Isn't war evil?

[Larry]

update

 

[daidhaid]

You make it sound like God has never waged war..

Sorry I am not in control of how you understand what I say. So with this qualification let me state for the record.
If I believed in your God I would never imply that it didn't wage war.
I would go so far as to say your God thrives on and even relishes war.
It is your God's passion for war and turmoil that has made Him such a useful political tool.
At this moment 3 major religions use your God to justify wars just amongst themselves.
Add to those conflicts all the other wars with different religions and social groups.
It would be silly for me to think your God didn't wage war,
that is if I believed in Him.
As it is I think it is the belief in God, not His alleged existance that is the real connection to war.

The country you are living in, under God, was created by war. So ultimatly you are still standing for war simply due to the fact you living in the spoils of the war, and the cause.

If people do not like war, then I tell them to buy a piece of land in canada and make residence there, cause if they are against war, then they have no right be standing on american ground. .

The patriotic love it or leave it syndrome rears its pointy little head along with other simplistic values.
I won't bother to form a reply in my own words when others have expounded with better humor.

G. K. Chesterton
My country, right or wrong" is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying "My mother, drunk or sober....

Norman Thomas
If you want a symbolic gesture, don't burn the flag; wash it....

Rabbi Sherwin Wine:
There are two visions of America. One precedes our founding fathers and finds its roots in the harshness of our puritan past. It is very suspicious of freedom, uncomfortable with diversity, hostile to science, unfriendly to reason, contemptuous of personal autonomy. It sees America as a religious nation. It views patriotism as allegiance to God. It secretly adores coercion and conformity. Despite our constitution, despite the legacy of the Enlightenment, it appeals to millions of Americans and threatens our freedom.

The other vision finds its roots in the spirit of our founding revolution and in the leaders of this nation who embraced the age of reason. It loves freedom, encourages diversity, embraces science and affirms the dignity and rights of every individual. It sees America as a moral nation, neither completely religious nor completely secular. It defines patriotism as love of country and of the people who make it strong. It defends all citizens against unjust coercion and irrational conformity.

This second vision is our vision. It is the vision of a free society. We must be bold enough to proclaim it and strong enough to defend it against all its enemies.

Helen Keller
I do not want the peace that passeth understanding. I want the understanding which bringeth peace....

To bring you back and paraphrase my previous post
War is evil but may sometimes be neccessary.
That's bad but alternatives may be worse. Strive for peace.
War is evil and can also be un-neccessary That is bad and should be resisted. Wage Peace.
So you get to make a choice... or not...
if you adhere to "My country right or wrong" and ignore the rest of the admonition you will just follow the drums of war. Your trust in all things American may see you through,
or not.
Since our forefathers thoughtfully provided us with a few remarkable liberties we can try to make up our own minds.
Gasp! We can even venture to dissent that is until Patriot Act Ver 2.8 .
And as nice as Canada is we don't have to run off to that country to be free.
Don't you see the dichotomy in saying; "we are a free Nation" and then suggesting that folks who use their freedom to object to war or anything need to get out and go to another place. A place where whatever they objected to before is now the national consensus?

And if you managed to force the world all into groups of like minded folks there would be no safety brake of dissent. Certainly not religion.
What would prevent or slow down all those like minded people if they wanted to pursue evil. Or oil?
One of the main problems with this war is that dissent was so unpopular people were afraid to stand against it.
That in itself is a sad reflection on the health of our freedom.

Thats just my opinion.

Unless they have a way that the war could have been prevented and still have all the liberty that we have.

Sigh...
I know how eager you must be to earn your
combat chaplains assistant badge I don't want another argument about how valuable your MOS is in Combat.
That is your choice. We should agreeto dissagree I think it is nearly worthless and you think it is excellent.

but in your rush to valor pause to consider; few things are really equal... In this case all wars are not created equal.

I'll let 2 Military Leaders speak on that.

Omar N. Bradley
Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing than we know about living. We have grasped the mystery of the atom and rejected the Sermon on the Mount....

Hermann Goering:
Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

 

[LordsRanger]

Sigh...
I know how eager you must be to earn your
combat chaplains assistant badge I don't want another argument about how valuable your MOS is in Combat.
That is your choice. We should agreeto dissagree I think it is nearly worthless and you think it is excellent.

That is a ditch in the dirt you do not bloody cross. You are way out of line, heathen. Your comment and logic is indeed asinine and inane.

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

That is a ditch in the dirt you do not bloody cross. You are way out of line, heathen. Your comment and logic is indeed asinine and inane.

Thanks Ranger... I appreciate you steppin in for me... though the content is severe, my feelings on his attitude towards my pride with the military and my MOS is greatly disturbing.

You can be my battle buddy anyday (not just because your a ranger either )

 

[LordsRanger]

I have to say to protect the dignity and the honor of the 75th Infantry Regiment (Abn.) of the Army that I am not a Ranger. I use the term differently than that of an Army Ranger. I apologize for any confusion.

As of yet, I personally have no official affiliation with the armed services.

However, I'll be your wingman any time.

 

[daidhaid]

My my such drama.
Consider this; you an untested, raw recruit, in a reserve support unit, in Ohio, with a chaplains assistant MOS, suggested that I should buy land in Canada because I think war is evil. Isn't that a tad provactive all by itself..?
Also your battle buddy has labeled me an il-logical heathen.
I think all that merits a direct response.
My comments, though pointed, were polite enough and I offered to agree to disagree.
I understand how sensitive you are on the subject of your service.
I would be to if I were you, but I'm not you. I'm not all that appreciative of the chaplains corps or it's secretaries.
You knew that already when you suggested taking the trip to Canada.
Now if posts start appearing about the pointless useless nature of infantry medics in combat I'll try to understand your angst.

So stiff upper lip soldier it can get a lot worse than an internet snub.

However if you want to make it really personal we should consider doing it where punches dont have to be pulled.
Time considerations may have to factor in but maybe an alt.war newsgroup.


Well anyway. Now you have a battle buddy I expect to hear good things about your exploits.

 

[daidhaid]

I have to say to protect the dignity and the honor of the 75th Infantry Regiment (Abn.) of the Army that I am not a Ranger. I use the term differently than that of an Army Ranger. I apologize for any confusion.

As of yet, I personally have no official affiliation with the armed services.

However, I'll be your wingman any time.

As if I didn't know that already.
Be assured you are his perfect battle buddy.

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

My my such drama. Consider this; you an untested, raw recruit, in a reserve support unit, in Ohio, with a chaplains assistant MOS, suggested that I should buy land in Canada because I think war is evil. Isn't that a tad provactive all by itself..?Also your battle buddy has labeled me an il-logical heathen. I think all that merits a direct response.My comments, though pointed, were polite enough and I offered to agree to disagree. I understand how sensitive you are on the subject of your service.I would be to if I were you, but I'm not you. I'm not all that appreciative of the chaplains corps or it's secretaries.You knew that already when you suggested taking the trip to Canada.Now if posts start appearing about the pointless useless nature of infantry medics in combat I'll try to understand your angst. So stiff upper lip soldier it can get a lot worse than an internet snub. However if you want to make it really personal we should consider doing it where punches dont have to be pulled. Time considerations may have to factor in but maybe an alt.war newsgroup. Well anyway. Now you have a battle buddy I expect to hear good things about your exploits.

"My my such drama. Consider this; you an untested, raw recruit, in a reserve support unit, in Ohio, with a chaplains assistant MOS, suggested that I should buy land in Canada because I think war is evil."

What does my place in the military have to do with my knowledge of war, religion and realistate?

"Also your battle buddy has labeled me an il-logical heathen."

Well I can't exactly speak for him, but a heathen, speaking biblicaly, would be someone who is doomed for hell for the most part... if you don't beleive in God, well... there ya go, would you rather him lie? As far as being illogical... Well I couldn't agree with him more, but I guess that is his opinion and my own.

"My comments, though pointed, were polite enough and I offered to agree to disagree"

I commend you, would you like a medal? I find it interesting I state some more facts then you stir up the mess all over again, then all of the sudden you just end it, when in reallity it was you that started just recently. At least you finish what you start.

"I understand how sensitive you are on the subject of your service.I would be to if I were you, but I'm not you."
I am a simple soldier, just like you. The only thing seperating us is rank. I guess we could go to our commanders, however high up you would want to, then ask them if I am being radical, or your being too apathetic, or both.

"So stiff upper lip soldier it can get a lot worse than an internet snub."

I am more than ready for the occassion. Our drill srgts pounded hand to hand combat into us. Cocky, yes, but I beleive the correct would be... oh how did you put it.... Youthful Confidence? Despite my chaplain attributes, I was trained right along side the infantry and rangers at benning... Our drill srgts would literally have us running right along them and comparing us to them every time, and if we did not satisfy him... well... you can imagine.

"However if you want to make it really personal we should consider doing it where punches dont have to be pulled."

darn...

"Now you have a battle buddy I expect to hear good things about your exploits."

Heh, your my battle buddy to. Sucks, but it's a fact.

Have a good night

 

[LordsRanger]

Daidhaid, don't get too far ahead of yourself. You keep biting your own tongue. Chew slowly.

As for your asininity, it would be nice if your logic were linear and not incongruous. Try following a linear logic process. You would sound a lot less imbecilic.

 

[daidhaid]

Daidhaid, don't get too far ahead of yourself. You keep biting your own tongue. Chew slowly.

As for your asininity, it would be nice if your logic were linear and not incongruous. Try following a linear logic process. You would sound a lot less imbecilic.

should I use crayons to help you out Ranger?

 

[daidhaid]

I find it hard to believe any Christian can endorse war.

Please help me out here.

Here is the original post for those of you who may have forgotten...

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

should I use crayons to help you out Ranger?

I am not understanding the connection between crayons and this thread, nor do I understand the fascination of trying to explain things with them.

 

[jhollas]

I think DaidHaid is perhaps trying to hint at Ranger's level of intelligence...

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

I think DaidHaid is perhaps trying to hint at Ranger's level of intelligence...

If thats the case, which I beleive it is, then it's a controdiction on daids behalf and has shown to have no more than equal intelligence.

 

[daidhaid]

considering the seriousness of the original post, this thread sure has taken an odd twist.

to stay on topic yup war is evil.

 

[LordsRanger]

Well, war is perpetrated on behalf of evil and sin. It all amounts to, IMHO, who is righteous in the cause or effect, whatever it may be. God surely does not want war. So, technically, all war must be evil. But is it something deeper, Daidhaid? Is it who war is caused by? Is it who defends himself or the welfare of others the evil one?

 

[daidhaid]

Well, war is perpetrated on behalf of evil and sin. It all amounts to, IMHO, who is righteous in the cause or effect, whatever it may be. God surely does not want war. So, technically, all war must be evil. But is it something deeper, Daidhaid? Is it who war is caused by? Is it who defends himself or the welfare of others the evil one?

A polite somewhat stunned silence ensues....
Then a low chuckle forms but is supressed...
So much to think about.

 

[jhollas]

A polite somewhat stunned silence ensues....
Then a low chuckle forms but is supressed...
So much to think about.

Care to explain daidhaid?

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

considering the seriousness of the original post, this thread sure has taken an odd twist.

to stay on topic yup war is evil.

In that case, then God has committed sin.... and controdicts himself, unless the issue of war being sin is not so cut and dry.

 

[daidhaid]

Well, war is perpetrated on behalf of evil and sin.

Well that sure puts God and George Bush in an awkward spot, just to name two.
And I see that xtxArch has a somewhat similar position, when he posted
>"In that case, then God has committed sin.... and controdicts himself, unless the issue of war being sin is not so cut and dry." >xtxArch.

I think most of us are aware, from the Bible, that God has historicaly waged a lot of war.
Not to mention being invoked as a supporter or leader of practicaly every war his followers were ever involved in.

In my view war being evil and God waging war are not contradictions or even inconsistencies.
A strong case has been made before that God uses evil.
That is not such a difficult concept.

But if Lords contention that "war is perpetrated on behalf of evil and sin." is to be taken seriously, while also observing that God wages war,,,
then LordsRanger might be in some danger of of blasphemy.
To say God doesn't wage war is a mistake but to say God can sin is blasphemy.

Personaly speaking...
I have never taken a position on war being sin, for the simple reason that, since I have not been a practicing xtian for many years the subject of sin just isn't very compelling to me.
Right and wrong, good and evil, those are important in a yin yang sense, but sin is not a handle that works for me.
I understand the concept.

It all amounts to, IMHO, who is righteous in the cause or effect, whatever it may be.

this is implying some sort of situational ethics at work.
I said as much a few posts back.

God surely does not want war.

Heh heh heh.
Ok God may not want every war but to say "God surely does not want war" is not supported very well by facts or the actions of Christians.
If God did not want war I would expect Christians to change their ways.

So, technically, all war must be evil. But is it something deeper, Daidhaid? Is it who war is caused by? Is it who defends himself or the welfare of others the evil one?

Hmm...as I said war is evil.
Situational ethics do not disturb me over-much.
At the risk of confusing Lord yet again,,, I'll stand by my earlier posts to that effect.
and try once again...
A war of defense uses the evil of war for a neccessary end.
Peace should still be the goal.
An unneccessary war uses evil for evil.
That must be fought against. Wage peace instead.
I seems like a simple observation to me.