Isaiah 66:7-9

[Douggg]

Regarding Isaiah 66:7-9, it is actually a prophecy made up of several parts. KJV.

"7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child." This part is referring to when Jesus was born into the world. "Unto us a child is born". But different than the normal process of child birth, Zion had not incurred the pain of travailing before child birth - metaphorically in this part of the prophesy. The pain will come when she delivers her other children, the Jews, in the end times.
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"8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once?....." This part is about Israel becoming a nation again in one day, May 15, 1948. The Jews having come from the nations of the world, following WWII.

".....for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children." This part reflects the parable of the fig tree generation, which during that generation (our generation) the Jews, her children, will become believers in Jesus.

The travailing of Zion - Israel has experienced the pains, in the form of the wars she has gone through since 1948. "for as soon as" indicates that it will not be generations away, once Israel will have become a nation again, May 15, 1948, that the Jews will become believers in Jesus.

The worst of the pains will hit Zion when the Antichrist betrays them, by going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood. At that very point, the Jews eyes will be opened and they will believe on Jesus. But the pain of the Antichrist betraying them will last through the great tribulation, until Jesus returns to save them, physically. They will have already ben saved spiritually at that point, for having believed on Jesus.
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"9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God." God is going to make it happen.

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[Messenger 3k]

"7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child." This part is referring to when Jesus was born into the world. "Unto us a child is born". But different than the normal process of child birth, Zion had not incurred the pain of travailing before child birth - metaphorically in this part of the prophesy. The pain will come when she delivers her other children, the Jews, in the end times.

How did you get the birth of Jesus from that verse?

"8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once?....." This part is about Israel becoming a nation again in one day, May 15, 1948. The Jews having come from the nations of the world, following WWII.

And how is this referring to the current nation of Israel?

".....for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children." This part reflects the parable of the fig tree generation, which during that generation (our generation) the Jews, her children, will become believers in Jesus.

How are you getting these interpretations?

 

[Douggg]

How did you get the birth of Jesus from that verse?

By connecting it with Isaiah 9:6.

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

And how is this referring to the current nation of Israel?

Because for a nation to borne at once, in one day, and is in the news everyday, which before May 15, 1948 had not been.

How are you getting these interpretations?

From different parts of the bible. That the Jews will become Christians in the middle of the 7 years is in Revelation 12:10. Revelation 12:6 the first half of the seven years, followed by Satan being cast down to earth from the second heaven, in Revelation 12:7-9, and in Revelation 12:14 the time, times, half time remaining for Satan is the second half of the seven years.

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Negates the claim by some that the church has become Israel.

 

[Messenger 3k]

By connecting it with Isaiah 9:6.

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Read that scripture and understand the context. It's not talking about an actual child being born. It's referring to the nation of Zion, the city of believers from which Jesus reigns over earth when He returns.

Did you skip verse 8? Allow me rephrase verse 7 and 8 for your understanding.

"Who has ever heard of a woman who gives birth before going into labor? Or who has ever seen a woman who gave birth to a son before she experienced pain of child birth?"

Meaning Jerusalem would have to go through the pains of attacks and desolation by gentile nations before God's people are brought forth as Zion when Jesus returns.

A little background: understand that prior to the era of Jesus, the Jews had always seen Jerusalem as Zion which was to stand forever reigning over nations. They didn't understand God's Divine plan through Jesus so that when Jerusalem was destroyed by Babylon it set them into confusion and many started asking God questions as to why He would allow Jerusalem to be trampled by gentiles. God had to explain via visions to people like Daniel, Ezra and Baruch. Because they kept searching prophetic scriptures trying understand what was going on. They eventually understood God's divine plan on getting revelations of Jesus the messiah.

That's the context on which that scripture is based. God consoles His people letting them know that their period of mourning were just birth pains before Zion really arrives when Jesus returns.

 

[keras]

Did you skip verse 8? Allow me rephrase verse 7 and 8 for your understanding.

"Who has ever heard of a woman who gives birth before going into labor? Or who has ever seen a woman who gave birth to a son before she experienced pain of child birth?"

I too disagree with the common interpretation of that verse.
It simply cannot apply to the Jewish State of Israel, as that nation took exactly 50 years from promulgation in 1898 by T. Hertzel, to proclamation in 1948 by ben Gurion,

It will be literally fulfilled by the establishment of the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, by every faithful Christian, in all of the holy Land.
This incredible event will happen soon after all of the Middle East region is cleared and cleansed by the Lord on His Day of fiery wrath. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Zephaniah 1:14-18
That Day will be triggered by an attempt to fire nuke missiles into Israel. Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 83

 

[Messenger 3k]

That Day will be triggered by an attempt to fire nuke missiles into Israel.

So you're saying the second coming of Christ is tied to an attempt of attack on Israel?

 

[keras]

So you're saying the second coming of Christ is tied to an attempt of attack on Israel?

No.
The Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign does not happen until all the wrath of God has finished.
It will be when Iran and all the Islamic peoples go to destroy Israel, then; the Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath is unleashed. Exactly as Ezekiel 7:14 says.
The Lord does not leave heaven on that Day; Psalms 11:4-6, He will instigate an explosion of the suns surface, Isaiah 30:26, a Coronal Mass Ejection of an unprecedented magnitude, that will literally fulfil all the graphically described prophesies about that terrible, world changing Day. Zephaniah 3:8, 2 Peter 3:7

 

[Messenger 3k]

No.
The Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign does not happen until all the wrath of God has finished.
It will be when Iran and all the Islamic peoples go to destroy Israel, then; the Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath is unleashed. Exactly as Ezekiel 7:14 says.
The Lord does not leave heaven on that Day; Psalms 11:4-6, He will instigate an explosion of the suns surface, Isaiah 30:26, a Coronal Mass Ejection of an unprecedented magnitude, that will literally fulfil all the graphically described prophesies about that terrible, world changing Day. Zephaniah 3:8, 2 Peter 3:7

It is important that we understand the context of scriptures so that we can accurately dissect God's word. The Holy Spirit is always available to help us do this.

That being said, Isaiah existed around the period of the reigns of Uzziah down to Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

Isaiah 1:1,
The vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. (NIV)

Therefore, some of his prophesies concerned close future events; others concerned distant future events, and some a mixture of both.

Isaiah 30 is an example of the last category. It was mainly a prophesy concerning Judah which was soon to be invaded by the king of Assyria, Sennacherib, due to their sins. But prior to building the temple, Solomon had made an alliance with Pharoah, the king of Egypt.

1 Kings 3:1,
Solomon made an alliance with Pharaoh king of Egypt and married his daughter. He brought her to the City of David until he finished building his palace and the temple of the Lord, and the wall around Jerusalem. (NIV)

Therefore rather than seek God's forgiveness, Judah had a habit of falling back and relying on that alliance for assistance whenever God's sent enemies to attack them due to their sins. Same was about to happen at the invasion by Assyria. And Isaiah was pre-warning them in prophesy concerning that.

The prophecies:

Isaiah 30:1-2,
“Woe to the obstinate children,” declares the Lord, “to those who carry out plans that are not mine, forming an alliance, but not by my Spirit, heaping sin upon sin; who go down to Egypt without consulting me; who look for help to Pharaoh’s protection, to Egypt’s shade for refuge. (NIV)

Again, Isaiah 31:1,
Woe to those who go down to Egypt for help, who rely on horses, who trust in the multitude of their chariots and in the great strength of their horsemen, but do not look to the Holy One of Israel, or seek help from the Lord. (NIV)


The actual events:

Isaiah 36:1,
In the fourteenth year of King Hezekiah’s reign, Sennacherib king of Assyria attacked all the fortified cities of Judah and captured them.

4,
The field commander said to them, “Tell Hezekiah: “ ‘This is what the great king, the king of Assyria, says: On what are you basing this confidence of yours? You say you have counsel and might for war—but you speak only empty words. On whom are you depending, that you rebel against me? Look, I know you are depending on Egypt, that splintered reed of a staff, which pierces the hand of anyone who leans on it! Such is Pharaoh king of Egypt to all who depend on him. (NIV)

Again during the invasion by Babylon.

Jeremiah 37:6,
Then the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophet: “This is what the Lord , the God of Israel, says: Tell the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of me, ‘Pharaoh’s army, which has marched out to support you, will go back to its own land, to Egypt. Then the Babylonians will return and attack this city; they will capture it and burn it down.’ (NIV)


However, in verse 19, Isaiah 30 included a prophesy concerning the distant future; the reign of Zion when Christ returns. Wherein God consoles them in mercy for all the trouble they originally went through in form of invasions and desolation which God describes (in chapter 66) as birth pains before the actual birth of Zion.

Isaiah 30:19-21,
O people in Zion, inhabitant in Jerusalem, you will weep no longer. He will most certainly be gracious to you at the sound of your cry for help; when He hears it, He will answer you. Though the Lord gives you the bread of adversity and the water of oppression, yet your Teacher will no longer hide Himself, but your eyes will [constantly] see your Teacher. Your ears will hear a word behind you, “This is the way, walk in it,” whenever you turn to the right or to the left.

25-26,
On every lofty mountain and on every high hill there will be streams of water on the day of the great slaughter (the day of the Lord ), when the towers fall [and all His enemies are destroyed]. The light of the full moon will be like the light of the sun, and the light of the sun will be seven times brighter, like the light of seven days [concentrated in one], in the day the Lord binds up the fracture of His people and heals the wound He has inflicted [because of their sins]. (AMP)

During the one thousand years millennial reign of Christ, the moon and the sun will no longer shine with normal brighteness; they'll both shine seven times brighter. And at the end of the thousand years, there will be no need for Sun or moon; the glory of God will be light for the world.

Understand that the sun is exactly seven times brighter than the moon. So when the moon becomes as bright as the sun, the sun will remain seven times brighter by shining with the brightness of seven days combined.

That's the meaning and context of that scripture.

 

[Douggg]

Did you skip verse 8? Allow me rephrase verse 7 and 8 for your understanding.

"Who has ever heard of a woman who gives birth before going into labor? Or who has ever seen a woman who gave birth to a son before she experienced pain of child birth?"

If you read my post you would know that I didn't skip verse 8.

You changed up the meaning in the way you rephrased the text. It is a specific man child, relative to Israel. There is no way it can be referring to anyone but Jesus.

"7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child."

 

[Messenger 3k]

If you read my post you would know that I didn't skip verse 8.

You changed up the meaning in the way you rephrased the text. It is a specific man child, relative to Israel. There is no way it can be referring to anyone but Jesus.

"7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child."

You skipped verse 8 in understanding.

Plus, I changed nothing. I simply helped your understanding by putting scriptures in a context you could grasp.

Here, scriptures for itself:

Isaiah 66:7-8,

Have you ever heard of a woman who gave birth to a child before having labor pains? Who ever heard of such a thing or imagined it could happen? Can a nation be born in a day or come to life in a second? (CEV)

Again,

“A woman does not give birth before she feels the pain. A woman must feel the pain of childbirth before she can see the boy she gives birth to. Who ever heard of such a thing? In the same way, no one ever saw a new world begin in one day. No one has ever heard of a new nation that began in one day. But when Zion feels the pain, she will give birth to her children. (ERV)

 

[keras]

Understand that the sun is exactly seven times brighter than the moon. So when the moon becomes as bright as the sun, the sun will remain seven times brighter by shining with the brightness of seven days combined.

That's the meaning and context of that scripture.

That is your opinion and interpretation of that prophecy.

If the sun remained 7 times brighter and therefore; hotter, it would become a supernova and all the planets would be burned up.
This isn't what Isaiah 30:26a is saying at all; it doesn't say exactly how long this brightness will last, but it cannot be for too long as we would not survive.
Today, we know about Coronal Mass Ejections, where the sun suddenly explodes out a mass of superheated hydrogen plasma. In 1856, a CME did strike the earth and caused damage to the early telegraph system. The Carrington event.
Scientists warn us that if another Carrington event would strike today, we would lose most communications and electric systems.

But what over 100 prophesies tell us is that the Lord will send fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis, that will send the survivors back to 1800's technology. Isaiah 66:15-17
With the moon, when the hydrogen plasma strikes it, it will shine brightly red, with the thermoluminescent reaction of the Aluminum Oxide, of which lunar dust is mostly comprised. [Chew on that one, BaB]

Isaiah 30:26b, says how it will be soon after the Lord has cleared and cleansed the holy Land, He will cleanse His faithful Christian people of any wrongdoing and will bless them as they go to live in all of the holy Land.

 

[Douggg]

You skipped verse 8 in understanding.

Plus, I changed nothing. I simply helped your understanding by putting scriptures in a context you could grasp.

Here, scriptures for itself:

Isaiah 66:7-8,

Have you ever heard of a woman who gave birth to a child before having labor pains? Who ever heard of such a thing or imagined it could happen? Can a nation be born in a day or come to life in a second? (CEV)

Again,

“A woman does not give birth before she feels the pain. A woman must feel the pain of childbirth before she can see the boy she gives birth to. Who ever heard of such a thing? In the same way, no one ever saw a new world begin in one day. No one has ever heard of a new nation that began in one day. But when Zion feels the pain, she will give birth to her children. (ERV)

Messenger, those (CEV and ERV) are not word-for-word translations. They are thought-for-thought translations, which are basically interpretations themselves. You are working from inaccurate and faulty text.

The KJV is a word-for-word translation.

7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

 

[Douggg]

That is your opinion and interpretation of that prophecy.

Well, the issue is basically with the "translations" that messenger is using. You are doing to the same thing, in using the translation you are using.

 

[Douggg]

That's the meaning and context of that scripture.

Why are you jumping to the NIV and AMP in your reply to Keras, when you quoted from the CEV and ERV, regarding Isaiah 66:7-8, in your reply to me?

I went back to my original post and noted "KJV".

 

[Messenger 3k]

Messenger, those (CEV and ERV) are not word-for-word translations. They are thought-for-thought translations, which are basically interpretations themselves. You are working from inaccurate and faulty text.

The KJV is a word-for-word translation.

7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

You're in no position to tell me what version of scripture is accurate and which is faulty. I rely on the Holy Spirit for that guidance.

I not only gave you the meaning of said scriptures I gave you the context on which such scriptures were written. What do you think Prophesy is? You think it's God just jumbling up incoherent words together that make no sense? So that you're left with just picking out any of His words and applying your own meanings to them? No sir. God has a mind like you. He has a will, a thought process, expressed in His words. But how can you know the mind of God without the Holy Spirit?

1 Corinthians 2:9-11,

...The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. (NIV)

 

[Messenger 3k]

Why are you jumping to the NIV and AMP in your reply to Keras, when you quoted from the CEV and ERV, regarding Isaiah 66:7-8, in your reply to me?

Because that's how I study. I involve as much translation as needed so I'm not limited in understanding. The Holy Spirit helps me navigate through these various translations to understand the context lying within. Study scriptures for yourself and don't be in the habit of picking out any scripture and attaching your own meaning to it. This defense of 'what version I'm using' is a lazy-minded defense.

If you feel that scripture was talking about Jesus, present the context within which it was referring to Jesus.

If scripture told you "Moses climbed the mountain", wouldn't you dig deeper to understand what led to Moses climbing the mountain? Do you just take that statement and run with it in lack of understanding?

God had in mind to talk about the coming of His Son and He expressed it in only one sentence?...in all the speech He gave to Isaiah? Only one sentence? God is not limited in speech sir. His words are few where needed but He is by no means limited in speech.

Come up with a better defense than the version of scripture I'm using.

 

[Messenger 3k]

it doesn't say exactly how long this brightness will last, but it cannot be for too long as we would not survive.

And who told you we would not survive? How else are we supposed to survive the Glory of God when the thousand years are over?

Or do you not understand that no man can behold God's Glory and live? Do you not understand that this is why no man can see the Face of God? But scripture tells us that the Glory of God becomes our light at the end of age. His Glory is way brighter than any sun or moon combined in multiple folds. How do you suppose we would survive that?

Here's how. Because by then would have been changed to immortal beings; to the likeness of angels. So that just as angels can bear God's Glory in the seventh heaven, we too can bear God's Glory. In that same way we would be able to bear the sun's increased brightness so that it would merely be light for us but torture to unbelievers.

Today, we know about Coronal Mass Ejections, where the sun suddenly explodes out a mass of superheated hydrogen plasma. In 1856, a CME did strike the earth and caused damage to the early telegraph system. The Carrington event.
Scientists warn us that if another Carrington event would strike today, we would lose most communications and electric systems

That's the source of your error. You rely too much on science. I rely on scriptures with my God given senses. Sorry, but I'm not concerned with what science says because the same science is working hard in the bidding of the devil to exclude God from everything; with its misleading ideas like the 'big bang' and evolution.

Scripture tells me I was made in the express image of God, science tells me I came from apes. Who should I believe? I choose to believe scripture, unapologetically, if I may add.

 

[Douggg]

You're in no position to tell me what version of scripture is accurate and which is faulty.

Based on the content of your posts, I think I am. Here's what i think your methodology is:

You read Isaiah 66:7-9. You are not able to understand what is being said. So you go to the modern english thought-for-thought translations, and pick an interpretation that has been made the "translators" of those, that seems good to you. Then you made a post parroting those - passing it off as the Holy Spirit guiding you and presenting yourself as authoritative on such matters.

I not only gave you the meaning of said scriptures I gave you the context on which such scriptures were written.

You are parroting. You switch around translations in order find one that supports your position or a translation (interpretation) that you like. Sometimes, according to the posts of yours I researched, you might use the KJV, then maybe the NIV, then on the Isaiah 66:7-9 passage the CEV and ERV.

Because that's how I study. I involve as much translation as needed so I'm not limited in understanding. The Holy Spirit helps me navigate through these various translations to understand the context lying within. Study scriptures for yourself and don't be in the habit of picking out any scripture and attaching your own meaning to it. This defense of 'what version I'm using' is a lazy-minded defense.

No that is not the reason. The reason is if you stuck to one translation, you find that it conflicts with some of your other views, so you switch around.

If you feel that scripture was talking about Jesus, present the context within which it was referring to Jesus.

I have already done that in my opening post, and by a reply I made to a post by you, asking the same thing.

Come up with a better defense than the version of scripture I'm using.

I use the KJV consistently as a reliable translation compared to the thought-for-thought versions which you use. For better results, I would suggest that you do the same.




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[Messenger 3k]

Based on the content of your posts, I think I am.

No, you're not. Sorry. There's no law restricting me to using the KJV version only.

You really have no case here.

You have nothing concrete to back up your errorneous idea so you've diverted to the version of scripture I'm using.

No that is not the reason. The reason is if you stuck to one translation, you find that it conflicts with some of your other views, so you switch around.

This is funny. Again, you're not going to tell me how I choose to study. You picked out a scripture and gave it a meaning you hoped it had then I showed up and disappointed you.

You have to understand that you must expect this from time to time so you don't go freely misleading people on here. Some days I'll let falsities slide, other days I will not.

When it comes to historical studies, I mostly rely on the KJV because I understand how accurate it is in such cases. But don't be ignorant, the KJV is written in old English. You don't naturally converse in old English. So you don't understand old English. I don't see you typing, "why doest thou use CEV and not KJV? knowest thou not that KJV is most accurate?"

However, when it comes to issues where revelation is crucial, (which technically, is always) I do not not limit myself to the KJV. Therefore I have no hesitation in admitting that I do not fully understand KJV's old English, no one really does. Why make things difficult for yourself? This is like expecting me to understand a language I don't speak.

Again, you have no case here. Come up with something better, like showing me you have some understanding of the scriptures you put up.

 

[Douggg]

No, you're not. Sorry. There's no law restricting me to using the KJV version only.

You are getting mixed up on what you wrote. You wrote:

"You're in no position to tell me what version of scripture is accurate and which is faulty."

That was what I was responding to. I didn't dictate that you use the KJV. Then I wrote...

"I use the KJV consistently as a reliable translation compared to the thought-for-thought versions which you use. For better results, I would suggest that you do the same."

I didn't order you to use the KJV. I suggested it.

Messenger, I read through many of your 112 posts covering your short time here. And I noted a trend of being too combative, and wanting to assert yourself as the authority that other posters have to be subservant.

I can say for certain that God is not going to reveal anything to someone who displays that sort of attitude, so that they can lord it over others.

Again, you have no case here. Come up with something better, like showing me you have some understanding of the scriptures you put up.

This is what I am talking about. You are being condescending and posturing.