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Isaiah 53: A Contextual Discussion

Apr 24, 2010
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The Talmud (you know, that book you like to quote out of context) states that the rabbis only translated the Torah, and then they used some specific methods that do not appear in the copy of the Septuagint that we know.

So... do you agree with the Talmud or the HELLENIZED accounts of the creation of the Septuagint?

Quote where the Talmud declares this to start things off.

Secondly, in this situation, there were 70 Hebrew scholars in this case. That bears significance. Most of the early church fathers that we have been speaking of can not speak Hebrew.

Thirdly, Dr. Michael Brown is also an ANE literature scholar. He defines what the Tanakh is here - What is the Tanakh?-.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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The Talmud (you know, that book you like to quote out of context) states that the rabbis only translated the Torah, and then they used some specific methods that do not appear in the copy of the Septuagint that we know.

So... do you agree with the Talmud or the HELLENIZED accounts of the creation of the Septuagint?
Shalom
I suppose I am one that looks at the Jewish Talmud no differently than I do the Muslim's Quran......But...that is just me. :wave:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud

The Talmud (Hebrew: תַּלְמוּד talmūd "instruction, learning", from a root lmd "teach, study") is a central text of mainstream Judaism, in the form of a record of rabbinic discussions pertaining to Jewish law, ethics, philosophy, customs and history.
 
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b&wpac4

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Quote where the Talmud declares this to start things off.

Secondly, in this situation, there were 70 Hebrew scholars in this case. That bears significance. Most of the early church fathers that we have been speaking of can not speak Hebrew.

Thirdly, Dr. Michael Brown is also an ANE literature scholar. He defines what the Tanakh is here - What is the Tanakh?-.

‘R. Judah said: When our teachers permitted Greek, they permitted it only for a scroll of the Torah’.[SIZE=-1]1[/SIZE] This was on account of the incident related in connection with King Ptolemy,[SIZE=-1]2[/SIZE] as it has been taught: ‘It is related of King Ptolemy that he brought together seventy-two elders and placed them in seventy-two [separate] rooms, without telling them why he had brought them together, and he went in to each one of them and said to him, Translate[SIZE=-1]3[/SIZE] for me the Torah of Moses your master.[SIZE=-1]4[/SIZE] G-d then prompted each one of them and they all conceived the same idea and wrote for him, G-d created in the beginning,[SIZE=-1]5[/SIZE] I shall make man in image and likeness,[SIZE=-1]6[/SIZE] And he finished on the sixth day,and rested on the seventh day,[SIZE=-1]7[/SIZE] Male and female he created him [SIZE=-1]8[/SIZE] [but they did not write ‘created them’],[SIZE=-1]9[/SIZE] Come let me descend and confound their tongues,[SIZE=-1]10[/SIZE] And Sarah laughed among her relatives;[SIZE=-1]11[/SIZE] For in their anger they slew an ox and in their wrath they digged up a stall;[SIZE=-1]12[/SIZE] And Moses took his wife and his children, and made them ride on a carrier of men;[SIZE=-1]13[/SIZE]And the abode of the children of Israel which they stayed in Egypt and in other lands was four hundred years,[SIZE=-1]14[/SIZE] And he sent the elect of the children of Israel;[SIZE=-1]15[/SIZE] And against the elect of the children of Israel he put not forth his and;
 
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Apr 24, 2010
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‘R. Judah said: When our teachers permitted Greek, they permitted it only for a scroll of the Torah’.[SIZE=-1]1[/SIZE] This was on account of the incident related in connection with King Ptolemy,[SIZE=-1]2[/SIZE] as it has been taught: ‘It is related of King Ptolemy that he brought together seventy-two elders and placed them in seventy-two [separate] rooms, without telling them why he had brought them together, and he went in to each one of them and said to him, Translate[SIZE=-1]3[/SIZE] for me the Torah of Moses your master.[SIZE=-1]4[/SIZE] G-d then prompted each one of them and they all conceived the same idea and wrote for him, G-d created in the beginning,[SIZE=-1]5[/SIZE] I shall make man in image and likeness,[SIZE=-1]6[/SIZE] And he finished on the sixth day,and rested on the seventh day,[SIZE=-1]7[/SIZE] Male and female he created him [SIZE=-1]8[/SIZE] [but they did not write ‘created them’],[SIZE=-1]9[/SIZE] Come let me descend and confound their tongues,[SIZE=-1]10[/SIZE] And Sarah laughed among her relatives;[SIZE=-1]11[/SIZE] For in their anger they slew an ox and in their wrath they digged up a stall;[SIZE=-1]12[/SIZE] And Moses took his wife and his children, and made them ride on a carrier of men;[SIZE=-1]13[/SIZE]And the abode of the children of Israel which they stayed in Egypt and in other lands was four hundred years,[SIZE=-1]14[/SIZE] And he sent the elect of the children of Israel;[SIZE=-1]15[/SIZE] And against the elect of the children of Israel he put not forth his and;

Now you are willing to take the word of one rabbi? What about when we were discussing the Messianic age and there were two that agreed with my position?

While I personally don't have too much of a problem accepting this part of the Talmud as true (I disagree, but since in its context, Almah can still refer to a virgin, and does according to ANE scholar Dr. Michael Brown).

Remember also the criteria for Immanuel in Isaiah 7:14 is also fulfilled by the angel coming down from heaven in Matthew.
 
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b&wpac4

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Remember also the criteria for Immanuel in Isaiah 7:14 is also fulfilled by the angel coming down from heaven in Matthew.

I don't care if 7:14 states virgin or not. The sign was for Ahaz, and had to do with his enemies being gone. Virgin or town prostitute, the sign was the child that would be born shortly not the woman.
 
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Apr 24, 2010
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I don't care if 7:14 states virgin or not. The sign was for Ahaz, and had to do with his enemies being gone. Virgin or town prostitute, the sign was the child that would be born shortly not the woman.

Ahaz was never called Immanuel.

14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you [a] a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and [b] will call him Immanuel. [c]
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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*snip*

Now you are willing to take the word of one rabbi?
Call no man "rabbi" :)

Matthew 23:7 and the salutations in the market-places, and to be called by men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 Yet ye no may be being called Rabbi/rabbi <4461>, for one is of ye the teacher/leader, *the Christ*, yet all ye brethren are

Strong's Number G4461 matches the Greek &#8165;&#945;&#946;&#946;&#8055; (rhabbi), which occurs 17 times in 15 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

4461. rhabbi hrab-bee' of Hebrew origin (7227 with pronominal suffix); my master, i.e Rabbi, as an official title of honor:--Master, Rabbi.
 
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b&wpac4

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Ahaz was never called Immanuel.

14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you [a] a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and [b] will call him Immanuel. [c]

Who said Ahaz would be called Immanuel?

Keep quoting the prophecy.
 
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b&wpac4

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The context is only about giving a sign to Ahaz. But its done so, once again, in a prophetic manner (and prophecies, as we should both know, always infer the future).

Yes, it wouldn't be much of a prophecy were it about the past.

So, Ahaz will be given a sign, that a young woman or virgin will have a child and...?
 
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Apr 24, 2010
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Who said Ahaz would be called Immanuel?

Keep quoting the prophecy.

Sure. Isaiah refers this to "Then Isaiah said, "Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God also?"

Wait, house of David. But that means it has to come through the house of David and need not refer to Ahaz. So it can refer to anything in the future.
 
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Yes, it wouldn't be much of a prophecy were it about the past.

So, Ahaz will be given a sign, that a young woman or virgin will have a child and...?

Again, not Ahaz. The house of David..specifically referring to this branch within Israel. Why is Isaiah talking about having patience with God?
 
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b&wpac4

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Sure. Isaiah refers this to "Then Isaiah said, "Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God also?"

Wait, house of David. But that means it has to come through the house of David and need not refer to Ahaz. So it can refer to anything in the future.

Ahaz is of the house of David. He said he didn't need a sign, trying the patience of God. But still, continue....
 
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b&wpac4

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Well, what will happen to Israel's enemies in the future is they will be destroyed, by the role of Mashiach ben David.

So, how does that help king Ahaz with his problem? The one Isaiah is coming to consult him about. With two kingdoms threatening to attack Jerusalem.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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Again, not Ahaz. The house of David..specifically referring to this branch within Israel. Why is Isaiah talking about having patience with God?
Don't forget Jeroboam :)

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev46.htm
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev46.htm
*snip*

1 Kings 16:31 And it come to pass, as though it had been too light a thing that to go of him in sins of Yarob`am son of N@bat and he is taking a woman/wife 'Iyzebel, daughter of 'Ethba`al, king of Tsiydoniy and he is going and serving the Ba`al, and is worhipping/bowing to him
[Reve 2:20]

Reve 2:20 But I am having against of thee *few.
That thou suffer the woman/wife Jezebel, the one saying herself Prophetess and she is teaching and deceiving My bond-servants to prostitue and to be eating idol-sacrifices.
[1 King 16:31/Reve 18:7]
 
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