Isaiah 51:4

[chunkofcoal]

I have a couple of questions about this:
Isa 51:4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.

According to what I've read, this means God will reveal a new Torah through Moshiach -
"One of the central prophecies of the Final Redemption is that “a Torah will go forth from Me” (Yeshayahu 51:4). On this verse Midrash Vayikra Rabba 13 explains that “G-d will reveal a New Torah:” through the Moshiach."
But not a new Torah, but - "Moshiach will teach Torah on a profoundly deep level that we have never been able to see or grasp before"
*quotes are from: https://www.ouisrael.org/torah-tidbits/will-moshiach-reveal-a-new-torah/

SO, do you all agree with that interpretation of "a law shall proceed from me" or do you understand it to mean something different?

And how does this fit with -
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Any thoughts? Has anyone studied this?

(I know the SOP states:
Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles believe the Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept, elucidated, and taught.
so if these questions aren't allowed here one of the mods can delete this. )

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Your OP is confused it seems. It looks like you started (the first half of the op) with
some lesson that is not Scripture/ not TORAH.
(the stuff about 'new torah')....

That invalidates everything, I think.

If you are seeking to learn about Yahweh and Yahshua HaMashiach,
I would say to stop at once giving any weight to or listening to non-Scriptural teachers, if you have been listening to them in the past.

 

[Anto9us]

For the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the Law of Sin and Death.

 

[Heber Book List]

I have a couple of questions about this:
Isa 51:4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.

According to what I've read, this means God will reveal a new Torah through Moshiach -
"One of the central prophecies of the Final Redemption is that “a Torah will go forth from Me” (Yeshayahu 51:4). On this verse Midrash Vayikra Rabba 13 explains that “G-d will reveal a New Torah:” through the Moshiach."
But not a new Torah, but - "Moshiach will teach Torah on a profoundly deep level that we have never been able to see or grasp before"
*quotes are from: https://www.ouisrael.org/torah-tidbits/will-moshiach-reveal-a-new-torah/

SO, do you all agree with that interpretation of "a law shall proceed from me" or do you understand it to mean something different?

And how does this fit with -
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Any thoughts? Has anyone studied this?

(I know the SOP states:
Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles believe the Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept, elucidated, and taught.
so if these questions aren't allowed here one of the mods can delete this. )

Can you share with us any other source(s), and Bible version, you have used that relate to your OP?

 

[Open Heart]

For the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the Law of Sin and Death.

What exactly is your point?

 

[gadar perets]

I have a couple of questions about this:
Isa 51:4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.

According to what I've read, this means God will reveal a new Torah through Moshiach -
"One of the central prophecies of the Final Redemption is that “a Torah will go forth from Me” (Yeshayahu 51:4). On this verse Midrash Vayikra Rabba 13 explains that “G-d will reveal a New Torah:” through the Moshiach."
But not a new Torah, but - "Moshiach will teach Torah on a profoundly deep level that we have never been able to see or grasp before"
*quotes are from: https://www.ouisrael.org/torah-tidbits/will-moshiach-reveal-a-new-torah/

SO, do you all agree with that interpretation of "a law shall proceed from me" or do you understand it to mean something different?

And how does this fit with -
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Any thoughts? Has anyone studied this?

(I know the SOP states:
Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles believe the Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept, elucidated, and taught.
so if these questions aren't allowed here one of the mods can delete this. )

Unless I'm reading the Hebrew wrong, I don't see the word "a" in the text.

הקשׁיבו אלי עמי ולאומי אלי האזינו כי תורה מאתי תצא ומשׁפטי לאור עמים ארגיע׃
​

The word in blue is "for" and the word in red is "Torah". The text reads, "Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for Torah shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.

The same Torah of Jeremiah 31:33 that is written on hearts and minds will go forth from Zion, from YHWH.

 

[chunkofcoal]

Your OP is confused it seems. It looks like you started (the first half of the op) with
some lesson that is not Scripture/ not TORAH.
(the stuff about 'new torah')....

That invalidates everything, I think.

If you are seeking to learn about Yahweh and Yahshua HaMashiach,
I would say to stop at once giving any weight to or listening to non-Scriptural teachers, if you have been listening to them in the past.

You don't read Bible commentaries?

I don't consider them to be "non-scriptural teachers" -
Rom 3:1-2 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? (2) Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

And it states in this forums SOP -Literature: While we believe that the Bible is the Word of G-d, we also believe that it can be educational and informative to study other Jewish Literature such as the Mishnah Torah, Talmud etc. We believe, as Yeshua taught, that this does not overrule the Torah, nor is on equal basis with Torah, but it can be used to clarify ambiguous passages in the Bible.

 

[chunkofcoal]

Can you share with us any other source(s), and Bible version, you have used that relate to your OP?

I would assume their interpretation/commentary came from the Hebrew.
I could post a lot of links to commentaries regarding the idea of the new Torah of Moshiach, but I'll just post this one from FFOZ - https://ffoz.org/discover/torah/the-new-torah-of-the-messianic-era.html

 

[chunkofcoal]

Unless I'm reading the Hebrew wrong, I don't see the word "a" in the text.

הקשׁיבו אלי עמי ולאומי אלי האזינו כי תורה מאתי תצא ומשׁפטי לאור עמים ארגיע׃
​

The word in blue is "for" and the word in red is "Torah". The text reads, "Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for Torah shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.

The same Torah of Jeremiah 31:33 that is written on hearts and minds will go forth from Zion, from YHWH.

Thank you for your reply, gadar perets.

 

[Heber Book List]

I would assume their interpretation/commentary came from the Hebrew.
I could post a lot of links to commentaries regarding the idea of the new Torah of Moshiach, but I'll just post this one from FFOZ - https://ffoz.org/discover/torah/the-new-torah-of-the-messianic-era.html

I do not find the FFOZ source very convincing - it dances around the theme but has no solid basis. Also, I could not find a Bible that says what yours does so, can we know which version you have used that led to this thread?

 

[gadar perets]

I would assume their interpretation/commentary came from the Hebrew.
I could post a lot of links to commentaries regarding the idea of the new Torah of Moshiach, but I'll just post this one from FFOZ - https://ffoz.org/discover/torah/the-new-torah-of-the-messianic-era.html

That FFOZ article doesn't even cite a verse stating a new Torah is coming. It just says the Sages/rabbis believe ...

 

[chunkofcoal]

I do not find the FFOZ source very convincing - it dances around the theme but has no solid basis. Also, I could not find a Bible that says what yours does so, can we know which version you have used that led to this thread?

The verse I posted is from the KJV from the e-sword program.

I was just curious if you all agreed with the quotes I posted. If you don't, you don't and just understand that verse to mean something else.

If you do agree with the quotes, then I was wondering how it fit with having the Law written on ones heart - would this new torah from messiah come before that? Simultaneously?
I kind of like the idea that Messiah will (does?) teach torah on a "profoundly deep level."

 

[chunkofcoal]

That FFOZ article doesn't even cite a verse stating a new Torah is coming. It just says the Sages/rabbis believe ...

The idea comes from Isaiah 51:4 "for a law (torah) shall proceed from me".

 

[chunkofcoal]

So what do you all think Isaiah 51:4 means?

 

[Heber Book List]

The verse I posted is from the KJV from the e-sword program.

I was just curious if you all agreed with the quotes I posted. If you don't, you don't and just understand that verse to mean something else.

If you do agree with the quotes, then I was wondering how it fit with having the Law written on ones heart - would this new torah from messiah come before that? Simultaneously?
I kind of like the idea that Messiah will (does?) teach torah on a "profoundly deep level."

My Tanach refers back to Isaiah 2:2-3 Which says he will instruct us that we may walk in his ways. Obviously G_d will teach us the pure Law, not as seen through man's dirty / dark glass or mirror, as Paul comments in 1 Cor. 13. Tanach goes on to say in vs 3 that instruction (Law / Torah) will come forth from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem (not 'a' word, but 'the' word - definite article). He will then judge Jerusalem etc etc. I see nothing about any sort of New Law, other than in the sense that Yeshua taught G_d's law, not man's perversion of it; maybe this is what the sages had in mind?

 

[Shimshon]

Has anyone studied this?

Yes, in depth.
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/torah-of-the-spirit.8048169/

What exactly is your point?

Romans 7:4-6

 

[Shimshon]

The same Torah of Jeremiah 31:33 that is written on hearts and minds will go forth from Zion, from YHWH.

I'm curious how you dealt with or ignored Hebrews 7:12 and Jeremiah 3:16

Are not the requirements of the ark of the covenant and all of its offerings and all of its ordinances part of the Torah? It seems both Paul and Jeremiah speak of a change, a transformation, not the same, as copies and shadows. In fact Jeremiah stated that when Israel is restored the ark of the covenant will not even enter their minds and they will never build another one. Not exactly the same 'in those days' is it.?

 

[AbbaLove]

So what do you all think Isaiah 51:4 means?

Hebrews 8:10-12 (CJB)
10 “‘For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Isra’el after those days,’ says Adonai: ‘I will put my Torah in their minds and write it on their hearts; I will be their God, and they will be my people.
11 “‘None of them will teach his fellow-citizen or his brother, saying, “Know Adonai!” For all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest,
12 because I will be merciful toward their wickednesses and remember their sins no more.’”[a]

a. Jeremiah 31:31​

 

[gadar perets]

I'm curious how you dealt with or ignored Hebrews 7:12 and Jeremiah 3:16

Are not the requirements of the ark of the covenant and all of its offerings and all of its ordinances part of the Torah? It seems both Paul and Jeremiah speak of a change, a transformation, not the same, as copies and shadows. In fact Jeremiah stated that when Israel is restored the ark of the covenant will not even enter their minds and they will never build another one. Not exactly the same 'in those days' is it.?

Hebrews 7:12 - For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
​

This concerns ONLY the priesthood; specifically, the fact that YHWH made Yeshua high priest even though he is not of Aaron's lineage. How? Via the oath He made in Psalm 110:4. In other words, Torah was changed via that oath to allow Yeshua to minister as High Priest.

Jeremiah 3:16) And it shall come to pass, when you be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, says YHWH, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of YHWH: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
17) At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of YHWH; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of YHWH, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.​

The ark was the throne of YHWH on earth and contained in the ark were the Ten Commandments. It was housed in the Temple. YHWH sat on His throne ruling His Kingdom as He sat upon the rules that governed His Kingdom. Where is His Temple now? Are believers in Yeshua not His Temple (1 Corinthians 3:16; 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16; etc.)? Within the temple of our body is Torah written on our hearts and minds. YHWH sits on His throne that houses His Torah (our heart) in His Temple (our body) via His indwelling Holy Spirit. There will no longer be a need for the ark of the covenant to house an external law. The same will hold true for all Jews that partake of the New Covenant.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

My Tanach refers back to Isaiah 2:2-3 Which says he will instruct us that we may walk in his ways. Obviously G_d will teach us the pure Law, not as seen through man's dirty / dark glass or mirror, as Paul comments in 1 Cor. 13. Tanach goes on to say in vs 3 that instruction (Law / Torah) will come forth from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem (not 'a' word, but 'the' word - definite article). He will then judge Jerusalem etc etc. I see nothing about any sort of New Law, other than in the sense that Yeshua taught G_d's law, not man's perversion of it; maybe this is what the sages had in mind?

No, the sages had nothing of truth in mind when they contradicted and opposed God's Word. Thus their commentaries are proven not to be true, rather to be deceptive.


@chunkofcoal , the things you are trusting are deceiving you entirely.
Never trust a commentary as you do, when it deceives and when it obviously contradicts God's Word and God's Plan and God's Purpose in Jesus.

I would assume their interpretation/commentary came from the Hebrew.
I could post a lot of links to commentaries regarding the idea of the new Torah of Moshiach, but I'll just post this one from FFOZ - https://ffoz.org/discover/torah/the-new-torah-of-the-messianic-era.html

You don't read Bible commentaries?

I don't consider them to be "non-scriptural teachers" -
Rom 3:1-2 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? (2) Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

And it states in this forums SOP -Literature: While we believe that the Bible is the Word of G-d, we also believe that it can be educational and informative to study other Jewish Literature such as the Mishnah Torah, Talmud etc. We believe, as Yeshua taught, that this does not overrule the Torah, nor is on equal basis with Torah, but it can be used to clarify ambiguous passages in the Bible.