to what you have just done. The end result of war is positive if headed towards the right goal.

"war is pretty harsh and the closer you get to it the better you can see the evil in it's nature."

False, there is a war in heaven, yet I thought sin cannot be in the pressence of God?
hmmm....

 

[jingwei]

When it is absolutely neccessary to go to war, God himself gives this warning:
He who kills with the sword shall be killed with the sword.

He who kills with a Kalashnikov AK 47 shall be killed by a Kalashnikov AK 47.

 

[jhollas]

Good job we don't fight with AKs!

Sorry, seriously though:
Exodus 15, v.3 - "The Lord is a man of war."
This answers some questions over God wanting war, does it not?
(I don't know, that's why I'm asking)

 

[LordsRanger]

It is only in His righteousness that he can be a man of war.

 

[daidhaid]

1. You cannot seperate Jesus from God, they are the same, so the title of you post is flawed.
2. Every war has ended in peace and sacrifice. Just like sin. Once sin actually ends, you have realized your errors, but in the end, you find yourself closer to God, yet still hurt due to what you have just done. The end result of war is positive if headed towards the right goal.

Doctrinely you, can't separate God and Jesus but , others may.
Anyway, this is a point I sometimes make to folks who preach at me the love of Jesus. Jesus sounds pretty good.
In fact, Jesus may be the coolest guy ever; but if he and the Father are the same then what is going on..?
Why was Jesus trying to make us see him as the New Deal?
Why the love your enemies message?
Why all the Peace, Love, Eucharist, and straight talk from the sermon on the mount?
If Jesus is the same as God then someone up there is faking us out.
I keep going back to the OT reading it and not liking God.
The dichotomy isn't explained away.

"war is pretty harsh and the closer you get to it the better you can see the evil in it's nature."

False, there is a war in heaven, yet I thought sin cannot be in the pressence of God?
hmmm....

Another point I was hoping someone would mention, that war first began in heaven...
The abode of God saw the first evil of rebellion against God's will.
Evil begins in heaven...
How weird is that?

If rebellion against God is also sin then sin originated in heaven.
Sin begins in heaven...
How weird is that...

And these same perfect lifeforms that knew God as the Creator of all that is and knew his power in a personal way,
because they also lived in heaven still thought they could prevail in a battle against the omnipotent Creator...
I wonder why...

How could any of that happen in heaven where God dwells?
How weird is that?
Makes no sense, must not be so.
Or God is ok with Evil, and doesn't consider war a sin.
God sure seems to wallow in war. The OT is quite graphic on that point.
That would make the God of Love and Jesus a God of War.
If that is the case then God is a seriously warped Being.
His whole story revolves around negatives.
All together a pretty substantial reason for mistrusting God.

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

Doctrinely you, can't separate God and Jesus but , others may.
Anyway, this is a point I sometimes make to folks who preach at me the love of Jesus. Jesus sounds pretty good.
In fact, Jesus may be the coolest guy ever; but if he and the Father are the same then what is going on..?
Why was Jesus trying to make us see him as the New Deal?
Why the love your enemies message?
Why all the Peace, Love, Eucharist, and straight talk from the sermon on the mount?
If Jesus is the same as God then someone up there is faking us out.
I keep going back to the OT reading it and not liking God.
The dichotomy isn't explained away.



Another point I was hoping someone would mention, that war first began in heaven...
The abode of God saw the first evil of rebellion against God's will.
Evil begins in heaven...
How weird is that?

If rebellion against God is also sin then sin originated in heaven.
Sin begins in heaven...
How weird is that...

And these same perfect lifeforms that knew God as the Creator of all that is and knew his power in a personal way,
because they also lived in heaven still thought they could prevail in a battle against the omnipotent Creator...
I wonder why...

How could any of that happen in heaven where God dwells?
How weird is that?
Makes no sense, must not be so.
Or God is ok with Evil, and doesn't consider war a sin.
God sure seems to wallow in war. The OT is quite graphic on that point.
That would make the God of Love and Jesus a God of War.
If that is the case then God is a seriously warped Being.
His whole story revolves around negatives.
All together a pretty substantial reason for mistrusting God.

"Why was Jesus trying to make us see him as the New Deal?
Why the love your enemies message?
Why all the Peace, Love, Eucharist, and straight talk from the sermon on the mount? "

These are all things to HELP PREVENT WAR, but we all know that war jsut sometimes is not preventable. When you do as Jesus taught, and still find yourself in a "war" you will not be held accountable for the actions.

"If Jesus is the same as God then someone up there is faking us out.
I keep going back to the OT reading it and not liking God.
The dichotomy isn't explained away."

Read between the lines for the dichotomy. No one is faking you out, just put the two together.

"Another point I was hoping someone would mention, that war first began in heaven...
The abode of God saw the first evil of rebellion against God's will.
Evil begins in heaven...
How weird is that? "

Everything started with God, so it's not that wierd.

"If rebellion against God is also sin then sin originated in heaven.
Sin begins in heaven...
How weird is that..."

Lucifer rebelled, and then he fought for his place for heaven. He lost cause God cannot reside in heaven. However there was still a war, so obviously war is not evil-- which I do beleive is the whole point of what I am trying to say.

"And these same perfect lifeforms that knew God as the Creator of all that is and knew his power in a personal way,
because they also lived in heaven still thought they could prevail in a battle against the omnipotent Creator...
I wonder why..."

Who ever said they were perfect?
Lucifer thoguht God was nothing without him, hence the rebellion cause lucifer thought he was getting screwed on the deal and wanted more. Hebecame prideful, which is the source of all sin.

"How could any of that happen in heaven where God dwells?
How weird is that?"

I didn't have trouble explaining it.... what is wierd is how you keep on saying "how weird is that" Keep saying that to yourself and it gets kinda freaky.

"Makes no sense, must not be so."

LOL you crack me up.

"Or God is ok with Evil, and doesn't consider war a sin.
God sure seems to wallow in war. The OT is quite graphic on that point.
That would make the God of Love and Jesus a God of War.
If that is the case then God is a seriously warped Being.
His whole story revolves around negatives.
All together a pretty substantial reason for mistrusting God."

lol well he gives you the choice to trust him...

Later

 

[jingwei]

Jesus preached peace because God can see into all futures and all possible outcomes. Had the messiah not COMMANDED total non violence we would have been no different than any other sinners. We would not be seen as the road to peace. Maybe ALLAH ACKBAR and JIHADI is the right way to praise God, in your point of view.

Of course God is a god of war, when he is going to war. If you read the revelation there has been a huge war in heaven against the unrighteous. You are forgetting the verse "vengence belongs to the Lord" so HE is a god of war. What does that have to do with you?

 

[daidhaid]

If Jesus did preach peace and the messiah comanded non-violence
why wobble back and forth on the subject of war..?
Jesus was a carpenter and a teacher,
If living a Christian life is to conform your life to what Jesus would do, why kill.
If Jesus were walking around today would he be telling us to kill?
I have a hard time seeing him do any of the stuff I have seen soldiers do.

aww you get the idea, even those of you who only think you know about war must have some faint idea what happens...
Sure I know most believers could or would do those things and much worse, people are like that in a war.
But would Jesus do it..?

I'm looking at Pro war Christians thinking that in the dark recesses of your hearts if you believe war is not evil then you must be able to envision a Jesus who wouldn't have a problem killing enemies right here right now.
Jesus could lie in wait to spring an ambush on an unsuspecting foe.
He could snipe.
Sometimes snipers try to make severe wounds because the enemy is more burdened by caring for the wounded and the cries of the wounded are more demoralizing than a quiet dead guy. Jesus would do that.
Jesus could waste a bad guy even one running away.
Jesus could use; bombs, mines, incendiaries, artillery, airpower, all that and more Jesus could put a knife in another mans guts and twist it for God.

I'm wondering about that. But since war isn't evil for most of you it may be you can have a Jesus in that mold.
Or maybe it is just that in a real life way Jesus means less to some of you than he does to a Pagan with a passing curiosity about him.
______________________________________
What is truest...

1.Since Jesus and God are somehow the same I suppose Jesus is just as bloodthirsty as God.

2.Jesus reduced all law to Love and gave us the sermon on the mount. He wants us to do stuff like forgive, turn the other cheek, love, even unto death.

______________________________________________

1.God is ok with evil and war. Neither evil or war are automatically sin.
Because God uses evil and war as he chooses.

2.God was ok with war. Just as he was ok with the Law.
However; Jesus came to fulfill prophecy and redeem mankind.
He brought a message that teaches us to love our enemies and to do good to those who hurt or despitefuly use us.

 

[daidhaid]

"


Lucifer rebelled, and then he fought for his place for heaven. He lost cause God cannot reside in heaven. However there was still a war, so obviously war is not evil-- which I do beleive is the whole point of what I am trying to say.

The point might be that because rebellion war and evil began in heaven, none of those things are in and of themselves sin.
In other words God is ok with rebellion war and evil.

Who ever said they were perfect?
Lucifer thoguht God was nothing without him, hence the rebellion cause lucifer thought he was getting screwed on the deal and wanted more. Hebecame prideful, which is the source of all sin.

Well Lucifer was an Arch Angel and he lived in Heaven.
God's Heaven a place of utter perfection where Gods will was fully manifest. God allowed no sin in Heaven only perfection is allowed in Heaven.

How could the strongest most intelligent type of created being mentioned in the bible decide the God who created him was nothing.
How hmmm how did pride exist in heaven in the first place.
How did a 1/3 of the hosts of heaven come to agree with Lucifer
How could any of that happen in heaven where God dwells?
How weird is that?" Heh Heh Heh...
It might not be weird at all if you admit God is ok with evil, war, and pride.
Or if Heaven is not a place of perfection.
Or as I believe it's a myth.

"
I didn't have trouble explaining it.... what is wierd is how you keep on saying "how weird is that" Keep saying that to yourself and it gets kinda freaky.

You said what you believe but that doesn't explain .

lol well he gives you the choice to trust him...

How do we even know this choice exists.

This is the choice to Love God and Jesus or boil in a pit of fire and brimstone tormented by God's earlier fallen creation.
Where did this God come from?

 

[jingwei]

War is a sin. Sin is evil. Evil is hatred. God is not hatred.
God drove these angels out because he cannot tolerate evil. He is a forgiving God because he is giving Satan and his demons thousands, perhaps millions of years to change and repent. But his patience is running out.
If you believe what you just said, then you are not a Christian. War is large scale murder and rebellion. If God tolerated rebellion Satan and his angels would not be on earth right now, because he drove them out of heaven.
I understand your brainwashed mind of war by your country, but War is a never ending cycle of hatred, whether you like it or not.
What you are doing is equal to supporting adultery , fornication, and worshipping another God. You are worshipping Satan.

 

[jingwei]

God is still love, no matter how hard you try twisting his words and scripture.

 

[jhollas]

War is a sin. Sin is evil. Evil is hatred. God is not hatred.
God drove these angels out because he cannot tolerate evil. He is a forgiving God because he is giving Satan and his demons thousands, perhaps millions of years to change and repent. But his patience is running out.
If you believe what you just said, then you are not a Christian. War is large scale murder and rebellion. If God tolerated rebellion Satan and his angels would not be on earth right now, because he drove them out of heaven.
I understand your brainwashed mind of war by your country, but War is a never ending cycle of hatred, whether you like it or not.
What you are doing is equal to supporting adultery , fornication, and worshipping another God. You are worshipping Satan.

I don't think you actually know what you're talking about.
If I was allowed, I think I might actually forbid you taking part further in this discussion, but hey... I need a laugh, and I don't have that power.
What on earth gives you the right to claim that our country brainwashes us? The very nature of the banner in your signature could very well lead me to claim the same thing of you! (And before you start ranting that I know nothing of the EZLN, I'd advise you not to.)
And you're 14. What do you know of war?

 

[jingwei]

My sig is sarcasm, I found it off a random site.
Second, I don't think THAT guy knows what he's talking about. He is saying that God not only tolerates evil and rebellion, he approves it.
America uses propaganda by broadcasting the Army recuitment ads showing cool looking technology and with heavy metal music in the background, like war is some kind of computer game. The first time I watched the war in Iraq by CNN I thought the Iraqis were evil insane villains who deserved it. That's brainwashing right there.

 

[jhollas]

No, that's ignorance.

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

The point might be that because rebellion war and evil began in heaven, none of those things are in and of themselves sin.
In other words God is ok with rebellion war and evil.



Well Lucifer was an Arch Angel and he lived in Heaven.
God's Heaven a place of utter perfection where Gods will was fully manifest. God allowed no sin in Heaven only perfection is allowed in Heaven.

How could the strongest most intelligent type of created being mentioned in the bible decide the God who created him was nothing.
How hmmm how did pride exist in heaven in the first place.
How did a 1/3 of the hosts of heaven come to agree with Lucifer
How could any of that happen in heaven where God dwells?
How weird is that?" Heh Heh Heh...
It might not be weird at all if you admit God is ok with evil, war, and pride.
Or if Heaven is not a place of perfection.
Or as I believe it's a myth.



You said what you believe but that doesn't explain .




How do we even know this choice exists.

This is the choice to Love God and Jesus or boil in a pit of fire and brimstone tormented by God's earlier fallen creation.
Where did this God come from?

"The point might be that because rebellion war and evil began in heaven, none of those things are in and of themselves sin.
In other words God is ok with rebellion war and evil. "

I would call it the start of evil, cause nothing can be perfect or holy without something the opposite.

"Well Lucifer was an Arch Angel and he lived in Heaven.
God's Heaven a place of utter perfection where Gods will was fully manifest. God allowed no sin in Heaven only perfection is allowed in Heaven."

Well actually lucifer was a cherub, not an arch angel.

oh, and satan still accuses the brother day and night in heaven as speak. He has passage to heaven.

"How could the strongest most intelligent type of created being mentioned in the bible decide the God who created him was nothing. "

Ever gotten cocky and just lost logica and common sense? I think every male has at least once in their life.

"How hmmm how did pride exist in heaven in the first place.
How did a 1/3 of the hosts of heaven come to agree with Lucifer
How could any of that happen in heaven where God dwells?"

Cause angels have free will.
God does not dwell in evil. Hence the reason the fell. Satan is obviously a different case and God allwos him passage until the battle in heaven... why? I don't know, I am not God.

"It might not be weird at all if you admit God is ok with evil, war, and pride. "

God is ok with war... I was never agianst that. God is not ok with evil but still uses it like a puppet.

"Or if Heaven is not a place of perfection.
Or as I believe it's a myth."

Or you do not know that there are 2 heavens... one hasn't been created yet. There is still "time" in the present heaven, and there is still some for of frustration for the angles cry out "how much longer till the day of the lord!"



Good questions.

 

[inquisitor_11]

I can't believe you all missed daidhaid's sarcasm. While you all managed to focus on his (insert sarcasm) *obvious apostasy*, you seem to miss his point about Jesus in combat.

In that respect I agree with you Daidhaid. However, I don't see a Jesus that stands idially by as the world suffers. Nor do I see Jesus cross to the other side of the road while a woman gets gang-raped (sorry to use hyperbole, but it's a real situation that Christian's will find themselves in).

 

[daidhaid]

"The point might be that because rebellion war and evil began in heaven, none of those things are in and of themselves sin.
In other words God is ok with rebellion war and evil. "

I would call it the start of evil, cause nothing can be perfect or holy without something the opposite.

I believe God creates and uses evil as he wants.
When you start walking you are walking. Evil works the same way. Start to do evil your doing evil.
I thought God created perfectly.
All was as God wanted it and then GASP! there was the fall.
Lucifer was tossed down from Gods presence with his buddies.
No?

I like the eastern approach where nothing can be without an opposite.
But I never heard any of that stuff in a Christian church.
That would imply that God had to create sin in order to
also have perfection.
So God needs some external thing like sin to define a state of no-sin.
Oh Ok I like it when it gets weird & this sounds like it might be a heresy of some sort.
There is another old doctrine that teaches this world is an image of a perfect world where Gods perfection rules, we are flawed it is not. [/QUOTE]

Well actually lucifer was a cherub, not an arch angel.

oh, and satan still accuses the brother day and night in heaven as speak. He has passage to heaven.

"How could the strongest most intelligent type of created being mentioned in the bible decide the God who created him was nothing. "

Ever gotten cocky and just lost logica and common sense? I think every male has at least once in their life.

Somehow the image of a cocky guy going off half ***** doesn't fit.
These were beings who knew God.
They knew Him for real not in the abstract hopeful way people know God nowadays.

How did they decide they had a shot at freedom.
They had to know what they were up against.
Maybe they knew more than we suspect.
Does God have some weakness they hoped to exploit?
Is God something less than omnipotent?
Could they prevail in the end?
Unless they had a chance to suceed the attempt was futile
and not worth it.
Perhaps heaven is really so oppressive that they were just desperate to escape and willing to try anything.

Cause angels have free will.
God does not dwell in evil. Hence the reason the fell. Satan is obviously a different case and God allwos him passage until the battle in heaven... why? I don't know, I am not God.

Do angels have free will..? If so how much?
When they tried to use free will God squashed them.
How can free will exist in heaven? That is where God's will is fully manifest.
Making a decision here and there isn't free will.
In other words; deciding should I give God the Juicy grape, or the sweet strawberry, is not free will.

God is ok with war... I was never agianst that. God is not ok with evil but still uses it like a puppet.

Or you do not know that there are 2 heavens... one hasn't been created yet. There is still "time" in the present heaven, and there is still some for of frustration for the angles cry out "how much longer till the day of the lord!"

We're close on this point God is ok with war.
I am not.
What about Jesus Lets hear it for a gun totin' bomb droppin' Jesus. Where is Jesus on the killing for God issue.

God does use evil.
He uses it all the time evil is a well worn tool in Gods hand.

Only 2 heavens ? It's a big cosmos plenty of room for heavens