Isis,

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Depends how you cherry pick the teachings of each faith.

To be honest, I don't think the hate filled misinformation spreading is any less violent than actually waving a gun around.

To me it is not about the "teachings of the faith". The Quran and Bible both have nasty bits and they both have wonderful bits that promote peace and wisdom.

You cannot deny the fact that Jesus, Buddha, Laozi, Confucius, Zoroaster, Paul, Guru Nanak and virtually any other major religious figure did not raise armies which slaughtered thousands nor did they conquer lands and build a political empire. From 622 AD to 632 AD, almost every major event in Mohammad's life involves battle, siege and death.

Even if Muhammad's writings were benign and peaceful, his life spoke otherwise. I find it difficult to believe that he was a man of peace/healing/wisdom in the same way that other major religious leaders were.

If Muhammad is the man which Muslims are meant to emulate and look up to as a "man of God", then that is worrying to me. It is to be welcomed when Muslims are moderates who don't follow Muhammad's example.

 

[durangodawood]

To me it is not about the "teachings of the faith". The Quran and Bible both have nasty bits and they both have wonderful bits that promote peace and wisdom.

Yeah....BUT

The Bible clearly illustrates moral evolution over time, with earlier barbarity being replaced by better things.

The Quran, on the other hand, purports to be a FINAL revelation from God. Islam is stuck with any barbarity prescribed therein.

 

[ebia]

To me it is not about the "teachings of the faith". The Quran and Bible both have nasty bits and they both have wonderful bits that promote peace and wisdom.

You cannot deny the fact that Jesus, Buddha, Laozi, Confucius, Zoroaster, Paul, Guru Nanak and virtually any other major religious figure did not raise armies which slaughtered thousands nor did they conquer lands and build a political empire. From 622 AD to 632 AD, almost every major event in Mohammad's life involves battle, siege and death.

You list seems to conveniently miss, say, Joshua and David.

 

[ebia]

Yeah....BUT

The Bible clearly illustrates moral evolution over time, with earlier barbarity being replaced by better things.

Well, that's one way of reading it.
But it doesn't seem to be the consensus.

 

[Aldebaran]

Yep. There you have it. The only argument you can really put to ISIS types as a theist: "well, they have the wrong god".

Implying that if they had the RIGHT god, then what they are doing would be actually fine.

If they had the right God, they wouldn't be chopping off the heads of innocent people. I think you'll agree with that.

 

[durangodawood]

If they had the right God, they wouldn't be chopping off the heads of innocent people. I think you'll agree with that.

People who have the right God.... do they not sometimes commit terrible acts???

 

[Euler]

If they had the right God, they wouldn't be chopping off the heads of innocent people. I think you'll agree with that.

Unless your name was Joshua of course.

 

[Aldebaran]

People who have the right God.... do they not sometimes commit terrible acts???

Sometimes, but not as a matter of lifestyle, or as a regular practice of what they believe.

Unless your name was Joshua of course.

Or unless it's Euler, apparently.

 

[Euler]

Or unless it's Euler, apparently.

I bet you thought you were being really clever when you wrote that.

Please explain how Euler (either the original or me) could be compared with Joshua, who supposedly used the commands of the "right God" to justify his "chopping the heads off innocent people."?

Not so clever was it?

 

[ebia]

Or unless it's Euler, apparently.

What?

 

[Aldebaran]

I bet you thought you were being really clever when you wrote that.

Please explain how Euler (either the original or me) could be compared with Joshua, who supposedly used the commands of the "right God" to justify his "chopping the heads off innocent people."?

Not so clever was it?

Did Joshua chop off the heads of innocent people, as you stated?

 

[Euler]

Did Joshua chop off the heads of innocent people, as you stated?

By the thousands, it is claimed. And how many did (either) Euler chop?

 

[Aldebaran]

By the thousands, it is claimed. And how many did (either) Euler chop?

Was it done according to what God commanded him to do according to God (assuming it was as you say), or is Euler the almighty of the universe? The point is, God is God. Euler is not above God.

 

[Euler]

Was it done according to what God commanded him to do according to God (assuming it was as you say), or is Euler the almighty of the universe? The point is, God is God. Euler is not above God.

Huh???

You claim that people obeying the "right God" wouldn't kill innocent people. I make the point that, according to you lot, Joshua was following the "right God" when he did exactly that.

And you come up with that as a result??

Oh boy.

 

[Aldebaran]

Huh???

You claim that people obeying the "right God" wouldn't kill innocent people. I make the point that, according to you lot, Joshua was following the "right God" when he did exactly that.

And you come up with that as a result??

Oh boy.

The creator of the universe knows who is guilty and who is innocent. Were you there, and did you know those people back in Joshua's time? You wouldn't even know today amongst "thousands of people" who is innocent and who is guilty more than God would. Yet you judge God and Joshua as if you know better than they did.

Seriously, that takes a level of arrogance that's off the charts!

 

[Euler]

The creator of the universe knows who is guilty and who is innocent. Were you there, and did you know those people back in Joshua's time? You wouldn't even know today amongst "thousands of people" who is innocent and who is guilty more than God would. Yet you judge God and Joshua as if you know better than they did.

Seriously, that takes a level of arrogance that's off the charts!

Oh, the irony is delicious! The man who brags that he worships the "right God", to the exclusion of all others, is telling someone else that they are arrogant!

Listen. Yes I judge. And I do so, using exactly the same metric that you do! It's called secular morality. Because, unless you are some kind of monster, you would consider it a barbaric atrocity to slaughter unarmed women and babes in arms.

Every time. Regardless of what God those people worshipped. Regardless of the 'sins' that their countrymen had committed. Tell me that you would consider it just, for example, to round up all the women, children and babies of the ISIS thugs and put them to death.

After you've culled out all of the virgins, of course, to "keep for yourself"!

Please tell me that sits well with your sense of morality.

So yes, I know better than that imagined God of yours.

And so do you.

 

[durangodawood]

The creator of the universe knows who is guilty and who is innocent. Were you there, and did you know those people back in Joshua's time? You wouldn't even know today amongst "thousands of people" who is innocent and who is guilty more than God would. Yet you judge God and Joshua as if you know better than they did.

Seriously, that takes a level of arrogance that's off the charts!

???

You judge ISIS by their actions. But not Joshua.

Why the double-standard?

 

[Euler]

???

You judge ISIS by their actions. But not Joshua.

Why the double-standard?

Because Joshua served the "right god"!

The circles make you dizzy, don't they?

 

[ebia]

Because Joshua served the "right god"!

Except:

If they had the right God, they wouldn't be chopping off the heads of innocent people. I think you'll agree with that.

The circles make you dizzy, don't they?

Indeed

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

You list seems to conveniently miss, say, Joshua and David.

I don't think that either Joshua or David represent "major religious figures". Neither of them started a religion or were the founder of a religious movement. And no religion explicitly seeks to worship, follow or emulate them as a central figure to their religious doctrine.

As I said before, both the Quran and Bible have nasty bits. But it is the fact that Mohammad is the central and primary figure of Islam which, to me, is somewhat worrisome. It is Mohammad's biography external from the Quran which is more concerning to me than what is contained within the Quran.

If Christianity's primary figure to worship, follow or emulate was Joshua or David, then the world may very well be a different place and we may be having a very different discussion.