Islam doesn't condone terror

[Montalban]

I based my arguments on facts, ot emotions.
Muhammad did not marry a child, she married a woman, which

I'm not here to argue this, I'm giving it as an example in line with your statement about discussing Islam with people.

However you raised something in relation to trickery.

9 years old is a child, regardless of whether it's acceptable or not.

 

[Montalban]

This is actually true. Back in those times, it was the norm for such things to happen.

So what is 'good' is relative to the era in which it's done?

Why's it bad now?

Just as other things listed in various holy texts used to happen back then. I have no problems with the things Muhammad did, it's more people trying to advocate still doing those things now, when we know differently, that I have a problem with.

Moslems still advocate it now BECAUSE Muhammed did it. There's no 'End Date' for this behaviour.

 

[plenary]

It seems Islam is blossoming all over the world and it's spreading it's fruits "of peace" in all the corners of the world....
Harrasments and murder, Holy Jihad, all over the world what a blessing it is....

O, please politicians, not a bad word about this religion of peace...

American Thinker: Jihad Has Come to India

In Meerut northeast of New Delhi and far from Deganga, the population of this once Hindu-dominated town is now split down the middle between Hindus and Muslims; and the Hindus are living in fear. Just five days ago before my arrival, a Hindu was burned to death and shortly before that a community leader was targeted and killed. These actions are becoming more common in this substantial-sized town with no police re-action; and according to residents and activists, it is only a matter of time before things explode.

We need more politicians who support Islam... Peace? Who needs it? When we also can have oppression...

A burning here, a killing there.... Nothing wrong with it... As long as no-one opposes allah and his apostle.

 

[Ayersy]

So what is 'good' is relative to the era in which it's done?

Morals and laws change as societies do. Alot of stuff used to happen back then which was considered normal. It doesn't make it 'good' or 'bad'.

We just consider it bad now. So you can't judge people back then by today's moral standards. Ya get me?

Why's it bad now?

We know it's not the best way to act, now. We know it doesn't benefit society. When you learn something new, your perspective changes.

Moslems still advocate it now BECAUSE Muhammed did it. There's no 'End Date' for this behaviour.

That's just it. Don't take it up with Muhammad, it's not his fault that's how things were done back then. I don't see how moaning about the things that he did changes anything. Alot of pretty nasty crap (By today's standards) was done in the Bible, particularly in the OT, but I don't see you having issues with that.

What we do need to do, is try and encourage people to update their thinkings with modern times. What is done in holy texts is not acceptable nowadays, because we know differently, now.

The 'End Date' for this behaviour is when people get the common sense to get with the times, so to speak.

 

[plenary]

The 'End Date' for this behaviour is when people get the common sense to get with the times, so to speak.

And do you think that day will come, when the penalty for apostates is the death penalty?? Do you think secularism is stronger than terror?

 

[Ayersy]

And do you think that day will come, when the penalty for apostates is the death penalty?? Do you think secularism is stronger than terror?

I think, eventually, people will wise up. Happened with Christianity, didn't it?

It's just a case of getting it through to them that those times are gone. People won't accept murdering people for a perceived insult. They need to stand up and say "NO." to them. It's the middle eastern countries that need to wise up, first and foremost. I think it can happen, if the western countries lead by example.

Not saying it'll be any time soon, though.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

Actually, those who are supporting these kind of people are the ones supporting hate crimes. Sadly, some of these supporters come from the Christian faith.

Well, that is your opinion- but fortunately, we have a legal system that allows this type of issue to be decided in a court of law in the country where it occurred. This is already happening in Holland where Geert Wilder is facing charges related to his comments about Islam.

But I am getting very concerned that, despite the OP, you still won't renounce the murder of someone who is exercising their right to free speech. You keep dancing around the question and being evasive- so c'mon, what are you afraid of?

And if you can't even do that on a Christian forum site, then it is little wonder that millions of Muslims also believe the Qu'ran requires them to murder infidels who are simply exercising their right of free speech.

Ah well- it could be worse; we could have Shariah Law where the murder of someone for insulting Muhammed, or otherwise exercising their right of free speech, would be "legal".

.

 

[plenary]

Ah well- it could be worse; we could have Shariah Law where the murder of someone for insulting Muhammed, or otherwise exercising their right of free speech, would be "legal".

Yes, and apparently, the "insulting" of Muhammad of Islam, is open to interpretation... So if anyone has criticism, that is enough for the execution of a human being...

I've pasted this before, but I will re-paste it, because the man fought for human dignity and the least we can do is honor the man:

Pakistan’s only Christian cabinet minister, Shahbaz Bhatti, was
accused of blasphemy after denouncing the cold-blooded murder
of two Catholic brothers in handcuffs outside a courtroom last year.
On Wednesday, Islamic fundamentalists succeeded in carrying out
the death sentence, in accordance with Sharia law.

It makes your stomach turn.

One of the most influential Islamic scholars of the modern age, Egyptian Sayyid Qutb, says that Muslims have a duty to overthrow any non-Islamic governments by violent means. He explains:

"Islam is not merely a belief, so that it is enough merely to preach it. Islam, which is a way of life, takes practical steps to organize a movement for freeing man. Other societies do not give it [Islam] any opportunity to organize its followers according to its own method, and hence it is the duty of Islam to annihilate all such systems, as they are obstacles in the way of universal freedom. Only in this manner can the way of life be wholly dedicated to Allah, so that neither any human authority nor the question of servitude remains, as is the case in all other systems which are based on man's servitude to man." [Quoted from Andrew Bostom's The Legacy of Jihad]

 

[Servant of Jesus]

I think, eventually, people will wise up. Happened with Christianity, didn't it?

It's just a case of getting it through to them that those times are gone. People won't accept murdering people for a perceived insult. They need to stand up and say "NO." to them. It's the middle eastern countries that need to wise up, first and foremost. I think it can happen, if the western countries lead by example.

Not saying it'll be any time soon, though.

But that's just the point: no one can point to the teachings in the New Testament and to the teaching of Jesus and use them to justify killing someone because they exercise their right to free speech or freedom of religion.

So as a Christian, I can confidently reject any teaching of Jesus that promotes murder and terrorism- because there are no such teachings!

Islam has hundreds of passages that promote terrorism, and the murder of blasphemers- and millions of Muslims believe that these passages still apply today. They can't reject the murder of infidels and blasphemers because they would then be in violation of the Qu'ran's instructions.

Again, I strongly suggest that those of you reading here, who, like most human beings, believe that the universe is created, and is not just an accident- but who are earnestly trying to find out more about the Creator, and what religion truly reflects and honours that Creator, and the love He has for mankind, go to this site.

 

[Yab Yum]

Is your hatred for Muslims so great that you're even willing to support a hateful bigot like Wilders? I can't believe this is a Christian site.

Yeah so let's kill him. That's the point.

 

[Yab Yum]

I think it can happen, if the western countries lead by example.

Not saying it'll be any time soon, though.

We don't kill cartoonists where I live.

 

[Ayersy]

We don't kill cartoonists where I live.

Try it, you might like it.

 

[Yab Yum]

Try it, you might like it.

Sorry, we are not amused.

 

[salida]

Wow, great post. Thanks!!!

No problem.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

Is your hatred for Muslims so great that you're even willing to support a hateful bigot like Wilders? I can't believe this is a Christian site.

No, brother- you're completely missing the point. First, I have never said I "support a hateful bigot like Wilders".

Second, give me a specific example of what Geert Wilders has said that you believe to be "hateful".

Third, if Mr. Wilders has overstepped the bounds of fair comment, then he has to answer to the laws of Holland for that. This matter is presently before the courts- but my bet is that he will be exonerated.

I always fall back on reliable references and people to help me decide what is and is not fair comment; for example, one book I rely on says the following:

13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to."

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are."

and then the same person goes on to say:

33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?"

And where do these comments speaking the truth come from?

Matthew 23 in the Bible; spoken by no other than Jesus.

But despite the strong language, Jesus never encouraged Christians to murder and commit acts of terrorism; and even though He had the power to do so, He never struck people down who did not accept His teachings; He fully respected a person's free will to decide what it is they wish to believe in.

Christians should never be afraid to confront evil and speak the truth!

.

 

[b&wpac7]

13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to."

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are."

and then the same person goes on to say:

33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?"

I don't see truth. I see someone bitter and angry that someone doesn't just accept his word at face value. It's actually probably the absolute worst example of Jesus' behavior you could post with the exception of violently whipping people from the Temple courtyard.

 

[salida]

This is how muslims work who believe in terrorism and sharia; don't be fooled by rheotic.

http://dttj.blogspot.com/2010/07/why-stop-muslim-immigration.html
　
As long as the Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country it will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone.
Note throughout the exponential scale of Islamic influence as the percentage of Muslim population per country increases.

1.0-2.0%
United States, Australia, Canada, China, Italy, Norway

At 2% and 3% they [Muslims] begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs."
2.0-4.0%
Denmark,Germany,United Kingdom,Spain,Italy
From 5% on they [Muslims] exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. They will push for the introduction of halal ("clean" by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves - along with threats for failure to comply (United States).
5.0-9.0%
France,Philippines,Sweden,Switzerland,The Netherlands,Trinidad & Tobago
At this point, they [Muslims] will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, or Islamic law. The ultimate goal of Islam is not to convert the world but to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions (Paris - car burning). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats (Amsterdam, Denmark - Mohammed cartoons, murder of Theo van Gogh).
10.0-15.0%
Guyana,India,Israel,Kenya,Russia
The one anomaly in this set of statistics is Israel, which has not experienced uprisings and threats of violence. Its Arab or Muslim population enjoys equal political rights with Jewish Israelis. The suicide bombings and rocket attacks that have killed hundreds have been perpetrated by outsiders.

After reaching 20% [of a population] expect hair-trigger rioting, Jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning:

Ethiopia: 32.8
After 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare:
40.0-60.0%
Bosnia,Chad,Lebanon
From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and jizya, the tax placed on [conquered] infidels:

60-80%
Albania, Malaysia, Qatar, Sudan
After 80%, expect state-run ethnic cleansing and genocide:"
　　
80-99%
Bangladesh, Egypt, Gaza, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Morocco, Pakistan, Palestine, Syria, Tajikistan,
Turkey, United Arab Emirates

I question the inclusion of "Palestine" in this set. "Palestine" simply means space occupied by stateless "Palestinians" in Gaza and the West Bank, and is the name of the state which Islamists wish to replace Israel, once it is destroyed. Turkey, after decades of having a secular, non-religious government, is beginning to turn "religious," and seems to be yearning for the kind of Muslim government that cleansed the country in 1915 of non-Muslim Armenians in a genocide that predates the Holocaust.
"100% will usher in the peace of ‘Dar-es-Salaam' - the Islamic House of Peace' [more correctly, dar-al-Islam, or Land of Islam]. There is supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim."
99.9-100%
Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Somalia,Yemen

More info.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm
http://standingagainstterrorism.webs.com/thequran.htm
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/quran_teaches.htm
　
Jihad
Quran 9:123 vs. Matthew 10:34
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/sword.htm
　
Terrorist dogma in Mohammads own words
http://prophetofdoom.net/

Peaceful Muslims
American Islamic Forum for Democracy
　

 

[Ayersy]

Sorry, we are not amused.

Wow, tough crowd.

What's the alternative, though? Aside from leading by example, showing them that we can all live side by side, what else can we do?

 

[Servant of Jesus]

I don't see truth. I see someone bitter and angry that someone doesn't just accept his word at face value. It's actually probably the absolute worst example of Jesus' behavior you could post with the exception of violently whipping people from the Temple courtyard.

I appreciate that you would find these comments troublesome.

But those who believe in the teachings of the Tanakh, the Talmud, and the Bible must accept a few tough realities:

1. we are all sinners.

2. God has defined for us certain standards regarding how we are to live our lives- the 10 Commandments, etc.

2. there will be a judgement day.

3. people who are not reconciled with God when they die will be judged by Him- and condemned until eternity to hell.

.

 

[b&wpac7]

I appreciate that you would find these comments troublesome.

But those who believe in the teachings of the Tanakh, the Talmud, and the Bible must accept a few tough realities:

1. we are all sinners.

Ok.

2. God has defined for us certain standards regarding how we are to live our lives- the 10 Commandments, etc.

Ok.

2. there will be a judgement day.

We're going to define this differently.

3. people who are not reconciled with God when they die will be judged by Him- and condemned until eternity to hell.

No.