saiful-Islam-Khattab said:
Islam - Islam
Is not that an "ism"?
Are you sure that there is no comparison of Islam to anything else? How can that be?
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Isaac or Ishmael?
- Thread starter Kris_J
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Islam - Islam
Is not that an "ism"?
Are you sure that there is no comparison of Islam to anything else? How can that be?
markie said:
All mankind and Jinns have free will. Satan was a Jinn. They can choose to do evil or good. God commanded the angels to bow down before Adam to give him respect because he would be the father of all mankind. And as we know a pious human being is better even then an angel in God's eyes. Adam was the first prophet. Muslims do not care for what Christian trinity is really. Worshipping any God besides Allah is considered to be a grave sin.
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Christians only worship God, but you don't understand that because you don't want to understand. Jesus said he was the son of God but you don't believe it and you don't want to call him a liar so you take it out of the book. You want to say Ishmael was offered as a sacrifice so you replace Isaac with Ishmael. The Koran has been corrupted whether you want to admit it or not.Muslim said:
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Bevlina
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No, I don't believe the koran is corrupted markie ... I just believe it's sort of different .....markie said:
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I can't believe you said that, they can say the bible is corrupt but we can't say the Koran is corrupt.Bevlina said:No, I don't believe the koran is corrupted markie ... I just believe it's sort of different .....
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Bevlina
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No,no ... you don't get what I mean markie ... what I mean is, I don't believe in the Koran at all . I don't believe it was inspired, as for curruption ... I don't want to offend the muslims here, but, .... well, I just don't believe the Koran.
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I knew that is what you meant and I don't want to offend anybody either, but like Azri said on another thread sometimes the truth hurts. It's kind of offensive when they say the bible is corrupt too.Bevlina said:
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markie said:
Jesus never lied about being the son of God. In fact he never claimed he was the son of God. It is your belief that Jesus is part of God or the son of God. Muslims believe he was a richeous prophet, but not the son of God. Statements made in the Bible which are attributed to Jesus are not enough to convince me that he was the son of God. We believe that the Bible is not infalliable as do some Christians. If the Quran is corrupted then bring proof of what you claim. I know for a fact that the Quran is 100% exactly the same as it was during the time of the prophet Muhammad. It is the only holy scripture which has been preserved in it's entirety.
Holy Quran
Chapter 5, Verses 116. And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
117. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.
118. "If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."
Chapter 3, Verse 55. Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
Chapter 4, Verse 159. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-
Chapter 19, Verse 35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
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Bevlina
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Exactly, it does hurt when they say the Bible is corrupt. But, let them go. God is watching continually. We know the truth. They need prayers in order to learn the truth.
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Bevlina
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But, this is from the Koran. I don't believe the Koran. In the Bible God stated "This is my Beloved Son" ... can't you see that?Muslim said:
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Bevlina said:
You do not believe in the Quran. Similarly, I do not believe that the Bible is the true word of God. I believe in the original revelation sent to Jesus. I think someone said in a previous post that Muslims and Christians believe in two different Jesus's. This is true in some ways because we see him as a man and not the son of God. But we still agree on his character and virtue. But There were many men before and after Jesus who were similarly virtuous, that did not make them God.
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Bevlina
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This is true I think. Muslims and Christians believe in 2 different Jesus's. I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God and nothing will deter me from that.Muslim said:
Similarly, you believe in the Qu'ran and won't deter from that. And fair enough.
We can agree to disagree without any hassles.
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Montalban
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Bevlina said:
Sort of different? It was revealed to Muhammed by Satan.
Its text is different from the time of Muhammed
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Text/index.html
It contradicts itself
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/index.html
It's incomplete
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Incoherence/index.html
It insults Jesus by denying his Goodhood, his death and rising. It misunderstands the Trinity.
It is an instruction manual for men who want to dominate women.
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Montalban
Well-Known Member
Bevlina said:
In theory your sentiment is okay; but it is couched in some misunderstandings about tolerence.
I can say "I will tolerate all beliefs". However, if you were to state "I think you should die" then my beliefs which don't impinge upon yours matter not, because yours impinge upon mine.
Likewise Jesus said we should love one another, turn the other cheek etc.
Islam says to slay the unbelievers and to wage a jihad for al-lah in order to make all the world submit to Islam.
Thus your views, noble in sentiment as they are will in fact, whether you like it or not, come into clash with Islam - should Islam prevail.
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Bevlina
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Don't get me wrong Montalban. If my views should clash with that of Islam, I will defend my beliefs. I've done that for longer than you here, and will continue to do so into the future. But, I see no reason for incivility.Montalban said:
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Montalban
Well-Known Member
Bevlina said:
Do you find me un-civil? PM me.
Have you, by the way, read...
164 Jihad Verses in the Koran
Compiled by Yoel Natan
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html
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Montalban
Well-Known Member
The Muslims here have yet to explain why their gave a promise to the Jews, and after sending heaps of prophets to them, suddenly switches to the Arabs.
There is no covenant with Ishmael in the Koran (that I know of). The only thing I know of about a covenant, is in the Bible, and that's not with Ishmael
There is no covenant with Ishmael in the Koran (that I know of). The only thing I know of about a covenant, is in the Bible, and that's not with Ishmael
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originally posted by Muslim
Since Jesus did not come out and point-blank go around yelling out 'I am God', you think that means that we are wrong to understand what we do. Have you ever thought that God is wise in knowing how we humans would think and process data? God is wise to know that going around telling everyone that He is God was not going to all of a sudden, get everyone to like Him and endorse Him and His message. It is the nature of man to disbelieve regardless of what evidence you can show him.
If there are any errors in the Bible, they do not prevent one from understanding the concepts presented nor does it prevent one from comming to know Christ and the Holy Spirit. God does not cease to exist in the Book because you think that somehow He has no power to transcend the barrier of words and communicate to your mind, heart, and soul. What you purport is that without the Book, we can not know God or that God can not show us the meanings of the Bible in its present form or what you think was its original form.
You should consider that no work of text needs to be corrupted to be false. Likewise, no work of text needs to be exactly without a single flaw to be correct.
It is more than a belief. As I have mentioned many times before, Christians have ways of proving that the scriptures are valid. God urges us to claim the many promises He has set forth in the scriptures for us. We practice faith on those scriptrues and we start to see the reality and spiritual truths of the text. At some point, we come to realize that this is not a pragmatic approach. We learn to put more and more trust in God through the scriptres. The words of the Scriptures convinces us more and more that God is exactly as He states and is trustworthy as He is in fulfilling His promises directly to us and as He has to the people of the OT. What I am saying is that all you have is your Qu'ran and a bunch of specualtion, whereas we have the actual scripture and are living testimonies to the validity of the scriptures. You and the rest of your Muslim friends should be humble in critiquing the Bible and try to listen to what is being said instead of going back to the Qu'ran and disrespecting us in the manner that is often seen here on these threads. What we live counts for more than your ideology does. All you have is words. We have acted upon God's words to substantiate what we believe.
That is according to Islam; so, naturally you have to hang on for the ride or you will loose your belief system. The term "Son of God" has a different meaning to a Jew than to a Gentile. It is the reference to the the Messiah of the Jews, and the Jews were well aware of its very important meaning.
Since Jesus did not come out and point-blank go around yelling out 'I am God', you think that means that we are wrong to understand what we do. Have you ever thought that God is wise in knowing how we humans would think and process data? God is wise to know that going around telling everyone that He is God was not going to all of a sudden, get everyone to like Him and endorse Him and His message. It is the nature of man to disbelieve regardless of what evidence you can show him.
I may add that it is not without its merits. We have a Bible that speaks to us and confirms what we put our faith in - God. The Holy Spirit speaks to us and confirms what the Bible says. We have at least two witness to our testimony besides ourselves. That may not be good enough for you, but it means everything to us who take God at His word per Bible.
That same Bible also states that those who do not allow the Holy Spirit to show them the spiritual truths of the Bible are not of God. They deny the Spirit access to teach them. They are set against the Gospel; therefore, they believe in lies and do not love the Father.
Jesus said that you must 1st be born again. He did not say that you have to prove the authencity of the Bible before you could be saved. A relationship with God is built on trust. The fact is that once you allow God's spirit to minister to you the things of the Bible, it will convict you of its truths. You will come to understand what it means and will become more in obedience with it through faith in Christ. Not only have you learned to trust God, He has seen that He can trust you. It is a recprical relationship.
If there are any errors in the Bible, they do not prevent one from understanding the concepts presented nor does it prevent one from comming to know Christ and the Holy Spirit. God does not cease to exist in the Book because you think that somehow He has no power to transcend the barrier of words and communicate to your mind, heart, and soul. What you purport is that without the Book, we can not know God or that God can not show us the meanings of the Bible in its present form or what you think was its original form.
Form a spiritual point of view, it would not matter if the Qu'ran has not changed in one letter. It is still inferior to what the Bible teaches. There is no real comparison. Christ is alive and the Bible is not fake or distorted. The concepts are there even if you want to argue about corruption. God still holds us responsible for what we know. He judges us on that and not what we are not capable of knowing. Has that ever occured to you?
You should consider that no work of text needs to be corrupted to be false. Likewise, no work of text needs to be exactly without a single flaw to be correct.
It is more than a belief. As I have mentioned many times before, Christians have ways of proving that the scriptures are valid. God urges us to claim the many promises He has set forth in the scriptures for us. We practice faith on those scriptrues and we start to see the reality and spiritual truths of the text. At some point, we come to realize that this is not a pragmatic approach. We learn to put more and more trust in God through the scriptres. The words of the Scriptures convinces us more and more that God is exactly as He states and is trustworthy as He is in fulfilling His promises directly to us and as He has to the people of the OT. What I am saying is that all you have is your Qu'ran and a bunch of specualtion, whereas we have the actual scripture and are living testimonies to the validity of the scriptures. You and the rest of your Muslim friends should be humble in critiquing the Bible and try to listen to what is being said instead of going back to the Qu'ran and disrespecting us in the manner that is often seen here on these threads. What we live counts for more than your ideology does. All you have is words. We have acted upon God's words to substantiate what we believe.
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In the Bible God repeats so many times that He will not leave His beloved (Israel). He says that His covenant will last forever with them. Of course, the Muslims will have to say that the Jews tampered with the passages to make themselves look good. The have no proof of that or any other things that they propose.Montalban said:
They are like those who play the lottery and do not win. Somehow they are certain that they will win the next time. And when next time does not produce, they keep saying next time. After a while they believe anyways although deep down in their hearts, know that they are not going to win. But, they have built up this belief and can not let go of it.
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rosenherman
Sparkly rainbow butterfly kitten
But, someone does win. They believe they might be the next to win. Moslems have attained converts and believe they are right. Editing our Holy Book to support their theories was a mistaken effort far in the past.peaceful soul said:
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