• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Inkfingers

Somebody's heretic
Site Supporter
May 17, 2014
5,638
1,547
✟205,762.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
What "scapegoat" did Joshua use when he slaughtered all the women and children of the Canaanites, keeping the virgins for him and his men, of course?

What "scapegoat" was used when the hearts of the Canaanites were "hardened" to ensure a more complete slaughter?

What "scapegoat" is used to condone the practice of slavery and the barbaric treatment of slaves?

Christians follow Christ not Joshua.

Muslims still follow Mohammed and still revere the Caliphates.

If Christians followed Joshua, you'd have a point. But we dont. so you dont.
 
Upvote 0

TheGirlOnFire

By order of the Peaky blinders
Site Supporter
Dec 16, 2014
4,123
2,897
Hogwarts
✟177,912.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Labour
I know. But I think the Iraq/Afgan wars could have been more successful if they hadn't been made to be so complicated. I mean, they (the government) declares victory after Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden were killed, but they made it out to be so much more, such as building schools, holding elections, and trying to make people think the way we want them to. In the past, we defeated the enemy and declared victory, such as in WW2. Now they turn war into a nation destroying/rebuilding/reeducating process.

BTW, my original question about 9/11 was to point out that the bad guys attacked us before there was anything done by Bush or Blair.

The wars were ILLEGAL WARS
Everything they had on Hussein was actually doing nothing that they said, it was to do with power and greedy nothing to with the ENEMY.

So because of one terriost group means that 1 million desevered to die for an ILLEGAL WAR .


*Sigh* step away from the tv seriously..........
 
Upvote 0

Euler

Junior Member
Sep 6, 2014
1,163
20
42
✟24,028.00
Faith
Atheist
Christianity had its reformation in an age when the biggest weapons were a cannon ball.

Islam is still 200 years behind but in an era of nuclear weapons.

This is why I say it will take longer and be more difficult. The 'cherry' for Christendom was that people could see life getting better as they turned away from superstitions and old fears and began embracing new technologies, education, etc. These enticements now already exist for the Islamic world, but large sections of them eschew the benefits that would follow. It will take time. And it ultimately has to happen from 'within', just as it did in the West.
 
Upvote 0

Euler

Junior Member
Sep 6, 2014
1,163
20
42
✟24,028.00
Faith
Atheist
Christians follow Christ not Joshua.

Muslims still follow Mohammed and still revere the Caliphates.

If Christians followed Joshua, you'd have a point. But we dont. so you dont.

Joshua's actions are seen by Christians as being God-endorsed. Joshua acts as an agent of God. They see what he did as being perfectly justified.
 
Upvote 0

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
42,748
13,591
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟864,681.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
The wars were ILLEGAL WARS
Everything they had on Hussein was actually doing nothing that they said, it was to do with power and greedy nothing to with the ENEMY.

So because of one terriost group means that 1 million desevered to die for an ILLEGAL WAR .


*Sigh* step away from the tv seriously..........

I thought that's basically what I was saying. The things they were accusing Saddam Hussein of was never substantiated, either before or after capturing him. Same for Ghadaffi in Libya. What it all came down to was, "They're bad guys, and did some bad things in the past, so let's go get them and make everyone feel better".
 
Upvote 0

Tess

Not a tame Lion
Jan 12, 2015
632
303
England
✟25,899.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The 'Western' media and government always look for someone to blame and demonise. In recent years this has been Islam and the Middle East.

It's Orientalism - trying to make it seem like 'they' are some uncivilised culture who want to destroy 'us', when that's completely false. Governments make business of going to war.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Critically Recalculating!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
24,574
11,471
Space Mountain!
✟1,354,829.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The 'Western' media and government always look for someone to blame and demonise. In recent years this has been Islam and the Middle East.

It's Orientalism - trying to make it seem like 'they' are some uncivilised culture who want to destroy 'us', when that's completely false. Governments make business of going to war.

...yes, and racking up ungodly amounts of monetary debt. :doh:
 
Upvote 0

Inkfingers

Somebody's heretic
Site Supporter
May 17, 2014
5,638
1,547
✟205,762.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Joshua's actions are seen by Christians as being God-endorsed. Joshua acts as an agent of God. They see what he did as being perfectly justified.

Yes.

But they don't follow Joshua. They follow Christ, who set a different standard.

The muslims still follow their "joshua".
 
Upvote 0

Senator Cheese

Master of Cheese
Feb 4, 2014
812
96
✟23,914.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
I don't necessarily disagree that the Qur'an and Hadiths are violent at times, but it is categorically untrue that the attitudes of ISIS are 'not unusual' in Islam.

.... If the Quo'ran and the Hadiths are violent at times, then surely you will find that the majority of Muslims believes that these passages are either:

A) worthy of condemnation
or
B) faulty

I have yet to find a Muslim that would agree with you on that note.

Musims for the most part are peaceful, loving, normal people, some of whom are more godly than some Christians. The majority of Muslims are just as shocked and appalled at what ISIS do as we are.

Do you actually know any Muslims? Have you asked them what they think of their prophet? Have you asked them whether they would agree to the statement: "not all of what Mohammad did was perfect"? Would they agree that Mohammad's killing of prisoners of war by decapitation was wrong? Would they agree that Mohammad's decision to "marry" (=deflower) a nine-year-old girl when he was fourty years old was wrong?

Ask them that, and then we'll talk.
I have yet to find a single Muslim that would agree that Mohammad committed acts worthy of condemnation.
Seriously, ask them - I'm not kidding - if you can find a majority of Muslims that will agree that Mohammad was wrong to decapitate prisoners of war for no reason whatsoever other than bloodlust, then I will agree to the notion that "most Muslims are peaceful".

The 'Western' media and government always look for someone to blame and demonise. In recent years this has been Islam and the Middle East.

In my home country, the Western media is trying to convince me that Islam is an absolutely peaceful religion being hijacked by a handful of extremists. I used to buy into the narrative and knew many Muslims that I considered to be my friends.
Then came the last Israel war, and they chanted "Gas the Jews" and mocked the Holocaust, saying "Adolf Hitler didn't kill all Jews so that there would be some left so we'd know why he did it". They also said that they do participate in a moment of silence for the Charlie-Hebdot assassination because they believe the men "deserved it" for "insulting the prophet".
These weren't your beard-wearing turban-muslims, but ACADEMICS in their MID TWENTIES.

We can debate about the use of war and the way our government is corrupt, but you can't try to sell me that the Western media is "demonizing" Islam.
Come to Europe and see for yourself.
 
Upvote 0

Euler

Junior Member
Sep 6, 2014
1,163
20
42
✟24,028.00
Faith
Atheist
Yes.

But they don't follow Joshua. They follow Christ, who set a different standard.

The muslims still follow their "joshua".

Different standard? Aren't Jesus and God one? Did the 'old' God get it wrong and had to be shown a new way? Was he shown that his system of morality was wrong? Must have been an interesting discussion he had with 'himself'!
 
Upvote 0

Euler

Junior Member
Sep 6, 2014
1,163
20
42
✟24,028.00
Faith
Atheist
I disagree, and I think that your post is fear-mongering.

ISIS do terrible, sickening things under the guise of religion.

I don't necessarily disagree that the Qur'an and Hadiths are violent at times, but it is categorically untrue that the attitudes of ISIS are 'not unusual' in Islam.



Do you actually know any Muslims? Have you asked them what they think of their prophet? Have you asked them whether they would agree to the statement: "not all of what Mohammad did was perfect"? Would they agree that Mohammad's killing of prisoners of war by decapitation was wrong? Would they agree that Mohammad's decision to "marry" (=deflower) a nine-year-old girl when he was fourty years old was wrong?

Ask them that, and then we'll talk.
I have yet to find a single Muslim that would agree that Mohammad committed acts worthy of condemnation.
Seriously, ask them - I'm not kidding - if you can find a majority of Muslims that will agree that Mohammad was wrong to decapitate prisoners of war for no reason whatsoever other than bloodlust, then I will agree to the notion that "most Muslims are peaceful".



In my home country, the Western media is trying to convince me that Islam is an absolutely peaceful religion being hijacked by a handful of extremists. I used to buy into the narrative and knew many Muslims that I considered to be my friends.
Then came the last Israel war, and they chanted "Gas the Jews" and mocked the Holocaust, saying "Adolf Hitler didn't kill all Jews so that there would be some left so we'd know why he did it". They also said that they do participate in a moment of silence for the Charlie-Hebdot assassination because they believe the men "deserved it" for "insulting the prophet".
These weren't your beard-wearing turban-muslims, but ACADEMICS in their MID TWENTIES.

We can debate about the use of war and the way our government is corrupt, but you can't try to sell me that the Western media is "demonizing" Islam.
Come to Europe and see for yourself.

Yes, I would agree with Sam Harris on this one - "It's not only Islamic fundamentalists that should worry us - it's the fundamentals of Islam." Or words to that effect.

But we could have made the same analysis of most religions at various times.
 
Upvote 0

Senator Cheese

Master of Cheese
Feb 4, 2014
812
96
✟23,914.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
This is why I say it will take longer and be more difficult. The 'cherry' for Christendom was that people could see life getting better as they turned away from superstitions and old fears and began embracing new technologies, education, etc. These enticements now already exist for the Islamic world, but large sections of them eschew the benefits that would follow. It will take time. And it ultimately has to happen from 'within', just as it did in the West.

I believe the difference to be rooted in scriptural basis.

The idea of a Christian reformation was going on during a time in which most of the populace could not understand Christian scripture because it was written in Latin. As the sermons were also held in Latin, they were lead to believe that paying off sins had any biblical merit.
Luther pretty much said: "Hey guys, here's a translation - READ what's in the Bible, the clergy is taking advantage of you!"

In Islam, the scriptural basis is inherently violent and despicable, which is why a reformation would only be a legitimate possibility of parts of the Hadiths or Quoran are explicitly condemned.
Kind of like someone saying "Hey guys, your book is wrong. DON'T READ what's in the Quoran, it's just plain wrong!"

Someone who condones and encourages violence is not taking Christianity too seriously, but not seriously enough.
Someone who condones and encourages violence is taking Islam seriously.
 
Upvote 0

Euler

Junior Member
Sep 6, 2014
1,163
20
42
✟24,028.00
Faith
Atheist
I believe the difference to be rooted in scriptural basis.

The idea of a Christian reformation was going on during a time in which most of the populace could not understand Christian scripture because it was written in Latin. As the sermons were also held in Latin, they were lead to believe that paying off sins had any biblical merit.
Luther pretty much said: "Hey guys, here's a translation - READ what's in the Bible, the clergy is taking advantage of you!"

In Islam, the scriptural basis is inherently violent and despicable, which is why a reformation would only be a legitimate possibility of parts of the Hadiths or Quoran are explicitly condemned.
Kind of like someone saying "Hey guys, your book is wrong. DON'T READ what's in the Quoran, it's just plain wrong!"

Someone who condones and encourages violence is not taking Christianity too seriously, but not seriously enough.
Someone who condones and encourages violence is taking Islam seriously.

Would that be the same enlightened Luther whose extreme antisemitic ravings brought on a series of vicious pogroms against the Jews in Germany?
 
Upvote 0

Shempster

ImJustMe
Site Supporter
Dec 28, 2014
1,561
787
✟281,411.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It all goes back to Isaac & Ishmael. The big showdown is now ramping up.

Try not to look at the enemy as a different religion. The real enemy is Satan and it looks like he will be using Islam in a big way in the great tribulation.

Pray for peaceful & spiritual Muslims...they can still know Jesus!
 
Upvote 0

Tess

Not a tame Lion
Jan 12, 2015
632
303
England
✟25,899.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Do you actually know any Muslims? Have you asked them what they think of their prophet?

In my home country, the Western media is trying to convince me that Islam is an absolutely peaceful religion being hijacked by a handful of extremists. I used to buy into the narrative and knew many Muslims that I considered to be my friends.

We can debate about the use of war and the way our government is corrupt, but you can't try to sell me that the Western media is "demonizing" Islam.
Come to Europe and see for yourself.

I know lots of Musims, there are several that I consider friends, and two of my closest friends are Muslim.

I have never asked any of my Muslim friends and acquaintances what they think of violent passages, and perhaps I will consider doing so. But that doesn't change the fact they are nice, peaceful, ordinary people! They absolutely believe ISIS are awful just as we do.

I said in my earlier post that I don't wish to debate the violence of the religion itself, because although I am a scholar of religion and I do study Islam, I don't feel I am well educated enough on the subject to be commenting. However, I do want to be quite clear that to say that the majority of Muslims are violent or think violence is okay or think ISIS are doing a good thing is completely false.

In my opinion you must be blind if you don't see that the media is demonising Islam. And I live in Europe.
 
Upvote 0

Inkfingers

Somebody's heretic
Site Supporter
May 17, 2014
5,638
1,547
✟205,762.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Different standard? Aren't Jesus and God one? Did the 'old' God get it wrong and had to be shown a new way? Was he shown that his system of morality was wrong? Must have been an interesting discussion he had with 'himself'!

We are discussing the people, their behaviour and the role-model, not their theology.

Muslims still follow Mohammed's behaviour (which was vile). They have not repudiated his behaviour. It is the core of their values. The occasional "nice" Muslim is actually apostate (and it is good that they are - cafeteria muslims), but Islam itself still takes Mohammed as its guidestone, hence they still behave today as he did then.
 
Upvote 0

Euler

Junior Member
Sep 6, 2014
1,163
20
42
✟24,028.00
Faith
Atheist
We are discussing the people, their behaviour and the role-model, not their theology.

Muslims still follow Mohammed's behaviour (which was vile). They have not repudiated his behaviour. It is the core of their values. The occasional "nice" Muslim is actually apostate (and it is good that they are - cafeteria muslims), but Islam itself still takes Mohammed as its guidestone, hence they still behave today as he did then.

And I would very much welcome the growth of 'cafeteria Muslims' (marketplace Muslims perhaps?) in the same way that I welcome the same effect in Christianity.
 
Upvote 0

Senator Cheese

Master of Cheese
Feb 4, 2014
812
96
✟23,914.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Yes, I would agree with Sam Harris on this one - "It's not only Islamic fundamentalists that should worry us - it's the fundamentals of Islam." Or words to that effect.

But we could have made the same analysis of most religions at various times.

I am not familiar with the name Sam Harris, but I will agree that religious basis can and must be questioned if we are to take responsibility for our own lives and the lives of others. If religious teachings and basic human consensus on ethics diverge diametrically apart, then it is absolutely appropriate to question religious teachings.

After all, why would God give us conscience and ask us to ignore it?

Would that be the same enlightened Luther whose extreme antisemitic ravings brought on a series of vicious pogroms against the Jews in Germany?

A very good point you're bringing up: one can applaud some actions of an individual while categorically condemning others. I would say that Luthers antisemitism is worthy of condemnation, but that doesn't mean his translation of the Bible wasn't helpful in ushering in an era of reformation to European Christians.

We would have problems, though, if I were to say that "because Luther is perfect, EVERYTHING Luther did and said was perfect and therefore EVERYTHING he did and said is something I should do and say".
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Senator Cheese

Master of Cheese
Feb 4, 2014
812
96
✟23,914.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
I know lots of Musims, there are several that I consider friends, and two of my closest friends are Muslim.

I have never asked any of my Muslim friends and acquaintances what they think of violent passages, and perhaps I will consider doing so. But that doesn't change the fact they are nice, peaceful, ordinary people! They absolutely believe ISIS are awful just as we do.

I would very much welcome you to seek dialogue with your Muslim friends and report what they said here. I am genuinely interested if the experiences that I've had with my Muslim acquaintances are actually representative.
Again: I also had considered them to be very nice, peaceful and "ordinary" until they engaged in clearly antisemitic behavior and, in the talks that followed, admitted that they believe Sharia law to be of higher virtue and higher importance than universal human rights.

I said in my earlier post that I don't wish to debate the violence of the religion itself, because although I am a scholar of religion and I do study Islam, I don't feel I am well educated enough on the subject to be commenting. However, I do want to be quite clear that to say that the majority of Muslims are violent or think violence is okay or think ISIS are doing a good thing is completely false.

I will agree that most Muslims will condemn ISIS, mostly because many mainstream scholars have distanced themselves from this group.
However, I highly doubt that most Muslims will admit that teachings that condone or encourage violence in the Quoran are false - nor that the behavior exhibited by their prophet are false.

Considering recent opinion polls, even the support of the Islamic State is something that many individuals seem to be underestimating, with support going up as much as 7% of all French citizens (corresponding to 27% of young Muslims). http://www.icmunlimited.com/data/media/pdf/New%20EU%20Members-Combined-July%202014-V3.pdf

If you look at a summary of different opinion polls, you will find support for Al Qaida or Bin Laden in ranges above 25% in all Muslim countries except for Turkey.
25% is really not something I would consider an "exception".

Surely, some studies indicate that numbers of "Westernized" Muslims (that prefer secular law over Sharia law) are in the majority - this is something I dearly welcome. Nonetheless, with percentages around 37% for individuals under 25 supporting Sharia law, I would consider that to be a cause for great alarm.

Further studies in Germany conducted by the Institute for Criminology have shown that adherence to Islam increase the risk of committing violent crimes, whereas adherence to all other faiths decreased the risk.
(See page 9: "A high degree of religious faith can be protective from delinquency. It should be noted that there are differences in faith: A high devotion to the Christian faith reduces violent behavior, whereas adherence to Islamic faith increases the risk. [...] Furthermore, religious faith does not hinder integration of young migrants, this does not apply to Muslims however.")

=> I have a question for you now: Do you believe that all of these studies are faulty? Do you really believe that there is nothing, absolutely nothing to the notion that Islam directly contributes to violent crime, terrorism and political extremism?
How do you explain the findings in both these studies and the polls?


In my opinion you must be blind if you don't see that the media is demonising Islam. And I live in Europe.

I don't see anyone demonizing Islam except for Muslims themselves.
Like I said, I have no problem with immigrants of all faces of the planet - I have no problems with religious individuals that don't share my faith and most certainly no problems with individuals who aren't religious at all.
I do have problems when an ideology is becoming rampant under the guise of "religious beliefs" - especially when these so-called moderates suddenly chant "death to the jews" the moment they feel the courage to become politically active.
 
Upvote 0

Senator Cheese

Master of Cheese
Feb 4, 2014
812
96
✟23,914.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
And I would very much welcome the growth of 'cafeteria Muslims' (marketplace Muslims perhaps?) in the same way that I welcome the same effect in Christianity.

As I have stated in my previous post, criminological studies seem to indicate that Christian faith (and all other faiths analyzed) is protective against violent delinquency, whereas Islamic faith is not.

I would therefore welcome more true Christians, Buddhists and Hindus and at the same time applaud the fact that more and more Muslims are going "marketplace". :)
 
Upvote 0