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Isaiah 40:22 -- "Globe of the Earth"

Discussion in 'Physical & Life Sciences' started by FEZZILLA, Feb 20, 2019.

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  1. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    There are some people here who simply don't know how to apply proper exegesis to Scripture. I've always known that Isaiah 40:22 meant globe, as in latitude and longitude circle, vertical and horizontal circle. This 2D flat interpretation is only less than 200 years old and it came from atheists who chose not to know the real meaning of the verse, but would rather make up a new meaning that the early Christian church would not recognize. So with the topic we will discuss one verse -- Isaiah 40:22:

    "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (Isaiah 40:22, KJV).

    Here is the same verse from the 4th century Latin Vulgate:

    "qui sedet super gyrum terrae et habitatores eius sunt quasi lucustae qui extendit velut nihilum caelos et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum"

    ✅Word: Gyrum (aka, Gyrus), from H2329: חוּג chûwg

    Latin Definition of Gyrus
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...6xZdr1VYJgTQ4bTP6IrXghta4HftCpq2RT4krKufvdjLY

    Latin definition of Gyrus Terrarum
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/dynamic-translation/0d5c864c6dbaf08cb4645e30a1f5ca3470d5ab1c.html

    English: "It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (Strong's H2329: חוּג chûwg, -- Douay Rheims Bible).

    Van-Balen-Wolters-Globe-van-Leest-Antiques-1.jpg

    Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon, H2329: "חוּג m. a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky, Pro.8:27; Job 22:14; of the world, Isa.40:22."
    sphere-circle.png

    Here is 4th century Bishop Ambrose reading from Isaiah 40:22.

    "And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.231).
    28379605_407181259726554_4873315987675887118_n.jpg



    Interestingly, this Jeremiah verse reads a lot like Isaiah 40:22,

    "Yea euen the Lorde of hostes, that wyth his power made the earthe, with hys wysedome prepared the rounde worlde, and with his discrecyon spred oute the heauens" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

    Latin Vulgate: "qui fecit terram in fortitudine sua praeparavit orbem in sapientia sua et prudentia sua extendit caelos"

    Latin Definition or Orbis
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...q21cuxYck0uRjcFFuAJ_GnZHKBUE0NxAN7CbJg1R56PXc

    Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon for H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl
    46503575_10161103243135223_6829675694939701248_n.jpg
    Bible Commentaries:

    Jamieson, Fausset & Brown: Commentary on the Whole Bible,

    “It is he--rather, connected to the last verse, Have ye not known?--have ye not understood Him that sitteth...? (vs.26) [MAUDER]. Circle--applicable to the globular form of the earth, above which, and the vault of the sky around it, above it, He sits. For “upon” translate “above.” as grasshoppers--or locusts in His sight (Num.13:33), as He looks down from on high (Ps.33:13, 14; 113:4-6).”

    Matthew Henry's Commentary,

    "Now that which is here said of God is (1.) That he has command of all creatures. The heaven and the earth themselves are under his management: He sits upon the circle, or globe, of the earth, v. 22. He that has the special residence of his glory in the upper world maintains a dominion over the lower world, gives law to it, and directs all the motions of it to his own glory. He sits undisturbed upon the earth, and establishes it. He is still stretching out the heavens, his power and providence keep them still stretched out, and will do so till the comes that they shall be rolled together like a scroll. He spreads them out as easily as we draw a curtain to and fro, opening these curtains in the morning and drawing them close again at night. And the heaven is to this earth as a tent to dwell in; it is a canopy drawn over our heads, et quod tegit omnia coelum --- and it encircles all. --Ovid. See Ps.104:2 (2.) That the children of men, even the greatest and mightiest, are as nothing before him. The numerous inhabitants of this earth are in his eye as grasshoppers in ours, so little and inconsiderable, of such small value, of such little use, and so easily crushed. Proud men's lifting up themselves is but like the grasshopper's leap; in an instant they must stoop down to the earth again. If the spies thought themselves as grasshoppers before the sons of Anak (Num.13:33), what are we before the great God? Grasshoppers live but awhile, and live carelessly, not like the ant; so do the most men. (3.) That those who appear and act against him, how formidable soever they may be to their fellow-creatures, will certainly be humble and brought down by the mighty hand of God."

    The Bible Knowledge Commentary (1985 Edition)

    “God’s sovereign control over the world (40:21-26). 40:21-22. From His sovereign position in heaven God watches over His created universe. You (used four times in v.21) refers to people in general. The force of the first question, for example, is “Doesn’t everyone know this?” (cf. v. 28) The Lord is like a king sitting enthroned above the circle (hug, “horizon,” which is circular; cf. Job 26:10: Prov.8:27) of the earth and over His people who by comparison seem like mere grasshoppers. The heavens (the sky) are pictured as spread out like a tent for Him to live in (cf.Ps.104:2). Isaiah was not presenting a detailed idea of God’s abode. He was merely using imagery that his readers would easily understand.”

    Henry Morris Study Bible,

    “40:22 circle of the earth. Hebrew khug, translated “compassed” in Job 26:10 and “compass” in Proverbs 8:27. All three, in context, clearly refer to the spherical shape of the earth.
    40:22 stretcheth out the heavens. This phrase is possibly a reference to the expanding universe, as envisioned by modern astronomers. There are numerous references in Scripture to the “stretching-out” or “spreading-out” of the heavens (space) when God created the universe. See, for example, Job 9:8; Psalm 104:2; Isaiah 42:5; 44:24; 51:13; Jeremiah 10:12. Alternatively, the “heavens” referred to here may refer simply to the atmospheric heavens, spread out like a curtain or “tent to dwell in” around a circle of the earth. This atmospheric “tent”, refracting and spreading light over the hemisphere, is sharply distinct from the darkness outside.”


    Gill's Exposition

    "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

    It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,.... Or, "the globe (z)" of it; for the earth is spherical or globular: not a flat plain, but round, hung as a ball in the air; here Jehovah sits as the Lord and Sovereign; being the Maker of it, he is above it, orders and directs its motion, and governs all things in it: Kimchi rightly observes, that the heavens are the circle of the earth, which is the centre of them, and around which they are; and so it signifies, that the Lord sits or dwells in the heavens, from whence he beholds the children of men:
    and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; or "locusts (a)"; as one upon a very great eminence looking down beholds creatures as exceeding small and little; and if the Israelites were to the "anakim" or giants as grasshoppers, Numbers 13:33, much more must puny mortals be such in the sight of God, and in comparison of him; and this may denote, not only the minuteness of men, but what weak, impotent, useless, worthless, and short lived creatures men are:

    that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain; alluding to the firmament or expanse made at the creation, and still continued; which is as a curtain to himself, which he draws around himself, he dwelling in the highest heavens, and in light inaccessible to mortals; and which he stretches out as a canopy around this earth, for the use of the inhabitants of it: or, "as a little thing"; or, as a little skin (b); and which he stretches out as easily as a man can stretch out that:

    and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in it; for himself to dwell in, and so stretches out the heavens like curtains about him; tents being made of such, and often of skins.

    (z) "super sphaeram", Pagninus; "globum", Montanus Vatablus; "super orbem telluris", Vitringa. (a) "ut locustae", Pagninus, Montanus, Cocceius, Vitringa; "tanquam locustae", Munster; "velut locustae", Junius & Tremellius, Piscator. (b) "velut tenue", Montanus; "tenuissimum", Vatablus; "pellem." Munster; so some in Vatablus; "pellculam", Gataker."
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2019
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  2. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

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    So what's the Jewish take on it? After all, it's their book.
     
  3. T. Taylor

    T. Taylor Seeking the Truth

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    final_images_png_ancienthebrewconceptionoftheuniverse.png
    This was the hebrew concept of the world.
     
  4. T. Taylor

    T. Taylor Seeking the Truth

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    No one interprets it as 2D. That is obviously nonsense.
    It is true that in the 19. century the number of the "flat earthers" increased, but they were mostly bible believing christians.
     
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  5. lasthero

    lasthero Newbie

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    You keep saying that atheists are behind this interpretation, but you never provide any evidence to support that. I don’t suppose this topic will be any different?
     
  6. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    Actually the high priesthood went from Moses to Jesus. The entire OT is about Jesus and mankind's redemption through the word made flesh.

    But lets ask an ancient Jew what shape the earth is according to Scripture.

    “After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, and separated it from the other parts; and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put it together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews” (Josephus, Antiquity 1:30).

    Josephus is describing how God, on the second day, placed a crystalline around the earth. This earth, not being held up by turtles or elephants or a whale, is determined by God to "stand by itself" (Job 26:7). You cannot place a firmament around the whole earth if the earth is flat or even a half-sphere. So here in the 1st century, Josephus refutes modern liberal assumptions. Did Josephus know how to read Hebrew? Sure he did! He not only knew how to read Hebrew but was also a highly educated historian. !
     
  7. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    Very uneducated in Scripture I would say. There have been few flat earth Christians. From the beginning of the church , Christians read globe earth from the Bible.
     
  8. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

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    My understanding of it that it makes perfect sense to interpret chwug as globe if you happen to know already that the Earth is in fact a sphere. But if you believe in a flat Earth, that verse won't give you any trouble, either. Certainly, it is not possible to conclude unequivocally from Is 40:22 that the Earth is a sphere. The verse does not teach a spherical Earth.
     
  9. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    Wow, you have an ancient Jewish map of earth. I guess this picture wins the discussion.

    NOT!

    That is a picture drawn up by an English-born Jewish liberal scholar by the name of Nahum Sarna (1923-2005). He made lots of assumptions which are refuted by Scripture and Tradition. There are no existing ancient Jewish maps of earth. Sarna's drawing is a 20th century fake. Its not an ancient map.
    28056706_418602358594998_267805004383905495_n.jpg


     
  10. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    By who's authority do you speak?
     
  11. T. Taylor

    T. Taylor Seeking the Truth

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    Actually it is very clear from this that Josephus did agree with the world view of his time: the Earth is a plane, which is covered with a dome.
     
  12. T. Taylor

    T. Taylor Seeking the Truth

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    Who said it is a map? It says right there that it is a CONCEPT.
     
  13. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    There is no dome in Josephus' words.
     
  14. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    Its a 20th century drawing. Its a fake.
     
  15. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jeremiah 51:15 - Where do you see the word 'round' in the Latin?
     
  16. T. Taylor

    T. Taylor Seeking the Truth

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    What do you mean fake? Somebody made it up?
     
  17. T. Taylor

    T. Taylor Seeking the Truth

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    The heavens are compared to a tent. How do you spread out a tent on a ball?
     
  18. Uber Genius

    Uber Genius "Super Genius"

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    Here is a link to the modern flat earth falsification:
    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/flat-earth-myth.7972319/

    The evidence you provided was more than sufficient to convince all that across the entirety of Christian belief there has been a concept of the earth as a globe. That said, why think that the Bible is giving us divine revelation about science?

    It seems like we have many cultural motifs throughout both testaments that are rife with the author's view of cosmology, and medicine, and slavery, and value of women, and sympathetic magic practices, that are in no way revelatory! They don't represent God's views or intentions for culture or anything other than the author's worldview.

    So it seems that we need to go further than just exegetical and hermeneutical methods and ask to what extent is verbal plenary inspiration a mix between God's revelation and the Biblical authors own free will to record his or her experiences and God approving of that writing knowing ahead of time every aspect of what that author was going to express.

    I'm not staking a position but suggesting that we spend time on the foundation and ask is the Bible meant to be as revelatory about science as it is God and man's relationship with him, and how God expects man to live, and what will the future after death look like.

    We see a current rush over the last couple decades to claim every contradictory scientific finding to be written in the scriptures. Concordism seems to be a method rather than an exegetical fallacy.
     
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  19. T. Taylor

    T. Taylor Seeking the Truth

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    In my view the Bible is the source of all truth. It has to be factual scientifically and in every aspect of its message, otherwise it cannot be called the Word of God.
    If we are honest with the text, the Bible doesn't agree with "science" in cosmology (but not only). So either the Bible's description of the world is wrong, or science got it wrong.
    I rather trust God's Word than man's science. One is eternal, the other is not.
     
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  20. Strathos

    Strathos No one important

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    Or maybe, just maybe... certain things in the Bible aren't meant to be taken literally?
     
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