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Isaiah 53: A Contextual Discussion

LittleLambofJesus

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Isaiah 65:17 For, lo, I am Creating new heavens, and a new land, And the former things are not remembered...
I think we have to remember the historical context of Isaiah 65. Isaiah 65 [3rd Isaiah] was written in Israel shortly after the end of the exile and they show a sense of frustration or dissatisfaction with the restoration. 3rd Isaiah is trying to persuade the Judeans that the God of Israel is still commanding and still loyal to them. 3rd Isaiah looks forward to the dawn of a new era, a new Israel.
Do you mean the country that is called by that name today?

Psalem 76:2 And His tabernacle/den/05520 [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] is in Salem, And His habitation in Zion.

Hierousalem (Strong's 2419) occurs 83 times in 80 verses:
ierousalhm <2419>,

Matthew 24:1 And coming-out, the Jesus, went from the Temple/ierou <2411>, and his disciples toward-come to show him the house-build of the temple,

Hebrews 7:1 For this the Melchisedek/melcisedek <3198> , king of Salem/salhm <4532>, priest/iereuV of the God of the Most High/uyistou <5310>, the together-joining Abraham turning-back from the smiting of the kings, and did bless him,
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I think we understand why my admonition will not be accepted.
I think we should write a counter-missionary book together, brother.
:D
We are trying to get an explanation from the Muslims on why they view the Messenger in Malachi 3 as Muahammed. :)

http://foru.ms/t2836755&page=11

Question for jews muslims on Malachi
Question. Is this the NC spoken of in Jeremiah 31and is this a literal Temple He is coming to?

(Young) Malachi 3:1 Lo, I am sending My messenger, And he hath prepared a way before Me, And suddenly come in unto his temple Doth the Lord whom ye are seeking, Even the Messenger [MUHAMMED says some Muslims] of The Covenant, Whom ye are desiring, Lo, he is coming, said Jehovah of Hosts.
 
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anatolian

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:D
We are trying to get an explanation from the Muslims on why they view the Messenger in Malachi 3 as Muahammed. :)

http://foru.ms/t2836755&page=11

Question for jews muslims on Malachi
Question. Is this the NC spoken of in Jeremiah 31and is this a literal Temple He is coming to?

(Young) Malachi 3:1 Lo, I am sending My messenger, And he hath prepared a way before Me, And suddenly come in unto his temple Doth the Lord whom ye are seeking, Even the Messenger [MUHAMMED says some Muslims] of The Covenant, Whom ye are desiring, Lo, he is coming, said Jehovah of Hosts.
I have a question, why do you still use the mistranslated version of that verse? although you usually talk about Biblical translation mistakes...

"even" or "and" between the Lord/Adon and the Messenger of the Covenant?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I have a question, why do you still use the mistranslated version of that verse? although you usually talk about Biblical translation mistakes...

"even" or "and" between the Lord/Adon and the Messenger of the Covenant?
Oops sorry. That was an old translation.
Are you saying YHWH is not talking to the same group of people here? Just curious.

Malachi 3:1Behold Me! To-send messenger-of-Me and he surfaces way before me and suddenly he shall come to temple of him, the lord, whom you ones-seeking and-messenger of the covenant, whom you ones-delighting behold he comes!!!
 
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J

JoeWill

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I implore you to take the time, because you're dead wrong on how you view Judaism and the Jewish Bible.

I genuinely thank you for your thoughts and contributions to this thread, Peep and Muffler.

However, with regard to my need to study Judaism, I think that unbiased readers of our dialogue will have seen that my arguments hold together well. Meanwhile, what has been described as the "foundation" that you recommend, has begun to look rather insecure.


To take just a few objective examples:

1) You argued against my point that the Jewish writings preserve in places, a messianic interpretation of Isaiah chapter 53.

But the American rabbi and Professor of Judaism, Dan Cohn-Sherbok, notes that the early rabbis speculated the coming of a messianic figure - the "Messiah the son of Joseph". Another rabbi and professor, Raphael Patai, adds that the concept of this Messiah was probably a development of the Suffering Servant prophecies of Isaiah 53.

So it does seem likely that some of the Messianic interpretations of Isaiah 53 that appear in the Midrash and other writings, preserve that early belief.


2) It was argued that the Isaiah 53 passage cannot be depicting the voluntary sacrifice of a man, because the Old Testament prohibited human sacrifices. On close inspection, all of the verses cited only refer to the involuntary sacrifices of children - so that argument fails.


3) It was argued that if that nation of Israel is called God's servant in some passages of the Old Testament, then the title "servant" must always denote the nation of Israel. Period.

In fact there are many counter-examples in scripture to this supposed "rule". For instance at one point Isaiah calls some people the "rulers of Sodom". Is he really addressing the rulers of Sodom? No. He is speaking to the rulers of Israel who were acting like those men of Sodom did (Isaiah 1:10). Ezekiel speaks of God's servant "David" shepherding the people. Is he really talking about King David? No. He is talking about a ruler like David who would come from David's line (Ezekiel 34:23, cf. Jeremiah 23:5). And so on...


The onus is on you to explain why I would want to adopt a "foundation" that gives wrong answers like these. I have my own foundation as one who has studied the Bible for years and who has a first class degree in religion.

The history of the Biblical nation of Israel, is the history of these people closing their ears to God's messages and then paying a heavy price for it. The forty years of wandering in the wilderness, plus the Assyrian and Babylonian diasporas are classic examples of this. I'm sorry, but I feel that the same spiritual blindness is evident in the "foundation" that we have been hearing about on this thread.

For those who would like a better foundation that leads to eternal life, I resubmit the following:



A Christian interpretation of some of the prophecies in Isaiah 53 and related passages:


1) The Messiah would have a human birth

Isaiah 49:5 reads: &#8220;And now, the Lord, Who formed me from the womb as a servant to Him...&#8221;

Fulfilment in Jesus: His being born of a woman. Jesus was formed and called from the womb to serve a purpose, in a similar way as described of the prophet Jeremiah (Jeremiah 1:5).



2) The Messiah would be rejected by the Jewish nation of his day

Isaiah 53:3 reads: &#8220;Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.&#8221;

Fulfilment in Jesus: Jesus was not accepted as the Messiah by the nation of Israel.



3) The Messiah would face a judgement

Isaiah 53: reads: &#8220;From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell?&#8221;

Fulfilment in Jesus: The Roman historian, Tacitus (56 &#8211; c. 120 AD), confirms the record of the New Testament that Jesus was judged by Pontius Pilate and executed by his sentence..



4)The Messiah would be killed

Isaiah 53:9 reads: &#8220;For he was cut off from the land of the living...&#8221;

Fulfilment in Jesus: That Jesus was crucified is not just a Christian belief but an accepted historical fact. In addition to Tacitus&#8217; account of the crucifixion, Christian ossuaries (bone boxes) inscribed with the symbol of the cross have been discovered dating to around 50AD.



5)The Messiah would be wounded and pierced

Isaiah 53:5 reads: &#8220;But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.&#8221;

Fulfilment in Jesus: The Hebrew word mecholal translated as &#8220;pained&#8221; in this translation, can mean &#8220;wounded&#8221; and &#8220;pieced&#8221; from the root word chalal &#8211; &#8220;to pierce&#8221;. Jesus was both wounded and pierced when nails were driven through his hands and feet to secure him to the cross. Interestingly, the bones of a 1st century AD victim of crucifixion called Yehochanan, have been found with a large iron nail still fixed through one of the heel bones.



6) The Messiah would be disfigured in his death

Isaiah 52:14 reads: &#8220;As many wondered about you, &#8216;How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!&#8217;&#8221;

Fulfilment in Jesus: Roman crucifixions were preceded by flagellation, whereupon the victim was struck many times with a special kind of whip made of multiple stands. Each strand was impregnated with pieces of metal or bone designed to lacerate and tear pieces of flesh from the body. Jesus&#8217; appearance really would have been marred beyond that of any ordinary man.



7) The death of the Messiah would be thought of as judgement by God

Isaiah 53:4 reads: &#8220;Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.&#8221;

Fulfilment in Jesus: The Jewish nation used to hang on trees, the bodies of idolaters and blasphemers whom they had stoned to death. This was to show that these offenders were under God&#8217;s curse (cf. Deuteronomy 21:23). When crucifixion was introduced to Israel, the same reasoning was applied to one who had been crucified.



8) The Messiah would be counted as a "transgressor"

Isaiah 53:12 reads: &#8220;&#8230;he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.&#8221;

Fulfilment in Jesus: crucifixion was a form of execution that the Romans reserved for criminals and non-Romans. Thus, Jesus died a criminal&#8217;s death. Also, the Gospel writers record that Jesus was crucified between two thieves, which would mean that Jesus was counted with the transgressors in an additional way. This Gospel record cannot be easily dismissed as Jesus&#8217; crucifixion would have been witnessed by large numbers of people, who would have been able to contradict what was being said if the authors had invented this detail.



9) The Messiah would rise after his death

Isaiah 53:11 reads: &#8220;From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied&#8230;&#8221;

Isaiah 52:13 reads: &#8220;Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.&#8221;

Fulfilment in Jesus: There are nine separate eyewitness accounts of Jesus&#8217; resurrection in the Bible. Sure, these have come under attack from sceptics but they are not so easy to dismiss. The followers of Jesus put their lives on the line to uphold their accounts, which is the not the actions of men who might have making the whole thing up.



10) The Messiah would become a light to the nations

Isaiah 49:6 reads: &#8220;And He said, &#8216;It is too light for you to be My servant, to establish the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the besieged of Israel, but I will make you a light of nations, so that My salvation shall be until the end of the earth.&#8217;&#8221;

Fulfilment in Jesus: Jesus can certainly be argued to be a light to the nations. Around 2 billion around the world today believe in him, and the words of Jesus are read more and translated more than any other literature. His mission to Jacob had a partial fulfilment with his first coming, when many of the first converts to Christianity were Jews; it will have a complete fulfilment when he returns as the &#8220;Messiah ben David&#8221;.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by muffler dragon
I implore you to take the time, because you're dead wrong on how you view Judaism and the Jewish Bible.
Shalom mf.
Well you have to remember, both Christ-ianity and Islam believe JESUS was the Messiah promised to Israel/Judah but it should not diminish YHWH's plan for not only Israel/Judah, but the whole world.
Thanks for your input. Peace.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Isaiah 53:7 He-is-oppressed/exacted. And-he one-being-humbled, and-not he-is-opening mouth-of-him.
As-flockling to-slaughter he-is-fetched. And-as-ewe before/faces ones-shearing-her. She is mute. And-not he-is-opening mouth-of-him. [Acts 53:7]

Acts 8:32 The yet contexts of the Scripture which He read was this: `As a-sheep/probaton<4263> onto slaughter/sfaghn <4967> he was led; and as a-Lamb/amnoV <286> before of the one shearing Him, soundless, thus not opening the mouth of Him; [Isaiah 53:7]
Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
:D
We are trying to get an explanation from the Muslims on why they view the Messenger in Malachi 3 as Muahammed. :)

http://foru.ms/t2836755&page=11

Question for jews muslims on Malachi
Question. Is this the NC spoken of in Jeremiah 31and is this a literal Temple He is coming to?

Malachi 3:1Behold Me! To-send messenger-of-Me and he surfaces way before me and suddenly he shall come to temple of him, the lord, whom you ones-seeking and-messenger of the covenant, whom you ones-delighting behold he comes!!!

 
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LittleLambofJesus

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1. Israel is described as God's servant (Isa 41:8, etc.) who is afflicted and oppressed in Isaiah 49:13, 51:21, 54:11-15, and 60:14-15.

2. Israel is described as being led like sheep to slaughter in Psalm 44:23.

Psalm 44
23. For it is for Your sake that we are killed all the time, [that] we are considered as sheep for the slaughter

3. Israel is promised future exaltation with seed and long life in Isaiah 60, 61, 65, etc.

These are just some examples to show how the servant of Isaiah 53 can be shown with scriptural evidence to be Israel. Israel is explicitly identified in the above passages as bearing the very same characteristics of the servant of Isaiah 53.
Very interesting so far MD and thanks. :wave:
 
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Carey

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I believe many parts of the bible have dual meaning or " context" when talking about the Abrahamic Covenant and the Messiah.

Only a fool cold not see the obvious fulfillment of of prophecies when it comes to that little peace of real estate called Israel today.

But the ones who try to ignore it and replace the " context" to mean Yeshua instaed of the land have such a fun way of applying plainly stated things to a metaphoric thing.

Their arguement does make a little sense. So I think God purposely let the scriptures to be written in this way so even people who have hate in their heart for Gods chosen people can still believe and be saved.

But what do I know??:holy:
 
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muffler dragon

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The second death.

So...

IF one finds no substantiation for the second death in their Scriptures, and

IF one doesn't believe in the second death;

Then there wouldn't be much reason for G-d to leave something like that as a weight to consider when interpreting things, correct?
 
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Carey

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So...

IF one finds no substantiation for the second death in their Scriptures, and

IF one doesn't believe in the second death;

Then there wouldn't be much reason for G-d to leave something like that as a weight to consider when interpreting things, correct?

Correct so one must first expose the evil in their scritpures so they can open their minds to the truth in Gods scriptures so they can avoid the second death.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Any more interest on Isaiah 53? Shalom

Isaiah 53:7 He-is-oppressed/exacted. And-he one-being-humbled, and-not he-is-opening mouth-of-him.
As-flockling to-slaughter he-is-fetched. And-as-ewe before/faces ones-shearing-her. She is mute. And-not he-is-opening mouth-of-him. [Acts 53:7]

Not really sure about the greek word used for "sheep" here.

Acts 8:32 The yet contexts of the Scripture which He read was this: `As a-sheep/probaton<4263> onto slaughter/sfaghn <4967> he was led; and as a-Lamb/amnoV <286> before of the one shearing Him, soundless, thus not opening the mouth of Him; [Isaiah 53:7]
 
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GeratTzedek

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I had written this some time ago, and I'll let it be part of the OP again:

As we look at the book of Isaiah, we should first make mention of the fact that the division of the Bible into chapters and verses is only for finding; not for determining theology.

I bring this to attention, because of the continuity that we find within the book of Isaiah.

I would like to present the following verses to form a foundation.

Isaiah 41
8. But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me, 9. Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth, and from its nobles I called you, and I said to you, "You are My servant"; I chose you and I did not despise you.

Isaiah 42
19. Who is blind but My servant, and deaf as My messenger whom I will send? He who was blind is as the one who received his payment, and he who was blind is as the servant of the Lord.
20. There is much to see but you do not observe, to open the ears but no one listens.

Isaiah 43
10. "You are My witnesses," says the Lord, "and My servant whom I chose," in order that you know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me no god was formed and after Me none shall be.

Isaiah 44
1. And now, hearken, Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen. 2. So said HaShem your Maker, and He Who formed you from the womb shall aid you. Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen.

Isaiah 44
21. "Remember these things, O Jacob, for you are my servant, O Israel. I have made you, you are my servant; O Israel, I will not forget you.

Isaiah 45
4. For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you by your name; I surnamed you, yet you have not known Me.

Isaiah 49
3. And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."

Isaiah 49
7. This is what HaShem says- the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel- to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation, to the servant of rulers: "Kings will see you and rise up, princes will see and bow down, because of HaShem , who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you."

This is even consistent outside of Isaiah.

Jeremiah 30
10. And you, fear not, My servant Jacob, says the Lord, and do not be dismayed, O Israel, for behold I save you from afar and your seed from the land of their captivity, and Jacob shall again be silent and at ease, and no one will frighten them.
11. For I am with you, says the Lord, to save you, for I will make an end of all the nations where I dispersed you, but of you I will not make an end, but I will chasten you in measure, and I will not completely destroy you.
12. For so said the Lord: Your injury is painful, your wound grievous.
13. No one deems your wound to be healed, you have no healing medicines.
14. All your lovers have forgotten you, they do not seek you, for I have smitten you with the wound of an enemy, cruel chastisement, for the greatness of your iniquity; your sins are many.
15. Why do you cry about your injury [that] your pain is severe? For the magnitude of your iniquity, [since] your sins are many, I have done these to you.
16. Therefore, all who devour you shall be devoured, and all your adversaries, yea all of them, shall go into captivity, and those who plunder you shall be plunder, and all who prey upon you I will give for prey.
17. For I will bring healing to you, and of your wounds I will heal you, says the Lord, for they called you an outcast, that is Zion whom no one seeks out.

And now, we come to the text of debate:

Isaiah 52:13-53:12
13. Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.
14. As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"
15. So shall he cast down many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.
1. Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?
2. And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?
3. Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.
4. Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.
5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.
6. We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.
7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.
8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.
9. And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
10. And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
11. From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.
12. Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.

So, we see from nine occasions outside of Isaiah 52-53 that Israel/Jacob is referred to as the "Servant". This is the context of the passage that proceeds. Does it not stand to reason that all situations are synonymous? The similarities, not only in grammar, but also in detail are very interesting between the Jeremiah passage and the Isaiah passage.
Another key note of interest in this entire passage, and all that have been expressed is that there is a complete absence of "Messiah". There is no inference; nor overt statement regarding these passages as being Messianic.

The following conclusions can be made from what has been expressed above:

1) Contextually, the "Servant" is Israel/Jacob.
2) These passages are not Messianic.

The following is provided by an acquaintance of mine the delves into the surrounding context as well:



This opens up the surrounding context of Isaiah 53. After this topic has been exhausted, we can discuss the internal context.
This was well done, muffler.
 
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GeratTzedek

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So I think God purposely let the scriptures to be written in this way so even people who have hate in their heart for Gods chosen people can still believe and be saved.
What part of "I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you" is so hard to understand????
 
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GeratTzedek

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Joe, the whole point of this thread, as per the direct context which muffler so adequately provided, is that the suffering servant passage is NOT Messianic. It is about ISRAEL. Israel is the servant being described. Therefore using these verses as proof texts that the messiah will this and the messiah will that just simply doesn't hold water.
 
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anatolian

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Little Lamb, Islam does NOT believe that Jesus was the messiah. They believe he was a prophet. That's not the same thing.
No, Islam teaches that Isa son of Maryam/Jesus of the christianity was the Messiah but our Messiah understanting is different than yours and of christianity.
 
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