Isaiah 51:4

[Heber Book List]

No, the sages had nothing of truth in mind when they contradicted and opposed God's Word. Thus their commentaries are proven not to be true, rather to be deceptive.


@chunkofcoal , the things you are trusting are deceiving you entirely.
Never trust a commentary as you do, when it deceives and when it obviously contradicts God's Word and God's Plan and God's Purpose in Jesus.

I inserted a question mark re the sages, questioning his view (it was not a factual statement), after I had pointed out quite clearly that there is nothing in Torah to support his views.

 

[Shimshon]

This concerns ONLY the priesthood; specifically, the fact that YHWH made Yeshua high priest even though he is not of Aaron's lineage. How? Via the oath He made in Psalm 110:4. In other words, Torah was changed via that oath to allow Yeshua to minister as High Priest.

there is made of necessity a change also of the law

So we agree, the law was changed? Not the same a given on the mountain?

Doesn't the promise to bless Abraham's descendants with Yeshua have nothing to do with the law? Hebrews 6:17, Romans 4:13 And, doesn't the oath came after the law? Hebrews 7:28

There will no longer be a need for the ark of the covenant to house an external law.

Not 'the same as', right? How do you assume Jeremiah 31 is 'the same as' when you understand these 'changes', a stated by Jeremiah?

 

[gadar perets]

So we agree, the law was changed? Not the same a given on the mountain?

Yes, one law has changed. All others remain the same.

Doesn't the promise to bless Abraham's descendants with Yeshua have nothing to do with the law? Hebrews 6:17, Romans 4:13 And, doesn't the oath came after the law? Hebrews 7:28

Yes. So what is your point?

Not 'the same as', right? How do you assume Jeremiah 31 is 'the same as' when you understand these 'changes', a stated by Jeremiah?

It is the exact same Torah, except for one commandment being changed. That can hardly be the "new Torah" being addressed in the OP.

 

[Meowzltov]

Yes, one law has changed. All others remain the same.

Not one brushstroke until heaven and earth have passed away.

 

[gadar perets]

Not one brushstroke until heaven and earth have passed away.

The oath was already made and Torah changed before Yeshua uttered those words.

 

[Heber Book List]

The Law remains to its fullest extent, as it ever did and can never change but, G_d in his infinite wisdom, has prorogued ONLY that part of it that relates to the sacrificial system. It hasn't gone, he hasn't told us he has removed it from the Covenant, it is still there and can be activated at G_d's will, as and when he will so decide. He would not have to issue a whole new covenant, just to remove that suspension.

The alternative means that G_d has broken his word and, should he want to re-instate the sacrificial system, and all its related laws, he would have to make a whole new Covenant to do so; this I do not believe, he is not like us that he should lie. This is partly why I disagree with the Christian concept of a New Covenant - there hasn't been one, yet. Yes, parts of scripture speak of a new covenant, but we must wait for G_d to make that Covenant in the future, and see what it contains, however he decides to do it, whether by a 3rd Temple as in Jeremiah, or as in Hebrews or as hinted at in 1 Cor. 13 etc etc.

 

[chunkofcoal]

My Tanach refers back to Isaiah 2:2-3 Which says he will instruct us that we may walk in his ways. Obviously G_d will teach us the pure Law, not as seen through man's dirty / dark glass or mirror, as Paul comments in 1 Cor. 13. Tanach goes on to say in vs 3 that instruction (Law / Torah) will come forth from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem (not 'a' word, but 'the' word - definite article). He will then judge Jerusalem etc etc. I see nothing about any sort of New Law, other than in the sense that Yeshua taught G_d's law, not man's perversion of it; maybe this is what the sages had in mind?

I don't read Hebrew so maybe someone who does could help, but why would it be written "instruction (Law/Torah) will come forth from Zion" and "for Torah shall proceed from me" if everything has already been given?

HBL wrote:"I see nothing about any sort of New Law, other than in the sense that Yeshua taught G_d's law, not man's perversion of it; maybe this is what the sages had in mind?"
Like the one of the quotes I posted states:"Moshiach will teach Torah on a profoundly deep level that we have never been able to see or grasp before" Aren't they saying that there is more to the Torah to learn? And they are anticipating learning?

And Yeshua said:
And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old. And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
(Luk 5:36-39)

 

[chunkofcoal]

No, the sages had nothing of truth in mind when they contradicted and opposed God's Word. Thus their commentaries are proven not to be true, rather to be deceptive.


@chunkofcoal , the things you are trusting are deceiving you entirely.
Never trust a commentary as you do, when it deceives and when it obviously contradicts God's Word and God's Plan and God's Purpose in Jesus.

Mar 12:28-34 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? (29) And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: (30) And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. (31) And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. (32) And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: (33) And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. (34) And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

 

[chunkofcoal]

Yes, in depth.
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/torah-of-the-spirit.8048169/

Romans 7:4-6

Thank you, Shimshon

 

[Heber Book List]

I don't read Hebrew so maybe someone who does could help, but why would it be written "instruction (Law/Torah) will come forth from Zion" and "for Torah shall proceed from me" if everything has already been given?

HBL wrote:"I see nothing about any sort of New Law, other than in the sense that Yeshua taught G_d's law, not man's perversion of it; maybe this is what the sages had in mind?"
Like the one of the quotes I posted states:"Moshiach will teach Torah on a profoundly deep level that we have never been able to see or grasp before" Aren't they saying that there is more to the Torah to learn? And they are anticipating learning?

And Yeshua said:
And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old. And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
(Luk 5:36-39)

Errrm, because it was a prophecy, and the nations need to hear the Law of G_d.

I don't understand your point in Luke

PS I think you need to buy yourself a Tanakh, since you have text that is not in the Tanakh. No wonder you are stumbling at this.

 

[chunkofcoal]

I have a couple versions of the Tanakh, thank you. And there are plenty to find online if I want to compare. So you are saying the following verse from the KJV is wrong?
Isa 51:4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.

 

[Heber Book List]

I have a couple versions of the Tanakh, thank you. And there are plenty to find online if I want to compare. So you are saying the following verse from the KJV is wrong?
Isa 51:4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.

That was the OP text, on which this thread is based, and why some have questioned it, because the 'a' is not there. Also questioned is the use of the term a new law or new covenant. We have addressed these issues with you . So, in answer to your question above, yes.

 

[chunkofcoal]

That was not the OP text, on which this thread is based, and why some have questioned it.

I asked if anyone agreed with the interpretation that I quoted from the Jewish site; you obviously don't, so that's fine by me.

 

[Heber Book List]

The quotes in the OP were from a Jewish site as I stated. My words are in green here-
"According to what I've read, this means God will reveal a new Torah through Moshiach -"One of the central prophecies of the Final Redemption is that “a Torah will go forth from Me” (Yeshayahu 51:4). On this verse Midrash Vayikra Rabba 13 explains that “G-d will reveal a New Torah:” through the Moshiach."
But not a new Torah, but - "Moshiach will teach Torah on a profoundly deep level that we have never been able to see or grasp before"
*quotes are from: https://www.ouisrael.org/torah-tidbits/will-moshiach-reveal-a-new-torah/ "

And I asked:
"SO, do you all agree with that interpretation of "a law shall proceed from me" or do you understand it to mean something different?

And how does this fit with -
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Any thoughts? Has anyone studied this? "

I posted this at the top of the OP because it is the verse that the quotes was based on:

"I have a couple of questions about this:"
Isa 51:4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people."
___
I asked if anyone agreed with the interpretation that I quoted from the Jewish site; you obviously don't, so that's fine by me.

There is an 25 minute gap between me editing my post as I had spotted the error and added a few extra words, and your post as shown above.

 

[Heber Book List]

The quotes in the OP were from a Jewish site as I stated. My words are in green here-
"According to what I've read, this means God will reveal a new Torah through Moshiach -"One of the central prophecies of the Final Redemption is that “a Torah will go forth from Me” (Yeshayahu 51:4). On this verse Midrash Vayikra Rabba 13 explains that “G-d will reveal a New Torah:” through the Moshiach."
But not a new Torah, but - "Moshiach will teach Torah on a profoundly deep level that we have never been able to see or grasp before"
*quotes are from: https://www.ouisrael.org/torah-tidbits/will-moshiach-reveal-a-new-torah/ "

And I asked:
"SO, do you all agree with that interpretation of "a law shall proceed from me" or do you understand it to mean something different?

And how does this fit with -
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Any thoughts? Has anyone studied this? "

I posted this at the top of the OP because it is the verse that the quotes was based on:

"I have a couple of questions about this:"
Isa 51:4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people."
___
I asked if anyone agreed with the interpretation that I quoted from the Jewish site; you obviously don't, so that's fine by me.

Your last post to me, before the above quote, was to ask me if I thought the KJV quote was wrong - I said that I agreed that the KJV quote was wrong.

 

[chunkofcoal]

There is an 25 minute gap between me editing my post as I had spotted the error and added a few extra words, and your post as shown above. I am not answerable for your late response to the post on your computer.

Perhaps you woud be kind enough to re-read my post and amend your comments, above.

PS It shows at the bottom left when a post was last edited!

I edited my post.

 

[Heber Book List]

I edited my post.

Todah rabah

 

[chunkofcoal]

I don't understand your point in Luke

I wasn't going to post anything else for the moment, but...
I posted the scriptures from Luke because I think there is a comparison between what the Jews believe - “G-d will reveal a New Torah:” (see quotes in the OP) and what Yeshua said about new wine and new cloth.

 

[Heber Book List]

I wasn't going to post anything else for the moment, but...
I posted the scriptures from Luke because I think there is a comparison between what the Jews believe - “G-d will reveal a New Torah:” (see quotes in the OP) and what Yeshua said about new wine and new cloth.

Do you think my post #30 throws a little light on it: When Yeshua comes and stands with his feet on the mountain, and all the Gentiles head to worship G_d, then he will teach them (the Gentiles), and others, the law.

 

[chunkofcoal]

Do you think my post #30 throws a little light on it: When Yeshua comes and stands with his feet on the mountain, and all the Gentiles head to worship G_d, then he will teach them (the Gentiles), and others, the law.

So you don't think there is any "more" for Believers and the Jews?