Isn't war evil?

[jhollas]

I don't personally believe that all war is evil. World War II, for example.
This is really making me think about my faith, and I don't think I could ever answer the question fully. However, as you said before, I must answer as though Jesus' words were written on my heart. To this end, and I'm sure many other Christians would disagree, if war were necessary, Jesus would go.

 

[daidhaid]

I don't personally believe that all war is evil. World War II, for example.
This is really making me think about my faith, and I don't think I could ever answer the question fully. However, as you said before, I must answer as though Jesus' words were written on my heart. To this end, and I'm sure many other Christians would disagree, if war were necessary, Jesus would go.

I can dig that you have grappled with the question.
I appreciate that you thought for youself and didn't just throw out rehashes of preacherspeak.
He is your God so maybe you can see it better than me.

 

[inquisitor_11]

The military's aim is not to kill but to defend and save lives... if that involves killing, then so be it.

Don't be stupid. The military's role (in western society) is to do acts of violence that no one else is "allowed" to do i.e. kill people in very bloody, messy ways. "Defence" and "saving lives" is only one aspect of what the military is used for. Primarily the military is their to "protect the interests" of a nation state. This means assination, disposessing the rightful owners of their land, oppressing other peoples, indiscriminate weapons, economic hardship, denying people access to food, water and healthcare. You are the tool for imposing the political will of a governemnt and a people that are not altruistically concerned for others.

As a soldier you do not get to choose to only do PK ops and nice humanitarian stuff. Whilst you may do these, it will primarily be to the benefit of your country. You will also be involved in "interventions" that are destroying hope and lives- as the US military has done in a number of countries (Nicuragu and Panama to name a few).

You need to know how to deal with this as a christian.

Dummy Commando- choco or reg?

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

Don't be stupid. The military's role (in western society) is to do acts of violence that no one else is "allowed" to do i.e. kill people in very bloody, messy ways. "Defence" and "saving lives" is only one aspect of what the military is used for. Primarily the military is their to "protect the interests" of a nation state. This means assination, disposessing the rightful owners of their land, oppressing other peoples, indiscriminate weapons, economic hardship, denying people access to food, water and healthcare. You are the tool for imposing the political will of a governemnt and a people that are not altruistically concerned for others.

As a soldier you do not get to choose to only do PK ops and nice humanitarian stuff. Whilst you may do these, it will primarily be to the benefit of your country. You will also be involved in "interventions" that are destroying hope and lives- as the US military has done in a number of countries (Nicuragu and Panama to name a few).

You need to know how to deal with this as a christian.

Dummy Commando- choco or reg?

Oh?

So how is putting our lives on the line for IRAQI'S helping to protect teh ebst intrest of our country?

Oh, and don't call me stupid. I am a soldier and I know what my role is. Thanks.

"You will also be involved in "interventions" that are destroying hope and lives- as the US military has done in a number of countries (Nicuragu and Panama to name a few)."

If it involves submiting to authority and creating a better cause in the long run, then whats the problem?

Please, I know what I must deal with as a christian. I really do not like it when people talk down to me unless I am desriving and they know me. Niether one is the case.

 

[daidhaid]

Oh?

So how is putting our lives on the line for IRAQI'S helping to protect teh ebst intrest of our country?

.snip,
If it involves submiting to authority and creating a better cause in the long run, then whats the problem?

Please, I know what I must deal with as a christian. I really do not like it when people talk down to me unless I am desriving and they know me. Niether one is the case.

Yes indeed. Exactly how is the situation in Iraq helping to protect the best interests of our country.
It would ameliorate the nastiness of war if somehow it was protecting America.

The idea that submitting to authority creates a better cause in the long run, is a bit odd.
The ends justify the means is hardly the argument I would expect from a serious Christian.
Certainly Jesus would put it differently.

No one likes to be talked down to, it is a bad sensation.
The solution might be to raise your position to higher ground.

Eh,, aside from criticizing your intelligence Inquisitors post has strong merit.

 

[jhollas]

Yes indeed. Exactly how is the situation in Iraq helping to protect the best interests of our country.
It would ameliorate the nastiness of war if somehow it was protecting America.

This is one of the main reason I had issues with Britain going to war. It's all very well to say, "We were removing a tyrannical regime, and removing the threat of WMD," but when you cannot even find those weapons...
Still, I didn't oppose the war.

 

[inquisitor_11]

The WMD question is simply a side line- the threat was certainly real in the minds of the coalition- you don't have people suited up for MOPP3 in the desert if there's no good reason for it.

The real issue has always been geopolitics and oil, plus some family pride. If they were really concerned about tyrannical rulers there are plenty of other fish in the sea that don't have nearly as sharp teeth.

Sorry about "insulting your intelligence". However I wouldn't have said it if I didn't need to be said. The army is not going to give you a balanced and honest view of their history.

You might find "Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II"
by William Blum interesting.

Just to put what I've said in perspective i'm a choco Combat Engineer in the Australian army... how much longer for? I don't know. I'm still working through the issues.

 

[daidhaid]

I don't believe the wmd threat was real in the minds at the top.
Those chemical warfare suits just looked to good in the press.
That was enuf reason for the fearless leaders to put out the order.
They wanted the threat of wmd to look big.

The wmd are looking more and more like a dead horse.
I was a just little surprised at first when nothing after nothing turned up.
All the propoganda made it it seem possible.
Now..?

I'm angry that our use of inteligence is so poor and our leaders are such lying tools of war.
That Bush started the war on lies and pretense ought to be treason.

If Bush really wants to democratize the Arab world I doubt that this is the way to proceed.
It is as Inquisitor said Geopolitics, oil and some sort of family issues.
O.I.L. = Operation Iraqi Liberation.

And I'd like to add to His comment ...
>"I wouldn't have said it if I didn't need to be said. The army is not going to give you a balanced and honest view of their history."

Neither will the government or the institutions like religions or big business.
Supporting the government and benefiting from the government go hand in hand.
Some of those hands are bigger than the people.












.

 

[iain]

bush sucks thats it clear and simple and the sooner the american people relise this and throws him out the better for christens and the world

 

[jhollas]

But is the alternative any better? 2 years down the line, he may decide to send troops to a conflict that is not widley supported. We just don't know... Remember, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[GenemZ]

This is one of the main reason I had issues with Britain going to war. It's all very well to say, "We were removing a tyrannical regime, and removing the threat of WMD," but when you cannot even find those weapons...
Still, I didn't oppose the war.

Why do you think the UN was stalling for more inspections?


So... Sadam would have more time to get those weapons out. As we are now finding out, a good number of UN delegates were in Sadam's pocket. A pocket with "oil for food money" going directly into their own pockets. Israeli intellegence (one of the best in the entire world) says that the weapons were relocated in Syria. Only Syria and Iraq have a stong Bath party. The weapons were moving into Syria while the UN was stalling for more time. Do you want us to invade Syria to prove this?

As for war? Christian, or not? Jesus said...

"You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come."
Matthew 24:6 niv

Jesus did not condemn war. He spoke of it as being an accepted way of life, because of the nature of man. A Christian who does not fight in war to defend against evil, is sinning. Moses warned one tribe that was refusing to be involved with a pre-emptive strike against an evil people, that if they do not do it, it is seen as sin!

"Then Moses said to them, "If you will do this-if you will arm yourselves before the LORD for battle, and if all of you will go armed over the Jordan before the LORD until he has driven his enemies out before him- then when the land is subdued before the LORD , you may return and be free from your obligation to the LORD and to Israel. And this land will be your possession before the LORD . "But if you fail to do this, you will be sinning against the LORD ; and you may be sure that your sin will find you out." Numbers 32:20-23 niv

Imagine that? The Lord sees not fighting and killing an evil enemy as sinning against the Lord? And, in this case, it would have been a pre-emptive strike.

And, the famous passage used against war... "Thou shall not kill." That speaks in the Hebrew about homocide. Not warfare! To kill the enemy in war is not murder if you are defending freedom. It does not say not to kill. It says not to murder. Jesus when he comes back, the first thing he will do will be to slaughter the enemies of God (men) . Millions of men!

Revelation 14:19-20 niv

"The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath. They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia (180 miles!). "

Warfare is a part of life for the Christian. For as long as evil co-exists with the good, war is the only solution when evil become aggressive. Diplomacy only works when you are able and ready to slaughter an enemy, by the way. Diplomacy without strength is a fanatasy of cowards...

Paul accepted warfare as a normal issue in this life.... He never condemned it.

1 Corinthians 14:8 niv

" Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? "

Men like Chamberlain could not see the eminent danger of the great evil of Hitler. If Hiltler were stopped when he first started to rise, men today would be saying, "why did they attack him? He was not a real threat!" Men with courage and insight saw his evil, though. Yet, while it lasted, Chamberlain was cheered as a national hero.. as to bring peace in his time.

Nothing is new. Men are the same today, as they were back then...

" 'Because they lead my people astray, saying, "Peace," when there is no peace, and because, when a flimsy wall is built, they cover it with whitewash." Ezekiel 13:10 niv

Jesus sees nothing wrong with killing the enemy. Jesus sees nothing wrong with pre-emptive strikes when certain men have the courage to face what is down the road. If the likes of Chamberlain were filled with the Spirit, and not human good, Hitler would have been a minor player in history. A relatively unknown.

Will you ask? "They who take up the sword, will die by the sword?"

That spoke of crimminal activity, not war. Jesus did not condemn Peter for having a sword. He only condemned the misuse of the sword. For Jesus did not tell Peter to get rid of that sword. Matter of fact, he told him to keep it!

Matthew 26:52 niv

"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."

Jesus did not tell Peter to throw his sword away, but to put it back in its scabbard. To keep it for justified protection.

Just think... If we did not have the pacifist dreamers like Chamberlain in control, Sadam would be a better known name than Hitler's, today.

By the way. In case you are wondering... I hate war. Yet, I hate more what would be, if we refused to take the responsibility to be in war. It is not a necessary evil. But, a necessity against evil! Some blur reality and cannot discern what is right before them. The reason Jesus died on the cross was because man is fallen and will desire war if greed and envy are not kept in check.

If the conservative thinkers had their way back in the 30's, we would be saying, "Hitler? Who's he? "

Sadam was a much greater threat when we stopped him, than when they could have stopped Hilter after his first invasion in Europe. They decided to leave Hitler be. That he was no real threat... Yet, some did see, and were denied.

We have learned our lesson. Most of us anyway. For, as always, there will always be those who flunk the test. The one they failed to study for.

Until Jesus returns and takes rulership of this planet... we are to prepare for war, and be ready to kill the enemy.

"He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore." Isaiah 2:4 niv

Until then, Satan rules this world. His objective is to destroy all Christian values and principles. Violence is all he can offer in the face of what he can not refute. So, we have wars. He is always training his kind for war, pitting one evil against another, as to create the greater evil and power from the two. He wants to beat Jesus to world rulership. He wants a one world government.

By the way...

He really likes the UN.

Grace and truth, GeneZ

 

[daidhaid]

Since we have now determined Jesus is really ok with war, there are some serious considerations.
Stuff to ponder...

1.
Someone needs to get busy putting some spin on the Sermon on the Mount.
We could be proactive and maybe dress Jesus up in a uniform and say this is GI Jesus doing psy ops for the army. Kids will apperciate that.

2.
The big problem is should how should Jesus be assigned..?
There's no doubt that Jesus will enhance all war related activities. But it would be a waste of superpowers to use him behind the scenes or for support like logistics or medical.
We want to win big and win fast, right?
Jesus should go to close combat.
There His skills to suddenly appear, walk on water, pass through walls, and float in the sky, could be very useful.
He would be an excellent scout no lrp would faze him.
He could infiltrate enemy defenses and slice up sentries.
Why he could go in with one block of c-4 bless it on the scene and turn it into 200 lbs of HE.
A one man demo team why he could have taken Normandy all by himself.
The best FO ever, one shot no adjusting fire, kablam, the enemy is dead.
He could be an A team all by himself. I be He could speak every language on the planet best field interrogator ever.
Maybe assign him as a sniper he would never miss.
Jesus would be the best gunship pilot but, we might have to re-name the hellfire missile to avoid any blasphemy.

We really could have an Army of One with the handy multi purpose GI Jesus.

In His spare time He could take out the UN.
Now that would teach Satan a thing or two.

 

[GenemZ]

Since we have now determined Jesus is really ok with war, there are some serious considerations.
Stuff to ponder...

1.
Someone needs to get busy putting some spin on the Sermon on the Mount.
We could be proactive and maybe dress Jesus up in a uniform and say this is GI Jesus doing psy ops for the army. Kids will apperciate that.

Your ignorance is showing...

When Jesus gave the Sermon on the Mount he was speaking not to the Church. The Church age had not yet begun. He was speaking to Jews, as a Jew, according to what the Jews understood. They knew an earthly kingdom was to come. They knew the Messiah was to rule. Jesus was offering them his Messiahship in the Sermon. If you think that applies to today... well... the meek get stomped on. They have not inherited the earth. The entire Sermon spoke of life during the Millenial reign of Christ, not the Church age.

2.
The big problem is should how should Jesus be assigned..?
There's no doubt that Jesus will enhance all war related activities. But it would be a waste of superpowers to use him behind the scenes or for support like logistics or medical.

You are just being facetious from here on in. No sense in addressing your remarks any further.

Grace and peace, Gene

I offered them gold, but they had too much pocket lint to hold it...

 

[jhollas]

Since we have now determined Jesus is really ok with war, there are some serious considerations.
Stuff to ponder...

1.
Someone needs to get busy putting some spin on the Sermon on the Mount.
We could be proactive and maybe dress Jesus up in a uniform and say this is GI Jesus doing psy ops for the army. Kids will apperciate that.

2.
The big problem is should how should Jesus be assigned..?
There's no doubt that Jesus will enhance all war related activities. But it would be a waste of superpowers to use him behind the scenes or for support like logistics or medical.
We want to win big and win fast, right?
Jesus should go to close combat.
There His skills to suddenly appear, walk on water, pass through walls, and float in the sky, could be very useful.
He would be an excellent scout no lrp would faze him.
He could infiltrate enemy defenses and slice up sentries.
Why he could go in with one block of c-4 bless it on the scene and turn it into 200 lbs of HE.
A one man demo team why he could have taken Normandy all by himself.
The best FO ever, one shot no adjusting fire, kablam, the enemy is dead.
He could be an A team all by himself. I be He could speak every language on the planet best field interrogator ever.
Maybe assign him as a sniper he would never miss.
Jesus would be the best gunship pilot but, we might have to re-name the hellfire missile to avoid any blasphemy.

We really could have an Army of One with the handy multi purpose GI Jesus.

In His spare time He could take out the UN.
Now that would teach Satan a thing or two.

Need to be a bit careful daid; not everybody will take this as lightly as you intended it to be.

 

[daidhaid]

Need to be a bit careful daid; not everybody will take this as lightly as you intended it to be.

Yeah I know
a few pints of Guiness and I can hardly help myself.
I think the grunts will get it.

 

[daidhaid]

I started to take the gold but then I saw it was dripping with blood so I kept my pocket lint .

 

[GenemZ]

Yeah I know
a few pints of Guiness and I can hardly help myself.
I think the grunts we get it.

You use "Guiness" as your excuse, sir.

I already realize that you can not help yourself.

Jesus drank wine on a regular basis, and never had your problem.

Not quite right...

The grunts will identify with what you said.

But, the grunts will not get it. You don't get it.

And.... its spelled, "Guinness."

It appears you can't even hold a few pints...

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

I started to take the gold but then I saw it was dripping with blood so I kept my pocket lint .

You act as if you will live forever.

Yet, at the very same time, as if only this life means everything to you.

Mov'in on... GZ

 

[daidhaid]

You use "Guiness" as your excuse, sir.

I already realize that you can not help yourself.

Jesus drank wine on a regular basis, and never had your problem.

Not quite right...

The grunts will identify with what you said.

But, the grunts will not get it. You don't get it.

And.... its spelled, "Guinness."

It appears you can't even hold a few pints...

Grace and peace, GeneZ

I especially like the auto-spell check feature, gotta watch those double n's.
Had I actually been intoxicated I would have just said stout.

>The grunts will identify with what you said.
>But, the grunts will not get it. You don't get it.

Not get it? Don't get it? Hmmm.
Is this fundiespeak for I'm gonna goto hell?
Is your invisible buddy in the sky talking about me..?

About that living forever and this life means everything stuff...
whooosh right over the top.
It must have been to clever for me to grasp.
I need to study more, perhaps I should audit a class or two on humorless ideologies, or bumpersticker theology.

live long and prosper with grace and peace... Daidhaid

 

[GenemZ]

I especially like the auto-spell check feature, gotta watch those double n's.
Had I actually been intoxicated I would have just said stout.

>The grunts will identify with what you said.
>But, the grunts will not get it. You don't get it.

Not get it? Don't get it? Hmmm.
Is this fundiespeak for I'm gonna goto hell?
Is your invisible buddy in the sky talking about me..?

About that living forever and this life means everything stuff...
whooosh right over the top.
It must have been to clever for me to grasp.
I need to study more, perhaps I should audit a class or two on humorless ideologies, or bumpersticker theology.

live long and prosper with grace and peace... Daidhaid

Thank you for making who you really are conspicuous...

Moving along to the next cage.... GeneZ