Isn't war evil?

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

I believe God creates and uses evil as he wants.
When you start walking you are walking. Evil works the same way. Start to do evil your doing evil.
I thought God created perfectly.
All was as God wanted it and then GASP! there was the fall.
Lucifer was tossed down from Gods presence with his buddies.
No?

I like the eastern approach where nothing can be without an opposite.
But I never heard any of that stuff in a Christian church.
That would imply that God had to create sin in order to
also have perfection.
So God needs some external thing like sin to define a state of no-sin.
Oh Ok I like it when it gets weird & this sounds like it might be a heresy of some sort.
There is another old doctrine that teaches this world is an image of a perfect world where Gods perfection rules, we are flawed it is not.
Somehow the image of a cocky guy going off half ***** doesn't fit.
These were beings who knew God.
They knew Him for real not in the abstract hopeful way people know God nowadays.

How did they decide they had a shot at freedom.
They had to know what they were up against.
Maybe they knew more than we suspect.
Does God have some weakness they hoped to exploit?
Is God something less than omnipotent?
Could they prevail in the end?
Unless they had a chance to suceed the attempt was futile
and not worth it.
Perhaps heaven is really so oppressive that they were just desperate to escape and willing to try anything.


Do angels have free will..? If so how much?
When they tried to use free will God squashed them.
How can free will exist in heaven? That is where God's will is fully manifest.
Making a decision here and there isn't free will.
In other words; deciding should I give God the Juicy grape, or the sweet strawberry, is not free will.



We're close on this point God is ok with war.
I am not.
What about Jesus Lets hear it for a gun totin' bomb droppin' Jesus. Where is Jesus on the killing for God issue.

God does use evil.
He uses it all the time evil is a well worn tool in Gods hand.

Only 2 heavens ? It's a big cosmos plenty of room for heavens

"I believe God creates and uses evil as he wants.
When you start walking you are walking. Evil works the same way. Start to do evil your doing evil.
I thought God created perfectly.
All was as God wanted it and then GASP! there was the fall.
Lucifer was tossed down from Gods presence with his buddies.
No?"

It was the lucifer and thier choice to deny God. I know that God is the almighty yet I still put things before him on occasion.

"I like the eastern approach where nothing can be without an opposite.
But I never heard any of that stuff in a Christian church.
That would imply that God had to create sin in order to
also have perfection."

Exactly. God knows all that will happen. The greatest thing God has done was display true love and He did that through Jesus dieing on the cross for us... however, if there is no sin, then Jesus dieing for us would never of happened.

"So God needs some external thing like sin to define a state of no-sin.
Oh Ok I like it when it gets weird & this sounds like it might be a heresy of some sort.
There is another old doctrine that teaches this world is an image of a perfect world where Gods perfection rules, we are flawed it is not."

We make ourselves flawed. If God didn't give us the choice to love him and be like him (to be perfect) then his attitude would be pure control and manipulation, not love.

"Somehow the image of a cocky guy going off half ***** doesn't fit.
These were beings who knew God"

I believe that lucifer only knew God for one day... 24 hours, giver or take a few.

"They knew Him for real not in the abstract hopeful way people know God nowadays."

This his how your percieve us knowing God.... however, I know that I know him better than that. Unfortunatly I know satan a little bit better. It's always good to know your enemy, but that is a different discussion.

"How did they decide they had a shot at freedom.
They had to know what they were up against.
Maybe they knew more than we suspect.
Does God have some weakness they hoped to exploit?"

At that time? Lucifer had no clue. He thought he could bring down all the angels with him but only got 1/3. Then, the next day in the garden of eden, lucifer turned Gods greatest creation against Him; Man. Gods love for us is Gods weakness and satan will expliot it to no end, but Gods love will never cease, this is something lucifer does not understand-- he can't.

"Is God something less than omnipotent?
Could they prevail in the end?
Unless they had a chance to suceed the attempt was futile
and not worth it.
Perhaps heaven is really so oppressive that they were just desperate to escape and willing to try anything."

Now your just pulling ideas out of a hat, guess they are still legit... irrellevant, but still legit. BUt could they prevail in the end?
That is an intersting question.... I am actually writing a book about michael the arch angel. It's fiction and personified to a degree (damn near impossible to write a book in which the plot is heaven and being literal).
I am making michael, after many long studies on him, weak in faith in his capabilities that God has given him. Michael faces satan many times, and as time wares on, michael begins to wonder.

Ultimatly, lucifer will attempt to try and have michael on lucifers side of the battle, but michael will resist. I do not beleive the battle for heaven mentioned in revelation is so one sided. Michael is led to believe that there will be no problem.
See I beleive that there is a difference between demons and fallen angels... two completly different beings.
In the battle, at first, the arch angels fight off the entire army of demons. There are heavy loses, but still a great victory... but its not over. The fallen angels will be released from the abyss and they to will fight. Now the arch angels are left fighting thier lost brothers-- creates a bit more of a sensitive touch on the battle.

Ultimatly God will be victorious in the end and michael will be given the title "prince of princes" once satan is cast down out of heaven for 1000 years... then the final battle will occur, and that battle lasts about a second.

"Do angels have free will..? If so how much?
When they tried to use free will God squashed them.
How can free will exist in heaven? That is where God's will is fully manifest.
Making a decision here and there isn't free will.
In other words; deciding should I give God the Juicy grape, or the sweet strawberry, is not free will."

Angels have free will.
However we have more free will... you can assume how difficult it is to expalin... especially when one really has no hard evidence.

When we get to heaven, all we will want to do is Gods will, which is better than anything we could ever come up with.

"What about Jesus Lets hear it for a gun totin' bomb droppin' Jesus. Where is Jesus on the killing for God issue."

I am still waiting to see where Jesus said war was wrong.
He gave many ways to prevent war and to basicly not start fights and how to prevent them. However he has also told us to submit to our authorities. Combine that with murdering being a sin (not killing) and that sacrificing your life for another is the true sign of love.... I believe that Jesus has absolutly no problem with war.

"Only 2 heavens ? It's a big cosmos plenty of room for heavens"

Nah, just one at a time.

 

[mrslinky]

Heavy stuff! I can't deal with this!

 

[Dummy Commando]

I agree with Archangel on this point. There are references in the gospels where Christ spoke to soldiers, in particular the centurian, and not once did he say put down your weapons - what you are doing is wrong. Christ said to obey your commanders. Those placed in authority over you. God has granted the authority to them. Going and fighting a war is not wrong. The motive behind it needs to be question though. Selfish or otherwise.

 

[daidhaid]

I agree with Archangel on this point. There are references in the gospels where Christ spoke to soldiers, in particular the centurian, and not once did he say put down your weapons - what you are doing is wrong. Christ said to obey your commanders. Those placed in authority over you. God has granted the authority to them. Going and fighting a war is not wrong. The motive behind it needs to be question though. Selfish or otherwise.

There isn't much doubt that overall the bible supports war.
The Bible is chocked full of calls to war.

But what about Jesus and war.
Jesus dealt with prostitues, tax collectors, soldiers and slaves. Giving all the same sort of message. Sin no more, dont murder, be a good slave, etc.

Jesus didn't leave a manual of how to take on every ill of society, instead he taught with sermons in parables.
He should have written a book and spelled it out for everyone.

We have the great commission, all that go ye therefore stuff. Not much about warfare in that.
He apparently just wants you to go spread the good news.

There is the sermon on the mount, no goto war stuff in there.

He taught the way to pray to the Father, no warmongering in that either. Mostly stuff about deliverance from evil, forgiving, kingdom of God etc.

So,,, Jesus didn't spell it out and say hey you soldiers don't kill unnecessarily, and especially don't kill in my name, oh and don't kill for religion oil or politics...
He also didn't tell politicians not to let their friends exploit government contracts, but I bet he would disapprove of that too.

What he did do was talk about stuff people wanted and needed to hear.
Multitudes listened to him speak at the mount.
Besides what he said...
He showed you how to live. He never killed anyone or encouraged that behavior.
He pretty much forgave and practiced non-violence.
So if the idea is to live your life as Jesus lived his what gives with the war war war.

Would Jesus slip up on a sentry and put a knife in him?
Would Jesus pursue a retreating enemy run him to the ground and pound him with superior force?

If Jesus came back right now I bet his enemies would be the same today as they were back then.
The organized church would be his only real foe.

One final point about questioning the motives of war.
That is selective objection.
Soldiers and for that matter citizens facing a draft are not permitted to selectively object to war.
The time to decide the issue of war is well before you are in uniform.
Would Jesus enlist to serve in the Army if not why not.
We are on God's side aren't we.

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

I agree with much of your post. daidhaid.

The fact is, soldiers need to know about christ as well. My reason for joining the army was so that I could minister to them, hence the reason I am a chaplain assistant. If I am called up to the war (which I knew I was running the risk of) then so be it, but that is in Gods hands.
Right now I am preparing to be a camp counselor for 10 weeks this summer. Kids and soldiers are a lot different so I gotta get my mentallity back in camp mode instead of military mode.

 

[jhollas]

The fact is, soldiers need to know about christ as well.

Indeed! As the saying goes, there are no atheists on the battlefield!
I think it must be difficult to explain a topic such as the evil of war to soldiers, which is why I'm encouraged by your posts ArchAngel!
A soldier's faith is going to be much more different faced as they are with death, as much a part of their job as paperwork is for an office worker.

 

[Pondering]

I agree with much of your post. daidhaid.

The fact is, soldiers need to know about christ as well. My reason for joining the army was so that I could minister to them, hence the reason I am a chaplain assistant. If I am called up to the war (which I knew I was running the risk of) then so be it, but that is in Gods hands.

One of the challenges that I imagine you would have to face would be one of message content. Archibald Baxter (Father of famous NZ poet) was an objector in the first world war. He was tortured by the NZ and British governments to induce him to fight. One of the comments he made about the chaplins was the difference between the message they spoke in service from back home. There was nothing of "turn the other cheek," "Love your enemies," "do good to those who hate you," "go the extra mile," or any number of other teachings of Jesus. Partly, I imagine, because they would not have been allowed to preach those messages in the service. That, however, is the dificulty. If any outside force is dictating to the content of our message, or dictating our silence in certian areas we are in danger. Archibald Baxter wasn't an objector as part of a religious group by the way, which makes his insites all the more interesting. A difficult challenge ahead of you.
May you recieve much wisdom from the one in whose name you speak.


Under the Mercy
Pondering

 

[Pondering]

I'm also thinking about what someone said earlier in the "what would Jesus Do" vein.
I'm not sure about this. He did some odd stuff like spit in peoples eyes to heal them. Maybe we mean what would Jesus do if he were me? Or better, what IS Jesus doing now. Or perhaps, since He dwells in me, what is it that he would have me do right now? For me, I think if he were me he would turn this off and do some of the other stuff I need to do this evening

 

[TwinCrier]

What would Jesus do? Would Jesus kill Goliath? Would Jesus smite all the first born of Egypt? Would Jesus come back to Earth to on a white horse to judge and make war? Better to judge by what Jesus DID DO than what we think He might do.

 

[jhollas]

Ok, let's look at what Jesus did do.
And to be honest, it doesn't really help this argument. He preached obedience, loyalty, etc. yet nowhere does He state, "Do not go to war because..."

 

[daidhaid]

Someone should just come out and say it.
Don't stop at Jesus didn't say not to.
The white horse stuff isn't quite the same either.
Obey be loyal really come on that is evasive.

It's about what would Jesus do, here now, in America or U.K.
I know from the posts pretty much what you guys approve of war wise.
But it's what would Jesus do.
Specifcaly let's forget horsemen in the sky it is the Jesus of Nazareth that is the Jesus in question.


So is that how it is?
Can you afirm the general statement below?

Jesus, approves of His followers Joining the Army and experiencing combat.
Jesus would say that His followers were doing what He Himself would do if He were here.
Of course that means Jesus would join the Army and kill the enemy. Jesus would; shoot, stab, burn, cut, crush, blow up, and shred His nations enemies.
Yeah all the stuff that some soldiers really have to do to actualy fight.
Your doing so much in His name.

Why dance around, let's be done with it.
wwjd.

Hey maybe after we are clear on Jesus joining Army we can consider the Marines.
So let's wrap this up.

 

[Dummy Commando]

This is really the wrong way of looking at this problem. We live in a fallen world where evil is an inherent part of it. We are called to in the world but not of it. Jesus was perfect - we are not. I know some may see this as a cop out, but that is the basic truth. In the last day all those not of Christ will be condemmed to hell, by God. What difference does it make dropping a little nuke on them? You could look at it from the perspective that if they were to be saved then Christ would have given them salvation. Before the creation of the world we were predestined in Christ. I am not advocating blowing everyone up. I agree that Christ would have us live at peace with everyone to the best of our ability. However we DO live in an evil world with evil all around us. I am a soldier and whilst i have never been in the situation where i have had to kill someone, i believe that my training has prepared me for it and i would execute my job to the best of my ability as though working for God.

 

[jhollas]

I think I'm going to go with daidhaid's view point, and ask myself very simply:
"What would Jesus do?"
I cannot definately answer this, as it's not mentioned in the Bible at all, but my personal feeling is that Jesus would have evaluated every other course of action before doing anything.
If the war met the criteria for a just war... I believe He would have gone, because whatever He was fighting for, He must truly have believed in and truly believed what He was doing was right, in order to justify Him fighting at all.

 

[daidhaid]

Jhollas
You seem like an ok guy, and you are thoughtful and not dogmatic.
So.
Consider that soldiers are not permitted to selectively object to any particular war.
Once you are in you get to fight where another man tells you to, and for any reason or no reason.
Claims for conscientous objection are nearly impossible to get approved.
Soldiers in combat are expected to do stuff that almost anyone, not there in combat with them, would be appalled at having to do...
Just moving on and leaving enemies and civilians suffering

That might be hard for a guy like Jesus.
Really.
Who knows who Jesus wants to save?
Certainly not the soldier who kills...

I personaly am not anti soldier. I'd forgive a grunt for just about anything.
But I am anti-war. Not for any half-baked religous reasons.
I am focusing on Jesus because Christianity is not.

Iknow what it feels like to have a message that is bigger than yourself pulling at your heart.
But it is very hard to feel the tug of conviction when drums are beating and the dogs of war are loose.
All the politics and nationalism all the Saddam was evil stuff none of that is central to the message of Jesus.
"Softly and tenderly Jesus is calling"

"Straight is the way and narrow the gate and few find it"
Seems to me it is the majority that leads us into war. Especially this war.
And again this isn't politics it is a question for the heart the spirit.

 

[jhollas]

Jhollas
You seem like an ok guy, and you are thoughtful and not dogmatic.
So.
Consider that soldiers are not permitted to selectively object to any particular war.
Once you are in you get to fight where another man tells you to, and for any reason or no reason.
Claims for conscientous objection are nearly impossible to get approved.
Soldiers in combat are expected to do stuff that almost anyone, not there in combat with them, would be appalled at having to do...
Just moving on and leaving enemies and civilians suffering.

This is exactly the reason that the military has to keep itself seperate from the rest of society; so that they can be taught their primary aim, to kill, without having any social qualms about it.

That might be hard for a guy like Jesus.
Really.
Who knows who Jesus wants to save?
Certainly not the soldier who kills...

I personaly am not anti soldier. I'd forgive a grunt for just about anything.
But I am anti-war. Not for any half-baked religous reasons.
I am focusing on Jesus because Christianity is not.

Iknow what it feels like to have a message that is bigger than yourself pulling at your heart.
But it is very hard to feel the tug of conviction when drums are beating and the dogs of war are loose.
All the politics and nationalism all the Saddam was evil stuff none of that is central to the message of Jesus.
"Softly and tenderly Jesus is calling"

"Straight is the way and narrow the gate and few find it"
Seems to me it is the majority that leads us into war. Especially this war.
And again this isn't politics it is a question for the heart the spirit.

Time and time again, we have seen that soldiers are used to clear up the politicians' mess, and the current conflict in Iraq demonstrates this very well!
I feel very strongly about what I plan to do with my life, and even at this stage, do not feel any regret about dying for my country. I suppose I'm still very traditional, and have a strong sense of national loyalty. But this is for conflicts where my country is in danger, or there is a legitimate reason for me fighting (i.e. the nation's interests). And in this, I feel that Jesus would be...well, not happy for me to fight, but He would understand that I needed to.
The recent conflict has nothing of this, yet I am still filled with the same sense of pride in what our boys have managed to achieve, flying in the face possibly of their better judgement. They did everything that was required of them, yet I feel that they still managed to retain their "goodness" (for want of a better word!).

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

The military's aim is not to kill but to defend and save lives... if that involves killing, then so be it.

 

[daidhaid]

It's not about how you personaly feel, or what you would do.
It's not a question that can be answered with your motives and justifications or personal feelings.

It's more like what would Jesus do specificaly.
His word is writ upon your hearts. This should be easy.
Would Jesus kill His nations enemies on command.

>Can you afirm the general statement below?

>Jesus, approves of His followers Joining the Army and experiencing combat.
>Jesus would say that His followers were doing what He Himself would do if He were here.
>Of course that means Jesus would join the Army and kill His nations enemies.
>Jesus could; shoot, stab, burn, cut, crush, blow up, and shred His nations enemies.
>Yeah all the stuff that some soldiers really have to do to actualy fight.
>Not some act of pure defense, our soldiers are best on attack.
>We're talking your basic preemptive straightforward low intensity warfare.
>Not saving lives. Just their buddies.
>This isn't the Coast Guard and Jesus question.
>It's more like Jesus in combat arms question.
>Jesus taking orders from the government to kill.
>Basicaly killing and maiming people and scaring the hell out of civilians.

Neo-colonialism I mean neo-conservativism in action.

 

[jhollas]

The military's aim is not to kill but to defend and save lives... if that involves killing, then so be it.

Actually, the military's primary aim is to defend the nation, and the nation's interests.

 

[jhollas]

It's not about how you personaly feel, or what you would do.
It's not a question that can be answered with your motives and justifications or personal feelings.

It's more like what would Jesus do specificaly.
His word is writ upon your hearts. This should be easy.
Would Jesus kill His nations enemies on command.

Would Jesus kill His nation's enemies on command? I suppose that this is what it all comes down to...
Unfortunately, I cannot answer without asking another question. Is the war just?
Following on from that, you have to ask, are all wars evil or only un-just ones?

 

[daidhaid]

Would Jesus kill His nation's enemies on command? I suppose that this is what it all comes down to...
Unfortunately, I cannot answer without asking another question. Is the war just?
Following on from that, you have to ask, are all wars evil or only un-just ones?

That Is Exactly the Question.
But asking, is the war just,,, is a luxury soldiers don't have.
Jesus wouldn't be able to pick and choose just wars.
This isn't some role play game where you get to choose your alignment and choose the campaign.
It's join the army and follow the orders.
If the President wants to fight Nicaraguan farmers you do it.
It's the History of war mostly always over money power religion, sometimes National Defense.

As for are just wars evil?
Well I never saw a just war so I'm on a limb here.
Yes, all war is evil, but a war may become neccessary.
Events can overtake you. War may be thrust upon you.
War is still evil but survival is an imperative.
IMHO
I suspect in the light of fact there will be few just wars.
Many of those will be hopeless causes like most of the Indian wars.
Still we should be looking for peace.
Since war leads to war, every war slowed down and prevented might mean more than just one war stopped .
Leaders need to think about more than re-election and money.

It's what Jesus wants that is supposed to be a Christians priority.
If the answer is hard to find it may be that it is an answer that dissagrees with your personal beliefs.
What would Paul say?
Be conformed to Jesus not the world. maybe...