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Featured Isaiah 66:7-9

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Douggg, Aug 23, 2019.

  1. Messenger 3k

    Messenger 3k Member

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    Luckily I don't rely on your opinions but on God's word. My history on this forum isn't hidden. Peruse through as much as you want. It might be of some assistance. I'm a Spirit filled believer blessed with revelations by God. But not of works that any man should boast, so that God chooses to reveal things to the babes and not the learned. Therefore revelations have nothing to do with attitude but on faith without which it impossible to please God. You'd know this if you studied better.

    Again, I reitirate, you have no case.

    I am not condescending. I'm merely being honest. You on the other hand are being condescending by drifting off of the main issue at hand to issues that should have no place in said discussion; like scripture versions and my history on this forum.

    Scripture versions may have wrong renderings sometimes, even the KJV does. Hence I don't rely on a singular scripture version but on every one at my disposal and most importantly, on the Holy Spirit helping me navigate through these versions.

    If you don't agree with that, the onus rests on you to align scriptures with scriptures buttressing your point. Not to attack my choice of scripture version. That's frankly, baseless.

    Isaiah 9:6,

    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (KJV)


    Isaiah 66:7-8,

    Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. (KJV)

    Again, how do these scriptures align?
     
  2. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
    'Science' like evolution and speculations like the big Bang, are from the devil, but observed phenomena such as CME's from the sun are in another category altogether.

    We do have modern knowledge, you do use modern conveniences, I presume; so why reject data that informs us of how a Bible prophecy can be literally fulfilled?
    However, if what I present conflicts with your set beliefs, then only as things happen, will you finally realize the truth of what God has planned.
     
  3. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Again, "she was delivered of a man child" = "unto us a son is given"

    Zion is another term for Israel.

    "Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once?"

    Israel became a nation again in one day, May 15, 1948.

    "and the government shall be upon his shoulder:"

    Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

    14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

    That's the government of Isaiah 9:6. To be established here on earth, in the end times, in Daniel 2:42-44, in the days of the ten kings...


    42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

    43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

    44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

    back to Daniel 7.

    24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

    25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

    26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

    27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

    then to Revelation 12:10

    When Zion delivers her children of Isaiah 66:8.


    10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God [to the Jews], and the power of his Christ [the Jews receive Jesus]: for the accuser of our brethren [the Jews] is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night [for the past 2000 years of having rejected Jesus].

    Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. (Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.*) *Daniel 7:13-14


    The man child of Isaiah 66:7....she (the woman Zion, Israel) was delivered of a man child.

    Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

    The same time, times, half times period of Daniel 7:25 above.

    Revelation 12:17, the Jews who will not have fled to the mountains in time.

    17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Which is the final pain inferred in "Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came," of Isaiah 66:7.


    Roman 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    So in Revelation 12, the woman Israel delivered the man-child in the text. In Isaiah 66:7, she delivers a man child. Isaiah 9:6 unto us (Israel) a child is borne, the government on his shoulders. In Daniel 7:13-14, caught up to God and His throne, Jesus receives the everlasting government. in Daniel 2, in the days of the ten kings, God sets up the government here on earth. In Revelation 12:10, the Jews receive Jesus, as Zion delivers her children to Salvation. And Jesus returns at the end of the time, times, half times to end the persecution of the beast and Satan, and to begin the messianic era.

     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
  4. Messenger 3k

    Messenger 3k Member

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    Correction. When God is concerned, I can throw out both baby and bathwater at His request because He can always provide another baby.

    Because we don't use things to test God's words; we use God's word to test all things. I haven't concluded that some CME data is inaccurate. I have only decided to rely on what scripture tells me alone, because I am not unaware of the devices of the enemy.

    Scriptures tell me the sun and moon will become brighter during the day of the Lord. That's all I need to know and believe. I'm not really concerned with the scientific process involved. Not because I don't know enough science, but because I know enough of how crafty the devil is.

    Because God's word is the source of my faith. And modern knowledge, when it contradicts God's word, interferes with my faith.

    Modern appliances on the other hand do not interfere with my faith. Because I do not need to know how they scientifically operate in order to use them. Therefore my faith remains intact.

    And in the end, faith is all we have.
     
  5. Messenger 3k

    Messenger 3k Member

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    Listen, I am not trying to make anyone subservient to myself. Stop spewing accusations back and forth like a child; you are more than twice my age, you act like it.

    If you feel the onus doesn't rest on you to align scriptures with scriptures in any case, "thought for thought" or "word for word", feel free. But I maintain that you're wrong and I am unapologetic about it; whether you choose to bask in pride or not.

    Do not respond to my posts if you want, and perhaps wait for someone else who agrees with you, it changes nothing.

    Wrong. More accurately, Zion is another term for the city of God's people. And Jerusalem, in Judah, more technically, a mountain/hill in Jerusalem was generally associated with Zion. Hence the word 'Mount Zion'.

    Isaiah 30:19,

    For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem: thou shalt weep no more...(KJV)

    More so, "God's people" in this era applies to both Jewish and gentile believers, For as God's people/children, we are called by God's name, hence the word "Israel", Isra-El.
    El meaning "God" in Hebrew, as in "El ohim", "El shaddai". Hence we are called by His name. Same as the angelic sons of God: Micha-El, Gabri-El, Rapha-El, Uri-El.

    Isaiah 43:6-7,
    I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him. (KJV)

    Therefore in the context of Isaiah 66, Zion more accurately refers to God's people at the last days.

    That scripture was a question meant to buttress the idea of a woman giving birth without going through labor.

    It says, "shall the earth be made to bring forth (a nation) in one day? or (another perspective) shall a nation be born at once?

    It goes further to specify the nation it's referring to being Zion which as I've explained earlier, technically is the city of God's people.

    8,

    ...for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. (plural, not singular male child) (KJV)

    The 'government upon his shoulder' was referring to the government of Rome being against Him. I don't even need to explain this.

    Again, I don't really need to explain this. The devil wasn't cast down in the timeframe of Revelation 12. That was a history lesson.
    Sometimes we must accept that certain things are mysteries and treat them as such unless we have some in depth revelation on such issues.

    We know when the death and Resurrection of Jesus took place. Yet scripture says He was slain from the foundation of the world. How do you explain that?

    Revelation 13:8,

    And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (KJV)
     
  6. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I deleted that portion of my post before you responded, to get off the merry go round.

    There are lot better ways to communicate with others that you disagree with on any particular. Like instead of saying the onus is on "you" the other person, which is aggressive wording, say something like I disagree because of "such and such reason" and ask the other person to clarify their view regarding some of the points you disagree on.

    Address the issues without all the sermonizing, and without how your interpretation is by the Holy Spirit - which implies that you are specially gifted - and the other person has to therefore be wrong. None of those things are necessary for the topics at hand in the eschatology forum. And they do nothing but start back and forth contentious bickering. Which often times gets threads closed by the moderators. You are not alone in that regards of making unnecessary contentious comments though, I must say.
     
  7. Messenger 3k

    Messenger 3k Member

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    "You deleted that portion..." doesn't change the fact that you wrote it. And I responded to it means I must have seen it before you deleted it. You can apologize if you feel you erred in that respect, heaven will not fall.

    If you don't like the Holy Spirit, I cannot help you.

    If you don't like the fact that I mention how I rely on the Holy Spirit to teach me all things and how I cannot rely on my own wisdom and knowledge but on the Wisdom and Knowledge He provides and how I can do nothing of my own efforts alone, I cannot help you.

    In short, if you don't like how I mention that I am absolutely nothing without the Holy Spirit, I cannot help you.

    You are still wrong. And that has not changed.
     
  8. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Zion does refer to Jerusalem. Zion is the heart of Israel. They are one and the same, regarding the children of Israel.

    The popular movement called Zionism is about a homeland for the Jews in the land of Israel, not just in Jerusalem.

    No, I disagree, with that notion you are presenting of being both Jews and Gentiles - which you are implying the church, I think?

    Which if Zion refers to Israel, the Jews, and them embracing Jesus in the last days - runs counter to your belief that the church has become Israel ? I am asking if that is one of your beliefs.

    What parts of Revelation 12 are you viewing as a history lesson?

    I think that you are misunderstanding what particular heaven is being referred to in Revelation 12:7-9. It is the second heaven, not the third heaven where God's throne is.

    In Revelation 12:7-9, of Satan being cast down to earth, he has but a time, times, half times left in Revelation 12:14. How long, approximately, is a time, times, half times in your view?
    That doesn't match of what it says in Revelation 12:5 of the man-child being born of the woman caught up to heaven. And in Daniel 7:14-15 of him being given and everlasting Kingdom.

    Who do you think the woman is in Revelation 12 ?

    You are drifting off topic.

    It simply means that Jesus being the Savior to man from the fall, was not an after thought.
     
  9. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Messenger - let it go.
     
  10. Messenger 3k

    Messenger 3k Member

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    Douggg, you need that advice.
     
  11. Messenger 3k

    Messenger 3k Member

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    Not necessarily, only in the context of you using them to refer to the whole of Israel. Besides the fact that God's temple was located in Zion, Zion existed in Judah: the part of Israel mostly obeying God's commandments and instructions. Northern Israel, on the other hand, mostly always disobeyed God. This was why 390 days was apportioned to northern Israel for their sins and only 40 days for Judah in Ezekiel 4,

    5-6,
    For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year. (KJV)

    Who then do you think was more likely to be referred to as God's people?

    The fall of Satan is the part I'm referring to as the history lesson. And satan was cast down from the seventh heaven not the third heaven. God's throne is at the seventh heaven and extends all the way to the tenth heaven.

    Jesus being caught up to heaven out of the reach of the dragon was referring to the mystery of the cross.
     
  12. Messenger 3k

    Messenger 3k Member

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    Good. I agree.

    So when is anyone's name written in the book of life? The moment they accept Jesus? or from the foundation of the world?

    Revelation 17:8,

    The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. (KJV)
     
  13. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Everyone's name is written in the book of life - until they commit sin, and then it gets erased. Exodus 32:33.

    It is by the blood of Jesus that a person's name does not get erased because of sin.

    You are going off topic.
     
  14. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    What is your biblical source?

    2Corinthian 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth ; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
     
  15. Messenger 3k

    Messenger 3k Member

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    But nobody is born knowing Jesus; every one is born a sinner until they accept Jesus. So if one was born a sinner and sinned during the period of his unbelief, then by your logic, his name must have been blotted out from the book of life.

    When he does accept Jesus, is his name then written in the book of life again? If so, then his name could not have been written from the foundation of the world as Revelation 17 says.

    You see my point? I'm am not drifting off topic. I'm buttressing an earlier point I made in response to Revelation 12. Which is, certain things are misteries. Especially because scripture doesn't give us enough information to make them clear. This is especially true of events which occurred before or at the foundation of the world, e.g., the fall of satan.

    So it's okay when we admit we don't fully understand these things (yet).

    That being said, I move on.
     
  16. Messenger 3k

    Messenger 3k Member

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    Not everything is laid out plainly in scripture, hence they are called mysteries.

    So sorry, I have no biblical source for that.
     
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I answered your question in my previous post, correctly. And what I wrote is supported by...

    Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
    ______________________________________________________________

    Revellation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


    In Revelation 17:8, it is implying persons who have embraced Jesus, to avoid having their names blotted out. i.e saved from the power of sin.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Well, for now, the source I gave from Paul's writings, is that there are three heavens.

    The heaven in Revelation 12:7-9 is the second heaven, the cosmos. It will be pulled aside in Revelation 6, the sixth seal event.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  19. Messenger 3k

    Messenger 3k Member

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    Revelation 17:8 isn't in anyway referring to people who have embraced Jesus. If anything, it clearly says their names are not written in the book of life.

    More so, when exactly are names blotted out? All at a single time or at different times for different people?

    If at same time or different times for all people then I can understand those in Revelation 13:8, they have received the mark of the beast and worshipped it so their names are possibly blotted out at that moment, understandable. (even though that isn't what it seems like but let's go with it for this scenario).

    Revelation 3:5 is possibly referring to the same set of people, as Revelation 13:8, possibly, they didn't overcome the beast, understandable.

    But Revelation 17:8 is referring to people who had merely just seen the antichrist and were astonished. They hadn't received the mark of the beast yet or worshipped it. How come their names were already blotted out at a different time?

    This is all assuming you choose to go ahead with this mystery.
     
  20. Messenger 3k

    Messenger 3k Member

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    Paul's writings referenced three heavens; but he didn't say that was all there was.

    More so, Revelation 12 didn't specify which of the heavens satan fell from.

    And the cosmos exist in the third heaven, not the second heaven. No scripture specifies that either.
     
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