Isn't God evil, if He allowed Adam's fall to harm us?

[Neogaia777]

If you think I regard God as evil, you misunderstood the OP, and everything else I've written.

You suggested it, so...

So, own up to it... Or not, I really don't care at this point...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

If you think I regard God as evil, you misunderstood the OP, and everything else I've written.

Explain to us how he is not evil then...?

 

[JAL]

I don't think god is maximally kind from a fallen human standpoint. From a holy standpoint I'm sure God is. The fact is like I said, we can't know. There is some room for our own ideas, as long as we understand the basic concept of being sinners in need of repentance and Christ's sacrifice for our sins on the cross.

A theodicy laden with an unresolved contradiction shouldn't be touted as copacetic. That's my beef. I just want the church to admit the fact that their position on Adam doesn't seem to make sense, seems to be contradictory and, as such, is quite possibly false. But rather than confess that shortcoming, they continue to perpetuate a doctrine that, when fully extrapolated, seems to construe God as an evil monster. In God's eyes, this is quite possibly a kind of slander that has helped to suppress revival historically.

The fact is like I said, we can't know.

We're not infallible. We don't infallibly know anything. But that's no excuse for the church touting their position as copacetic for 2,000 years. And then when someone like me comes along with a solution that actually works, people practically want to crucify me for it.

Look, when faced with a choice between competing doctrines, the church hasn't typically said, 'We can't know, so we don't choose any of them." Instead it typically makes a selection. All i'm asking them to do is select the one not full of contradictions!

I don't think god is maximally kind from a fallen human standpoint. From a holy standpoint I'm sure God is.

You're insinuating that's God's definition of kindness need not match the human definition of kindness. This is the semantic contradiction refuted in post 12.

 

[JAL]

Explain to us how he is not evil then...?

You didn't read my solution to the Adam-problem in the opening post?

 

[~Zao~]

The larger issue is, why would a perfectly kind God allow temptation in the first place?

Made in His image, male and female made He them. Why? To perfect dominion over satan. In so doing to claim a new position thru the new creation to which the purpose of God will be carried out from before the earth was formed.

 

[Neogaia777]

You didn't read my solution to the Adam-problem in the opening post?

I did, but don't know if I saw a solution in there or not...? I also found it hard to follow as well...

Maybe you could just tell us/me simply what the solution is, to people thinking God evil if He created all of this as a setup or whatever maybe...? Or if He set everything up, made all of this, and us, and predestines or predetermines all, etc...? And there is no changing it ever, etc...?

Including those who will go to heaven or hell, etc...?

Cause it within those bounds or boundaries that maybe conclude if this is truly so with God, then He has to be "evil" etc, but I do not however...

God Bless!

 

[JAL]

I did, but don't know if I saw a solution in there or not...? I also found it hard to follow as well...

Maybe you could just tell us/me simply what the solution is, to people thinking God evil if He created all of this as a setup or whatever maybe...? Or if He set everything up, made all of this, and us, and predestines or predetermines all, etc...? And there is no changing it ever, etc...?

Including those who will go to heaven or hell, etc...?

Cause it within those bounds or boundaries that maybe conclude if this is truly so with God, then He has to be "evil" etc, but I do not however...

God Bless!

I can address all the issues only in Controversial Theology.

The one issue I was addressing here is whether Adam's guilt (or consequences) is transferred to us (thus from one man to the rest of us). That's the traditional view. My view is that we ARE Adam, each of us is literally a physical subsection of his original material soul. I'm confident this is the only possible solution because 2,000 years of effort to find another have come up empty.

 

[royal priest]

(1) Evil magnifies the love of God? A better question, what is the best way to glorify God? Evil? When Scripture says to go forth and bear fruit to the Father's glory, it means evil fruit? And the more evil, the more God is glorified?
(2) Is God so selfish and narcissistic that He'd prefer to impose a reign of unkindness for His own glorification at the expense of even innocent fetuses in the womb? This is your solution to the problem of evil? If anything, you're exacerbating the problem of evil, it seems to me.

1) A command to bear evil fruit would contradict God's good, perfect, and acceptable will. That is why the reward is promised for those who do good and condemnation for those who do evil.
2) In the third chapter of the prophet Jeremiah's lamentation, the Lord gives to us a stellar example of how we ought to view the injustices of this life. Here is an exerpt:

I am the man who has seen affliction
under the rod of his wrath...
surely against me he turns his hand
again and again the whole day long...
though I call and cry for help,
he shuts out my prayers...
he turned aside my steps and tore me to pieces...
my soul is bereft of peace;
I have forgotten what happiness is;
so I say, “My endurance has perished;
so has my hope from the Lord.”...
But this I call to mind, and therefore I have hope:
The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases;
his mercies never come to an end;
they are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness.
“The Lord is my portion,” says my soul,
“therefore I will hope in him.”
The Lord is good to those who wait for him,
to the soul who seeks him.
It is good that one should wait quietly
for the salvation of the Lord.
Let him sit alone in silence...
For the Lord will not cast off forever, but, though he cause grief, he will have compassion
according to the abundance of his steadfast love; for he does not afflict from his heart
or grieve the children of men...
Who has spoken and it came to pass,
unless the Lord has commanded it?
Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that good and bad come?
Why should a living man complain,
a man, about the punishment of his sins?
Let us test and examine our ways,
and return to the Lord!
Let us lift up our hearts and hands
to God in heaven.

Notice Whom Jeremiah is complaining against. He doesn't deny the sovereignty of his God behind his suffering. He lays the burden of it squarely on the Lord. But notice also how Jeremiah keeps his complaint in check. He doesn't go into denial pretending that God is not in charge of His creation. Nor does He accuse God of injustice. Rather, the prophet argues for hope in God by considering the heart of compassion behind the Hand that afflicts. Some of God's reason for afflicting His children is to teach them to wait patiently for their salvation. Though the earth groans for deliverance, the Lord will not return until He has accomplished His redeeming purposes for His people.

 

[zoidar]

Unborn fetuses deserve what? They deserve to inherit Adam's horrible sinful nature? Tell me, what did they do to deserve THAT catastrophe?

No they don't deserv that! But what does that have to to do with God? If you are robbed on the street. Did you deserv that? It's not God's doing.

You're insinuating that's God's definition of kindness need not match the human definition of kindness. This is the semantic contradiction refuted in post 12.

My mom often says: "If I was God, I would save everyone." That is human kindness. But that's not God's kindness. In His kindness He saves those who come to him. God's kindness is based on a much bigger picture than human kindness.

 

[Neogaia777]

No they don't deserv that! But what does that have to to do with God? If you are robbed on the street. Did you deserv that? It's not God's doing.



My mom often says: "If I was God, I would save everyone." That is human kindness. But that's not God's kindness. In His kindness He saves those who come to him. God's kindness is based on a much bigger picture than human kindness.

He makes "all" "right", especially in the end, especially in the afterlife, or in life everlasting, etc...

We just need to have faith in that, in His goodness when it comes to that, etc...

And it doesn't have to come from "knowing" it, or knowing every single detail of it from or with or beyond any shadow of a doubt kind of thing either, otherwise, how could it be faith...

God Bless!

 

[Redwingfan9]

With God anything goes, then? He can be as evil and unjust as He wants to be but, because He is God, we still have to call it 'kindness' ? I refuted that semantic contradiction at post 12.

God is only limited insofar as he cannot sin. I'm not suggesting God sins or can sin at all. I'm suggesting that it is unwise to hold God to mankind's standards of nice, kind and evil.

 

[Neostarwcc]

So you think that a maximally good God would create Adam and Eve foreknowing their sin, instead of creating, say, Bob and Sue foreknown to remain holy? When I see this kind of thinking, I'd like to discuss a version of Open Theism but suspect it's restricted to the Controversial Theology forum.

Like I said before, he created humanity because he loved us and desired to be with us for forever which was always his intention whether or not we sinned. If Adam and Eve never brought sin into the world all of humanity would have loved God and been with him forever and nobody would have ever died...etc. The same things that God's going to return to make happen again. We would have been his perfect creation forever. But since they freely chose to sin on their own by the influence of Lucifer and wanted to become gods just like Lucifer did both God and the world has to wait for that kind of paradise.

That's like asking why God created Lucifer and a third of his angels even though he knew that Lucifer and those third of his angels would betray him and try to overthrow him to become gods. He could have not created them either but he created them for the same reason he created humanity.

God created Lucifer because he loved him, wanted to be with him for forever and wanted to give Lucifer the free will chance to change his mind. Just like humanity. Both of us sinned and did what God foreknew in his heart would happen. The only difference is, there's no hope for Lucifer and the fallen angels because God didn't die for them. If God didn't make a plan for humanity and be willing to die for us then there would be no hope for us either and God would have been perfectly just and good to do so and to punish us for eternity just like Satan. But he chose to save us before he even formed us or our universe. Idk about you, but that proves that God loves us more than he ever loved Satan or his demons or anything he ever created or ever will create and that God is a good God because he could also easily punish us and still maintain his good and sinless character. But thank God that God is also a God of mercy and forgiveness. That's DEFINITELY saying something because Satan and his demons once obeyed him without question and lived with him for many many years. According to scripture Lucifer was once his most loyal Angel out of any other Angel that he ever created.

Also there will never be a fall ever again. God who can see throughout entire eternity and time because he is outside of time has promised us that no fall will ever happen again. No human who he creates perfect again in a better way than before will ever sin again and our sins and our pain, and our suffering, will just be a distant memory. Or maybe eventually even be forgotten about completely as we continue to experience God's love, friendship, and greatness for a long enough time. Think about it eternity is a LONG time. Our lives on this Earth are not even a fraction of a millisecond compared to what an Eternity is. If God decides to create more things, they will be with him and us for eternity as well. Never to sin again. Idk about you, but that's a WONDERFUL promise and God ALWAYS keeps his promises.

But you seem to be lost and angry with God and unwilling to accept anything anybody has told you in this thread. We have proven that God is a good and just God but you seem to be of deaf ears. I will be praying for you and hoping that your clear suffering and anger towards God will just melt away.

 

[renniks]

I already answered this. You are making false dichotomy. All these things that you regard as valuable such as each of us having free will and the ability to experience kindness and beauty do not logically necessitate a world where unborn fetuses suffer for the actions of their parents.

According to you, a mere human who can not possibly know what is best for man...

 

[JAL]

1) A command to bear evil fruit would contradict God's good, perfect, and acceptable will. That is why the reward is promised for those who do good and condemnation for those who do evil.
2) In the third chapter of the prophet Jeremiah's lamentation, the Lord gives to us a stellar example of how we ought to view the injustices of this life. Here is an exerpt:

I am the man who has seen affliction
under the rod of his wrath...
surely against me he turns his hand
again and again the whole day long...
though I call and cry for help,
he shuts out my prayers...
he turned aside my steps and tore me to pieces...
my soul is bereft of peace;
I have forgotten what happiness is;
so I say, “My endurance has perished;
so has my hope from the Lord.”...
But this I call to mind, and therefore I have hope:
The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases;
his mercies never come to an end;
they are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness.
“The Lord is my portion,” says my soul,
“therefore I will hope in him.”
The Lord is good to those who wait for him,
to the soul who seeks him.
It is good that one should wait quietly
for the salvation of the Lord.
Let him sit alone in silence...
For the Lord will not cast off forever, but, though he cause grief, he will have compassion
according to the abundance of his steadfast love; for he does not afflict from his heart
or grieve the children of men...
Who has spoken and it came to pass,
unless the Lord has commanded it?
Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that good and bad come?
Why should a living man complain,
a man, about the punishment of his sins?
Let us test and examine our ways,
and return to the Lord!
Let us lift up our hearts and hands
to God in heaven.

Notice Whom Jeremiah is complaining against. He doesn't deny the sovereignty of his God behind his suffering. He lays the burden of it squarely on the Lord. But notice also how Jeremiah keeps his complaint in check. He doesn't go into denial pretending that God is not in charge of His creation. Nor does He accuse God of injustice. Rather, the prophet argues for hope in God by considering the heart of compassion behind the Hand that afflicts. Some of God's reason for afflicting His children is to teach them to wait patiently for their salvation. Though the earth groans for deliverance, the Lord will not return until He has accomplished His redeeming purposes for His people.

How does all this address Adam? You cited Jeremiah. Fine. What about Ezekiel 18 where a child isn't to suffer for the sins of a father such as father-Adam? You can't cogently rave on and on about the abundance of God's goodness expressed in Jeremiah if this God is the same monster who punishes 100 billion innocent people for the sin of the one man Adam. That's what this thread is dealing with.

 

[JAL]

According to you, a mere human who can not possibly know what is best for man...

But if everyone said, "I take no position on any of the issues because we are mere humans who don't know anything", that would be fine.

But the church DOES take a position. It is therefore incumbent upon theologians to avoid positions full of logical contradictions.

 

[renniks]

But if everyone said, "I take no position on any of the issues because we are mere humans who don't know anything", that would be fine.

But the church DOES take a position. It is therefore incumbent upon theologians to avoid positions full of logical contradictions.

All I have been able to gather so far is that you think it's unfair that we are born sinners. Since there is a solution to the problem I don't see what your issue is.

 

[JAL]

Like I said before, he created humanity because he loved us and desired to be with us for forever which was always his intention whether or not we sinned. If Adam and Eve never brought sin into the world all of humanity would have loved God and been with him forever and nobody would have ever died...etc. The same things that God's going to return to make happen again. We would have been his perfect creation forever. But since they freely chose to sin on their own by the influence of Lucifer and wanted to become gods just like Lucifer did both God and the world has to wait for that kind of paradise.

That's like asking why God created Lucifer and a third of his angels even though he knew that Lucifer and those third of his angels would betray him and try to overthrow him to become gods. He could have not created them either but he created them for the same reason he created humanity.

Exactly. That is an implicit part of the question when we're asking about the problem of evil. It should be addressed.

God created Lucifer because he loved him...

Nope. That certainly doesn't work. Foreknowing that Lucifer would sin, God created him anyway? When instead He could have created, say, an angel named Vincent foreknown to remain holy. What kind of love is that?

The church has never provided satisfactory answers to these questions because it simply is not possible on a traditional understanding of God. Some reform is needed here.

But you seem to be lost and angry with God...

Oh believe me, I was indeed very angry with God, back when I was originally indoctrinated with the traditional definition of Him. But within three years I had reformed to a different definition that made quite a bit more sense.

... and unwilling to accept anything anybody has told you in this thread. We have proven that God is a good and just God but you seem to be of deaf ears.

No need to prove to me that God is good. What am I challenging you to prove is that the traditional definition of God and Adam extrapolate to His goodness. They do not.

 

[Neogaia777]

Like I said before, he created humanity because he loved us and desired to be with us for forever which was always his intention whether or not we sinned. If Adam and Eve never brought sin into the world all of humanity would have loved God and been with him forever and nobody would have ever died...etc. The same things that God's going to return to make happen again. We would have been his perfect creation forever. But since they freely chose to sin on their own by the influence of Lucifer and wanted to become gods just like Lucifer did both God and the world has to wait for that kind of paradise.

That's like asking why God created Lucifer and a third of his angels even though he knew that Lucifer and those third of his angels would betray him and try to overthrow him to become gods. He could have not created them either but he created them for the same reason he created humanity.

God created Lucifer because he loved him, wanted to be with him for forever and wanted to give Lucifer the free will chance to change his mind. Just like humanity. Both of us sinned and did what God foreknew in his heart would happen. The only difference is, there's no hope for Lucifer and the fallen angels because God didn't die for them. If God didn't make a plan for humanity and be willing to die for us then there would be no hope for us either and God would have been perfectly just and good to do so and to punish us for eternity just like Satan. But he chose to save us before he even formed us or our universe. Idk about you, but that proves that God loves us more than he ever loved Satan or his demons or anything he ever created or ever will create and that God is a good God because he could also easily punish us and still maintain his good and sinless character. But thank God that God is also a God of mercy and forgiveness. That's DEFINITELY saying something because Satan and his demons once obeyed him without question and lived with him for many many years. According to scripture Lucifer was once his most loyal Angel out of any other Angel that he ever created.

Also there will never be a fall ever again. God who can see throughout entire eternity and time because he is outside of time has promised us that no fall will ever happen again. No human who he creates perfect again in a better way than before will ever sin again and our sins and our pain, and our suffering, will just be a distant memory. Or maybe eventually even be forgotten about completely as we continue to experience God's love, friendship, and greatness for a long enough time. Think about it eternity is a LONG time. Our lives on this Earth are not even a fraction of a millisecond compared to what an Eternity is. If God decides to create more things, they will be with him and us for eternity as well. Never to sin again. Idk about you, but that's a WONDERFUL promise and God ALWAYS keeps his promises.

But you seem to be lost and angry with God and unwilling to accept anything anybody has told you in this thread. We have proven that God is a good and just God but you seem to be of deaf ears. I will be praying for you and hoping that your clear suffering and anger towards God will just melt away.

Do we have to choose Him (God), and does or did or does he already know that or those choices, way, way, way, ahead of time, like, before even making us the way we are...? And, that's another thing, did he make us the way we are, including all of how we would all (supposedly) "choose" ect...?

I'm not trying to attack you at all, in fact I really like your post, it's just that, we seem to have some need to have "everything figured out", and all to few will just "take it on faith", so to speak, that the all-knowing, fully omniscient from the very beginning, and from the very beginning to it's, and each one of ours, ending(s); "God", is "good"...

The One who made those and made "all" the way they are, or it is... including how they or you or me will and will not choose, etc, and who will go to either heaven or hell, based on His choices and decisions to choose us, and having already chose us from the beginning according to "how He made us", (to be one of the saved or spared ones, etc) and not necessarily our choice to choose Him, or due to how we made or make ourselves, but by His choices and making alone, ect... although that is the way it would "seem" from "our point of view", (that we must choose Him), and, from our point of view, that choice does matter, and matters very much so, and is very crucial, even if that choice has already been made, and already made up for you, by this particular "God" that I speak of... Who is the Highest God, etc... God the Father, Jesus Father, and our Heavenly Father, etc...

Anyway, I could go on, but, do you have the faith that this God is good...?

Because I'm wondering if that God is not the God that the OP or original poster is talking about or not...?

God Bless!

 

[JAL]

All I have been able to gather so far is that you think it's unfair that we are born sinners. Since there is a solution to the problem I don't see what your issue is.

My issue is that the church has historically rejected the only solution that works and, even today, still hasn't officially and publicly accepted it aside from the concessions of maybe a couple of noted scholars. They haven't repented, they haven't recanted, of a doctrine that, for almost 2,000 years, has extrapolated unto a monstrous God. Hence most Christians in the pew still, even today, are only being taught one unsatisfactory version of theodicy.

 

[JAL]

No they don't deserv that! But what does that have to to do with God? If you are robbed on the street. Did you deserv that? It's not God's doing.

If you hold to Adam-as-our-rep who imbibed those robbers with a sinful nature, that is indeed God's doing. Even if you hold to the Orthodox view that we only suffer the consequences of Adam's sin, you're still left with a God less than maximally kind, for failing to shield us from those consequences. A much better starting point, for a theodicy, therefore, is to accept my theory that each of us IS Adam, that is, a subsection of his original material soul. That's the argument here.

My mom often says: "If I was God, I would save everyone." That is human kindness. But that's not God's kindness. In His kindness He saves those who come to him. God's kindness is based on a much bigger picture than human kindness.

He's not obligated to save anyone. But if He claims to be just and kind, then He shouldn't have us suffering for the sin of an ancestor.