Isaiah 40:22 -- "Globe of the Earth"

[Subduction Zone]

I posted his words. Go back and read them.

From what I saw you only posted what you claim that he said. Without a source a claim that you posted his words is an empty one.

 

[lasthero]

Blah blah

Maturity.

 

[AV1611VET]

For some reason I like this song:

 

[T. Taylor]

Good.

I don't want it to mean "sphere."

I want it to mean "circle."

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,

God sits "upon" it.

Not "in" it.

Not "inside" it.

Not "within" it.

Upon it.

The circle is perpendicular to the equator/meridian.

What we call the z-axis.

Yes, I agree that circle (chuwg) means circle.

The word upon is translated from the hebrew word עַל {al} (Strong's 05921) and it can mean a number of things, for example: upon, above, over. In most translations it is translated as above.
So I could say:

God sits "above" it.

Not "in" it.

Not "inside" it.

Not "within" it.

Not "upon" it.

Above it.

I don't think you have a basis for your z-axis circle story aside from your imagination.

You must have a vivid imagination if you think that God sits upon a rotating and revolving earth in a vacuum.

 

[AV1611VET]

I don't think you have a basis for your z-axis circle story aside from your imagination.

It's called "three dimensional".

When you have something with an x-axis, y-axis, and z-axis ... and it's either a map or a globe ... then I would venture to say it is a globe.

Thus the Bible, if anything, speaks of the earth as a sphere.

In addition, keep in mind that a map is square, whereas a globe is circular.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It's called "three dimensional".

When you have something with an x-axis, y-axis, and z-axis ... and it's either a map or a globe ... then I would venture to say it is a globe.

Thus the Bible, if anything, speaks of the earth as a sphere.

In addition, keep in mind that a map is square, whereas a globe is circular.

Nope, once again you fail at geometry. Your "z" axis is incorrectly applied. You support the Flat Earth with this fail. The z-axis is the height above a flat plane, or in this case a Flat Earth.

 

[FEZZILLA]

From what I saw you only posted what you claim that he said. Without a source a claim that you posted his words is an empty one.

Hey bud, believe what you want. I have a FB full of priests and Bible scholars from all over the world. What I don't know somebody else does. I do know a Greek Bible scholar from Greece. I contacted him personally through FB. I copy-pasted his words here.

So believe what you want. Here in the U.S. atheist Professors can get away with lying. But if Carrier wants to challenge a real Greek scholar I can arrange that.

 

[FEZZILLA]

You mean, the words that you claimed were his typo?

I don't know if you will continue to deny it... but the verse in the LXX version does say 'gyron' and nothing else.
So if your scholar friend claims that 'gyros' would be the proper form in this case, he is having a beef with the autors of the text.

Considering that you constantly quoted the verse and related sources, and misinterpreted them because of your inability to distinguish between greek letters, I find it much more probable that you misinterprete your friend here. It's kind of a habit of yours.

Everybody makes typos, especially in FB chat box. That's the common place to make typos.

He said: "Gyron, Gyros, Γύρος, means "round" not circle. And it can well mean the shape of a sphere, not necessarily a circle."

He further went on to say,

"Concerning Gyros...it is actually the same word used to say "circumnavigate the earth". It can mean to go around in circles too. For instance, the Hebrews went GYRO of Jericho 7 times and then it fell.
Ιt's because words in Greek change according to the use they are in. For instance: O gyros Tou gyrou - of the gyros (possessive) Ton Gyron - third person O gyre - calling out to gyros like saying Hey Mark! Come over here. It's the same word. The verse says "the one who possesses the circumference of the earth". I.e. "The whole earth".
the first O in O gyros is O (omicron). The last one in O gyre is Ω omega. The last one shows exclamation. O! gyre!
Gyros is also (and this is useful for our purposes here) rotation. You can find this meaning on this page in Greek, in the first sentence.
Γύρος (αποσαφήνιση) - Βικιπαίδεια
So when the earth rotates.....it is the same word in a noun γυρίζει/gyrizi
I think the guy on the page shot himself in the leg using gyros to make his case..."

So I asked to confirm: "So gyron and gyros are the same words that apply to the verse?"

His reply: "yes, but proper grammar demands gyros here...elsewhere it could be gyros depending on the use. Same word though."

So the proper word understood by Greeks today is gyros. The word used in the LXX is gyron. Both are the same word. The same thing can be said about the Latin gyrum. Gyrus is the the same word as gyrum...but gyrum is used in the verse. Here is an example:

Like its close relative gyron it means round
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/dynamic-translation/b1718e1e5f3e5114321f4870b21b21de07849008.html

Here's another link
https://www.wordsense.eu/gyrum/

"gȳrum

1. Inflection of gȳrus (accusative singular)"

Though gyrus is the same word and both can apply to the verse
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...8dce02c00388566751dfd448c6814ee23d104cb1.html

 

[Freodin]

Everybody makes typos, especially in FB chat box. That's the common place to make typos.

He said: "Gyron, Gyros, Γύρος, means "round" not circle. And it can well mean the shape of a sphere, not necessarily a circle."

He further went on to say,

"Concerning Gyros...it is actually the same word used to say "circumnavigate the earth". It can mean to go around in circles too. For instance, the Hebrews went GYRO of Jericho 7 times and then it fell.
Ιt's because words in Greek change according to the use they are in. For instance: O gyros Tou gyrou - of the gyros (possessive) Ton Gyron - third person O gyre - calling out to gyros like saying Hey Mark! Come over here. It's the same word. The verse says "the one who possesses the circumference of the earth". I.e. "The whole earth".
the first O in O gyros is O (omicron). The last one in O gyre is Ω omega. The last one shows exclamation. O! gyre!
Gyros is also (and this is useful for our purposes here) rotation. You can find this meaning on this page in Greek, in the first sentence.
Γύρος (αποσαφήνιση) - Βικιπαίδεια
So when the earth rotates.....it is the same word in a noun γυρίζει/gyrizi
I think the guy on the page shot himself in the leg using gyros to make his case..."

So I asked to confirm: "So gyron and gyros are the same words that apply to the verse?"

His reply: "yes, but proper grammar demands gyros here...elsewhere it could be gyros depending on the use. Same word though."

So the proper word understood by Greeks today is gyros. The word used in the LXX is gyron. Both are the same word. The same thing can be said about the Latin gyrum. Gyrus is the the same word as gyrum...but gyrum is used in the verse. Here is an example:

Like its close relative gyron it means round
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/dynamic-translation/b1718e1e5f3e5114321f4870b21b21de07849008.html

Here's another link
https://www.wordsense.eu/gyrum/

"gȳrum

1. Inflection of gȳrus (accusative singular)"

Though gyrus is the same word and both can apply to the verse
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...8dce02c00388566751dfd448c6814ee23d104cb1.html

You you very good at copying and pasting.
But I cannot get rid of the feeling that you have absolutely no idea what it all means.

Please, explain to me, in your own words, why Isa 40:22 LXX has "gyron" instead of "gyros", or why the Vulgata has "gyrum" instead of "gyrus".

 

[FEZZILLA]

Nope, once again you fail at geometry. Your "z" axis is incorrectly applied. You support the Flat Earth with this fail. The z-axis is the height above a flat plane, or in this case a Flat Earth.

And you fail Theology. 2000 years of Christian theology and tradition read globe earth. So all this speculation you're doing with geometry is just another way of trying to ignore greater known facts. We've been through all this before and I proved to you that in old English the word circle meant globe when applied to the shape of the earth. Even today the word circle is a synonym for sphere. The word circle carries more than one meaning but you got your mind fixated on the meaning that doesn't apply to the text.

Remember, circle is an old English word. Its not Hebrew.

 

[FEZZILLA]

You you very good at copying and pasting.
But I cannot get rid of the feeling that you have absolutely no idea what it all means.

Please, explain to me, in your own words, why Isa 40:22 LXX has "gyron" instead of "gyros", or why the Vulgata has "gyrum" instead of "gyrus".

I already provided that explanation but you don't read posts, so..

 

[Freodin]

I already provided that explanation but you don't read posts, so..

No, you didn't. All you did - and ever do - is post some quotes, regardless of content or context, and claim that they agree with your claims.

I ask you again: explain IN YOU OWN WORDS why these different words appear in the relevant verses.

I assert that you cannot provide a correct explanation in your own words because you do not understand how these languages work.

 

[Freodin]

Remember, circle is an old English word. Its not Hebrew.

It is indeed not Hebrew. But neither is it Old English. It is a derivate from Latin "circulus", meaning "small ring" (which would be flat).

Again, you demonstrate the main flaw in your argument. You present examples of words that can mean both "something flat and round" or "something spherical"... in certain circumstances. (hey, CIRCUMstances... I wonder where this word comes from?)

You never try to find out where this word originated from, and why it has additional meanings. You simply assert that is must have a specific meaning, because it agrees with your presupposed oppinion.

You never wonder why, if the text was meant to TEACH a specific interpretation, it never used the unambigious terms that did exist.

 

[AV1611VET]

Nope, once again you fail at geometry. Your "z" axis is incorrectly applied. You support the Flat Earth with this fail. The z-axis is the height above a flat plane, or in this case a Flat Earth.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That is not what you have been saying. That's the problem. If you look at that coordinate system all three, x,y, and z go out to space. You have been describing this:

Notice that the x and y directions are parallel to the disc and z is up which is what you repeatedly claimed.

 

[AV1611VET]

That is not what you have been saying.

Then how should I explain it?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Then how should I explain it?

You could always admit the obvious. That the writers of the Bible did not know that the Earth was a sphere. Why should that matter to your belief? It is an indication of a weak faith not to be able to admit to the obvious.

 

[AV1611VET]

You could always admit the obvious. That the writers of the Bible did not know that the Earth was a sphere.

That's not going to happen.

I believe Adam wrote Genesis 1, and I also believe God took him on a tour of His creation.

Thus it would have been passed on down the line that the earth was round (assuming anyone cared at the time).

In addition, anyone walking north↔south would disappear below the horizon after some thirty miles.

Which, in my opinion, they knew that without even having to observe it.

Why should that matter to your belief?

Why should what matter?

The correct wording?

Of course it matters.

I'm not an academian who thinks "magic" and "miracles" are synonyms.

It is an indication of a weak faith not to be able to admit to the obvious.

You show it "obvious" first," then I'll think about it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That's not going to happen.

I believe Adam wrote Genesis 1, and I also believe God took him on a tour of His creation.

Thus it would have been passed on down the line that the earth was round (assuming anyone cared at the time).

In addition, anyone walking north↔south would disappear below the horizon after some thirty miles.

Which, in my opinion, they knew that without even having to observe it.
Why should what matter?

The correct wording?

Of course it matters.

I'm not an academian who thinks "magic" and "miracles" are synonyms.
You show it "obvious" first," then I'll think about it.

Sorry, but a person is lost to sight long before they can walk across the horizon. Even if you were in the Fargo/Moorhead area you won't see that and I don't know of any flatter area outside of the salt flats.

And like it or not magic and miracles are synonyms. You might not think that but that does not change the facts.

 

[FEZZILLA]

It is indeed not Hebrew. But neither is it Old English. It is a derivate from Latin "circulus", meaning "small ring" (which would be flat).

Again, you demonstrate the main flaw in your argument. You present examples of words that can mean both "something flat and round" or "something spherical"... in certain circumstances. (hey, CIRCUMstances... I wonder where this word comes from?)

You never try to find out where this word originated from, and why it has additional meanings. You simply assert that is must have a specific meaning, because it agrees with your presupposed oppinion.

You never wonder why, if the text was meant to TEACH a specific interpretation, it never used the unambigious terms that did exist.

I know the origin of the English circle and I've mentioned that many times in this topic that it derived from the Latin circulus.

Latin Definition of circulus.
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...zO_5AeYUYIqn7fDLf35CFu_zGumicqSJDxJEFYsghKQeA

Right away I found orb. An orb is circular. However, neither the Hebrew, Greek or Latin use the English word circle in Isaiah 40:22. The Hebrew uses the word chuwg which carries the meaning of circle, compass, circuit and sphere. The Greek uses gyron which is just the accusative of gyros. We know from gyro/gyros/gyron/gyre came the gyroscope which is used to prove the earth is round. The Latin Vulgate, however, does not use circulus.

"qui sedet super gyrum terrae et habitatores eius sunt quasi lucustae qui extendit velut nihilum caelos et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum."

The word used is gyrum which is the Inflection of gȳrus (accusative singular).

The definition of gyrus
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...5JOJhtWcwoGPjpMRDcOrhSHnUSTHp0QeNfIjPkn0-dYwA

Right away we find "round, glubus, orbis, ciculus"

Then there is the phrase gyrum terrae. This is also gyrus terrarum.

Definition of gyrus terrarum
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/d...wfQcEdkR1stVQYrbpzXB5gInPK281rGwZLfztqmMWntno

"Globe of the earth"! The earth is round and it moves around, or gyre around.

So how did gyrum/gyrus get translated circle in English? Many scholars agree the word circle would have been better translated as round or orb or even globe as the Douay-Rheims translated it. Though back in the old English days of translating the word circle was not considered vulgar as it is today.

Going to the original Websters dictionary for the definition of circle.
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Circle

If you have the actual facsimile of Webster's 1828 Dictionary there is more information than the online version--which appears to be the case with all online sources which lack in completeness. Noah Webster includes the following:

"2. In popular use, the line that comprehends the figure, the plane or surface comprehended, and the whole body or solid matter of a round substance, are denominated a circle; a ring; an orb; the earth.
He that sitteth on the circle of the earth. Is.xI."

Other definitions of circle that apply to the earth:

5. A series ending where it begins, and perpetually repeated; a going round.

8. Circles of the sphere, are such as cut the mundane sphere, and have their periphery either on its movable surface, as the meridians; or in another immovable, conterminous and equidistant surface, as the ecliptic, equator, and its parallels.

9. Circles of altitude or almucantars, are circles parallel to the horizon, having their common pole in the zenith, and diminishing as they approach the zenith.

10. Circles of latitude, are great circles perpendicular to the plane of the ecliptic, passing through its poles and through every star and planet.

11. Circles of longitude, are lesser circles parallel to the ecliptic, diminishing as they recede from it.

12. circle of perpetual apparition, one of the lesser circles, parallel to the equator, described by any point of the sphere touching the northern point of the horizon, and carried about with the diurnal motion. The stars within this circle never set.

13. circle of perpetual occultation, another lesser circle at a like distance from the equator, which includes all the stars which never appear in our hemisphere.

14. Diurnal circles, are immovable circles supposed to be described by the several stars and other points in the heavens, in their diurnal rotation round the earth, or rather in the rotation of the earth round its axis.

CIRCLE, verb transitive

1. To move round; to revolve round.

And other planets circle other suns.

2. To encircle; to encompass; to surround; to inclose.

3. To circle in, to confine; to keep together.

CIRCLE, verb intransitive To move circularly; as, the bowl circles; the circling years."

The earth is in fact circular.

Definition of circular
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Circular

"1. In the form of a circle; round; circumscribed by a circle; spherical; as, the sun appears to be circular."

So the English word circle was chosen because back then the word circle meant globe when applied to the earth. Though many agree it is not the best choice of words since chuwg also means circuit and compass.

The definition of circuit
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Circuit

"1. The act of moving or passing round; as the periodical circuit of the earth round the sun, or of the moon round the earth."

So the Hebrew word chuwg means the earth is circular as a sphere is circular. The word circuit means the earth moves!

English definition of compass
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - compass

"COMPASS, verb transitive

1. To stretch round; to extend so as to embrace the whole; hence, to inclose, encircle, grasp or seize; as, to compass with the arms."

Circle is a synonym for sphere.
I found great synonyms for "sphere" on the new Thesaurus.com!

Circle is a synonym for orb
I found great synonyms for "orb" on the new Thesaurus.com!

It says "globe, sphere, ball, circle, round."

Examining the 4 English Words Used to Describe Chuwg,

So both Hebrew lexicons use 4 English words to describe the Hebrew word chûwg.

1. circle.

In old English the word circle, whenever applied to the earth, means globe. This is because the English word circle derived from the Latin circulus which also meant globe whenever applied to the earth, as circle even today is a synonym for globe. And since our English Bibles all came from old English translations, it is only wise we should consider the old English usage of the word and how it was applied in the Bible.

2. Compass.

This word is used to describe a circle that surrounds, environs, encompasses from all sides. Here is your latitude and longitude, where horizontal and vertical lines intersect. Job 26:10.

3. circuit.

While the word circuit shares much in common with a circle, it does not mean circle. It means the earth moves in a circle. This accounts for both the rotation of the earth and its circuit around the sun. Many times in the OT the word H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl is used to describe "the habitable globe." In Latin this word translates to orbis and an orb moves and orbits.

Sphere

Definition of of Sphere
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Sphere

3. An orbicular body, or a circular figure representing the earth or apparent heavens.

4. Circuit of motion; revolution; orbit; as the diurnal sphere

A RIGHT SPHERE, that aspect of the heavens in which the circles of daily motion of the heavenly bodies, are perpendicular to the horizon. A spectator at the equator views a right sphere

A PARALLEL SPHERE, that in which the circles of daily motion are parallel to the horizon. A spectator at either of the poles, would view a parallel sphere

AN OBLIQUE SPHERE, that in which the circles of daily motion are oblique to the horizon. as is the case to a spectator at any point between the equator and either pole.

ARMILLARY SPHERE, an artificial representation of the circles of the sphere by means of brass rings.

2000 years of theology support the fact that the Bible teaches globe earth. All the facts refute atheist assumptions.