Is WATERBAPTISM part of salvation?

[AVBunyan]

Thank you so much for your comments and questions

Brother it was good to read your post – you put some good, systematic thought into it and it is a blessing to hear one talk of the work of Calvary and grace.

You said: "Thank you so much for your comments"
You are more than welcome - but it is I who thanks you for your questions and patience with me.

Now, let’s chat….

"Right - you asked what, and I answered with a what. We are saved by Grace. Who has saved us is a completely different question."
I see what you are saying – I didn’t use “who” for it would have been a dead giveaway. I used what to show that Christ along with the work he did - the work is a “what” and the “Who” is the person – you are right but I trust you see what I was trying to say – the “Who” and His work did the saving.

[font=&quot]“I agree with what your preacher has said - our belief cannot save us. Neither can our repentance, our confession or even baptism. The only thing that can save us is the grace of God.”[/font]

I am curious – you say the grace of God and but there are conditions (repentance and baptism)? Does this not put some responsibility on us now thus making our effort a part of the work? Just trying to reason with you here.


“After having said this, I think that there is an important point that needs to be made. While I am saved by God's grace, I cannot be saved without believing.”


“Basically, as far as I can understand it, all of these things that I've mentioned so far (belief, repentance, baptism and confession) are conditions that God has placed on the receiving of His grace. One is not saved because they do these things, but God will not give His grace to those who have not responded as the gospel says they should. Does this make sense?”


Not sure – I think I can see what you are trying to convey. You say we are saved by grace yet we still have to meet some conditions. Question: What if you truly believe (Acts 16:30,31) but don’t get baptized? And the repentance – if you truly believe, is that not repentance in itself for what you are saying is, “My way of self-righteousness is wrong and I turn to you, Lord.”


“I agree with what you've said, but I think that it's slightly incomplete…this alone is not what saves us….but He arose…the resurrection of Christ.”


Yes, I understand the resurrection part for that is part of the gospel (I Cor. 15:1-5).


“Colossians 2:12 states that through our baptism just as Christ was raised through the working of God, so are we.”


Hear is where we may disagree – I believe that this baptism is the one spiritual baptism of Eph. 4:5. I do not believe water is connected with the verses, especially Col. 2:11,12. Col. 2:11,12 is teaching us that this operation of God put us into the body of Christ.


“I find nothing in the things that I do which will earn me praise from God or somehow manage to justify me before Him. I am truly an unprofitable servant and unworthy of my Master, and all that I can do is that which He has commanded me to do. Does this justify me? No, because I was merely doing what He has commanded of me.”

[font=&quot]Thank you for that humility – for I am humbled by your confession – pray for me in this area.
[/font]

[font=&quot]Now, let’s go somewhere that may be difficult – I trust you will stay with me and continue to use your reasoning skills which you have already demonstrated you have, by God’s work in your life. Here we go………..[/font]

You said:


“I cannot be saved without believing.”


Let’s look at the scriptures and see what they say about a lost man:

Jesus said, Let the dead bury the dead. Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Eph. 2:1 says the lost are dead. “who were dead in trespasses and sins:”

Rom. 3:11 says, There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 3:12 says, They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

II Cor. 4:6 says they are blinded.

We see here that the lost man may have flesh that is alive but he is dead – he is spiritually dead. As far as God is concerned he is dead to God.

Now, question for you is,
How can a dead man believe?
(Again, review the above scriptures prayerfully and let me know what your answer is - thanks).


Strange as it appears I am heading somewhere and I trust you will get a blessing from it for it is associated with us believing and repenting and grace. My intent is for one to more fully see the wondrous work of God’s grace. Not saying you dont' see it already - just trying to reason out loud here and maybe there is someone else reading this that might need it.

As always, it was good chatting – I know I can be trying and a tough pill to swallow – bear with me. Thanks.

 

[StreetPreacher]

Easy. Water baptism has nothing to do with your salvation.

 

[greeker57married]

AVBunyan vbmenu_register("postmenu_1749107", true);

. Brother - I don't like to argue - but this is a forum. I don't spend 2 seconds with the average believer about water baptism - most saints today can't even give a clear testimony of salvation that is based upon the scriptures so I certinaly don't confuse their minds with water bapstism - but this is a forum and you are a pastor. It obsivouly got under your skin a bit and if I crossed the line then I apologize.

2. Yes, the death, burial and resurrectio is in Acts 2 but not for sins. Peter didn't know I Cor. 15:1-5. He was still under John's message of repentance - the issue in Acts 2 was the same message in the gospels, Jesus is the messiah. Nobody at that time knew that Christ had died for their individual sins like we know that today - this truth was not known until the LOrd showed Paul and then Paul showed Peter. The "repent" there is referring to the Jews repenting of their "murder" of Jesus not for their sins in general. I didn't get saved by Acts 2:38 - I got saved by what Christ did at Calvary - PETER DID NOT KNOW THAT YET - Because many do not see that they make Acts 2:38 the plan of salvation today.

3. I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing - I'm trying to get people to see that the gospels is not where we get our doctrine for today. When Jesus said, "all things whatsoever I have commanded you:" - he said "all things" and the word "commanded" is past tense. You, my dear brother are relegating it to new believer truths only.

4. Brother, look at what the enuch had to believe: "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." - the issue was the same one of the gopsels and the one in Acts 2 - "Do you believe Jesus is the messiah and the son of God?" - Brother, our message is not that Jesus is the son of God - it is Christ died for our sins - there is a big difference. Yes, the gospel includes Christ the son of God, of course - but at the time of Acts 8:37 it was Jesus the son of God being the issue not dying for sins - that came later. Sorry - I know you don't see this but I can't make it any clearer.

5. I will be real nice here - I don't refer to the Greek. - as you can tell I stick with the 1611 AV solely. In I Cor. 10 Moses and Israel were not immersed.

6. I can understand that and I don't blame you.

My aim - to point people to Paul and the truth of the resurrected Saviour and to get people to see grace and not a gospel mixed with grace and Jewish traditions and law. I believe in liberty and grace - I believe Eph. 4:1, But a man cannot work out "Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called" - if he is getting his main doctrine from the gospels and early Acts.

Dear AVBunyan,

I appologize that I got offeneded. I am glad to discuss Scripture with you. I believe Dear brother with all due repect you ae making a mistake comparmentalizing the gospels and Acts from the rest of the New Testament. Definitely there are some historical situations in the Gospels and Acts that don't exist today. But to say that the gospel Peter was preaching was different that today or the rest of the New Testament I cannot agree with. He was preaching the same gospel that is preached today, of course it is in the context of Jesus being the Messiah the son of God. He still told them how they could be save the same we are are saved.

Act 2:21 And it shall be, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord

Clearly it is the same message, that is that salvation is through Jesus Christ who die for your sins. Yes being not long after the Crucifiction of Christ, The message was geared for the Jewish hearer to understand that the person that was crucified was the Messiah. "that your sins may be blotted out clearly shows that the death of Christ for our sins was implied.

Moses and Israel being Baptized, comments by A. T. Robertson:
Co 10:2 -

Were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea (pantes eis ton Mōusēn ebaptisanto en tēi nephelēi kai en tēi thalassēi). The picture is plain enough. The mystic cloud covered the people while the sea rose in walls on each side of them as they marched across. B K L P read ebaptisanto (causative first aorist middle, got themselves baptized) while Aleph A C D have ebaptisthēsan (first aorist passive, were baptized). The immersion was complete for all of them in the sea around them and the cloud over them. Moses was their leader then as Christ is now and so Paul uses eis concerning the relation of the Israelites to Moses as he does of our baptism in relation to Christ (Word Pictures in The New Testament by A.T. Robertson)

God Bless
John

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

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. But to say that the gospel Peter was preaching was different that today or the rest of the New Testament I cannot agree with. He was preaching the same gospel that is preached today, of course it is in the context of Jesus being the Messiah the son of God. God Bless
John

what Gospel[19+ just in galations] of Paul's are you refering too?

gospel means good news.


The Gospel concerning the Kingdom from the heavens
The Gospel of the happy God 1 tim 1:9-11

to name a few gospels

 

[AVBunyan]

what Gospel[19+ just in galations] of Paul's are you refering too? gospel means good news.
The Gospel concerning the Kingdom from the heavens
The Gospel of the happy God 1 tim 1:9-11
to name a few gospels

The gospel (you are right - good news) in the Old Testament was, for ex.

To Noah, "build a boat, get in and you are safe."

To the OT Jew under the law - "Sacrifice an animal and I (God) will overlook your sins."

To the Jew in the Gospels, "Believe that Jesus is your Messiah and the Son of God and you will get into the kingdom, and by the way - get baptized to show you believe the message."

To the Jew at Pentecost, "Repent of your murdering your messiah and... Believe that Jesus is your Messiah and the Son of God and you will get into the kingdom and by the way - get baptized to show you believe the message and you will get remission of your sins (Acts 3:19)."

Paul's "good news" for us today, "Jesus died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day."

God never changes, and it is always faith in God's message but....God's message changes - see above.

That was a brief overview but I trust I've answered your question on which gospel. I believe Paul's gospel is the message for us today and it is different than John the Baptist's and Peter's at Pentecost.

Nice chatting with you

 

[Heartman]

There are so many different theories and practices in regard to baptism that it is had to take advice from others. Better to go to God and His Word and make up your mind for yourself.

Heartman

 

[greeker57married]

what Gospel[19+ just in galations] of Paul's are you refering too?

gospel means good news.


The Gospel concerning the Kingdom from the heavens
The Gospel of the happy God 1 tim 1:9-11

to name a few gospels

A BretherninChrist,

There is only one gospel, which is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

1Co 15:1 Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand,

1Co 15:2 by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain.

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1Co 15:4 and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scripture

G2098

εὐαγγέλιον

euaggelion

Thayer Definition:

1) a reward for good tidings

2) good tidings

2a) the glad tidings of the kingdom of God soon to be set up, and subsequently also of Jesus the Messiah, the founder of this kingdom. After the death of Christ, the term comprises also the preaching of (concerning) Jesus Christ as having suffered death on the cross to procure eternal salvation for the men in the kingdom of God, but as restored to life and exalted to the right hand of God in heaven, thence to return in majesty to consummate the kingdom of God

2b) the glad tidings of salvation through Christ

2c) the proclamation of the grace of God manifest and pledged in Christ

2d) the gospel

2e) as the messianic rank of Jesus was proved by his words, his deeds, and his death, the narrative of the sayings, deeds, and death of Jesus Christ came to be called the gospel or glad tidings

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed

The Saving Gospel of Jesus Christ.

God Bless
John

 

[RhetorTheo]

AVBunyan, you appear to be a Universalist. That is, that everyone goes to heaven, that salvation is universal. Jesus died for all our sins, therefore we all go to heaven. That's not exactly an orthodox doctrine.

 

[AVBunyan]

AVBunyan, you appear to be a Universalist. That is, that everyone goes to heaven, that salvation is universal. Jesus died for all our sins, therefore we all go to heaven. That's not exactly an orthodox doctrine.

My soul - where did you ever get that from? Not upset - just taken back - I am in no way a Universalist - if I have written something that makes it appear that way then by all means let me know and I'll correct it - just do a search on my name and yo will see what I believe.

Thanks for your comments - Later and may God bless

 

[AVBunyan]

I appologize that I got offeneded. I am glad to discuss Scripture with you.

Thank you for your response. The fact that you would even apologize is a rare thing in forums these days - it speaks well of your Christian character and God's work in your life. I'd love to chat more - right now I will look at your post - and seek to respond - I have to go out of town for a week of training (leaving my family behind - please pray for a safe journey and protection for my wife and 10 children!!!! Gasp!!!!). I will get back with you so we can discuss it some more if you like.

I think it is very imprtant to distinguish between the messages delivered by the different apostles for I believe people combining of these together (Peter and Paul's) has caused great confusion.

Later and thanks again for your response May God bless!

 

[Heartman]

Are there actually universalists in these forums? I thought they were gone from the scene years ago!

 

[Tawhano]

AVBunyan said:
What are you counting on to get you to heaven?

Good question, although I don’t see what that has to do with what I posted, here is my answer. Like you I am counting on that Christ indeed paid the price that made it possible for all to enter into the rest of God. I am counting on that the words I read are truly from God and that God has revealed Himself to me through the Holy Ghost. I am counting on that it was indeed Christ knocking and it was Him I opened the door to when I entered into the covenant.

 

[Tawhano]

AVBunyan said:
I am curious – you say the grace of God and but there are conditions (repentance and baptism)? Does this not put some responsibility on us now thus making our effort a part of the work? Just trying to reason with you here.

If we had no part in our salvation then why was Peter’s answer to this:

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?

This:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Instead of “Nothing, there is nothing you can do Christ did it all for you”.

If we had no part in our salvation then why was this written:

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Yes we are saved by Grace but how does one partake in this grace? You have to enter into and keep the covenant to partake of this grace.

1Corinthians 15:1-2 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

If we had no part in our salvation then why was Peter’s answer to this:

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?

HS working with this man pulling back the blind from the prince of the world

This:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Instead of “Nothing, there is nothing you can do Christ did it all for you”.

If we had no part in our salvation then why was this written:

In act what where these Jews believing in about Jesus Christ?

I think alot like in act 8:37 believing that JC was the Son of God

act 2:41 Then they that gladly recieved [this is belief..romans 4:5 and 1 cor 12:13 why this verse romans 8:9] his word were baptized [obedience ...lets go to john 15:5c...for without me[jc] ye can do nothing.....

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

this fear is not of punishment like the Jews in the OT since God is there King and the fear of death was what motivated them......

As we fear losing of are relationship for a period with are daddy Gal 4:6-7

whats the point you may say not much different this is huge

Yes we are saved by Grace but how does one partake in this grace? You have to enter into and keep the covenant to partake of this grace.

1Corinthians 15:1-2 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 cor 15:16 for if the dead rise not, then is not christ raised 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins

Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not; but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness 6 Even as David also described the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.

there are 4 different faiths

there are 3 different salvations...past[intial] , present[christian life], and future[for us the Rapture] others believers [1 cor 15:23] at the second coming

please make sure the verses are being in context ..please do word study with strongs

peace in God

 

[AVBunyan]

Good question, although I don’t see what that has to do with what I posted, here is my answer.

I did not have your post in mind specifically - I was asking a general question because of the big deal people were making out of water baptism being essential for one's salvation. I was trying to show that if one is trusting what Christ did at Calvary then it couldn't be Christ plus water baptism - it had to be one or the other but not both - Christ plus water baptism is a works salvation.

Later

 

[Tawhano]

Although it is true that works of the law cannot save us or justify us, we are taught that faith without works is dead.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Baptism is the work of faith not the work of the law.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 3:27-28 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

I asked this question back in post #174

What saves us? Grace. Is everyone saved then? No. How does one get saved by this grace? By entering into the new covenant that God has made with us. How do you enter into the new covenant?

Nobody answered because to do something to enter into the covenant would be works and that has become a four letter word somehow. The answer is this:

Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

We enter into the covenant by faith. Dead faith? Nope, but by faith we act upon the word of God and do something. Not in keeping laws but to step out in faith, to repent and be baptized.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

QUOTE=Tawhano Although it is true that works of the law cannot save us or justify us, we are taught that faith without works is dead.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:18 yea a man may say, thou hast faith, and I have works: show me your faith without works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

YET God says

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justified the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

2 timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

Baptism is the work of faith not the work of the law.

Does this Get us out of doing ......Heavens no when we look at titus 3:5 we have done works of righteousness but that does not save us

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 3:27-28 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

I asked this question back in post #174


Nobody answered because to do something to enter into the covenant would be works and that has become a four letter word somehow. The answer is this:

Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

We enter into the covenant by faith. Dead faith? Nope, but by faith we act upon the word of God and do something. Not in keeping laws but to step out in faith, to repent and be baptized.


Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works

We are called to works but not nessessary for are salvation as 1 cor 7:20-24

 

[greeker57married]

Dear Tawhano,

Although it is true that works of the law cannot save us or justify us, we are taught that faith without works is dead.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Baptism is the work of faith not the work of the law.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 3:27-28 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are not saved by our works, but by Grace, God's unmerited love through trusting, relying faith. But we are save unto good works that is once we are born again of the spirit then fruit and works will be produced, that is the evidence of salvtion. James is in agreement with Paul, genuine faith will produce works.

God Bless
John

 

[Blue Bleeds Thru]

It isn't Christ + baptism ...that is a poor way of looking at it...but rather, baptism is an instrument that Christ uses to communicate His grace

 

[Blue Bleeds Thru]

It isn't Christ + baptism .... The two are not mutually exclusive due to the fact that in baptism we are united to Him in his death and resurrection