Is WATERBAPTISM part of salvation?

[thereselittleflower]

Why must we be baptized?


What happens if we are not baptized?



Peace in Him!

 

[Ben johnson]

Why must we be baptized?

Peter says "an appeal to God for a clear conscience". Verses like Acts 22:16 are often misunderstood; it is not the WATER that washes away our sins, but the calling-on-His-name.

What happens if we are not baptized?

The question should be, "What verse says we will be CONDEMNED if we are NOT water-baptized?"

 

[pmarquette]

Some of it is semantics , some of it is semantics , some are basic tenants of the Nicean creed .....

Both Catholic and Protestant require baptism and confirmation
Both recognize them as what Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about
being " born again of water and spirit "

One says the water and words cleanse us from the sin of Adam ;
confirmation and the sacraments empowers us to go and do

Other say that it is an outward sign of an inward change ( 3 John 1.2 )
that the sinner's prayer ( Romans 10.8-9 ), repentance recocile / restore / cleanses us
and by the laying on of hands ( Acts 19.5 ) is the Holy Spirit imparted

both bespeak a change in heart , a fellowship with Jesus , the need for change
within us ( sanctification ) , though we differ in means , method , we agree
in the broad application ...

 

[aggie03]

I don't know about all this Greek - I'm a simple-minded kind of fella.

Here! Here! While having extensive knowledge in Greek and Aramaic and ancient Hebrew are wonderful things, and I applaud those with that knowledge (in particular Mr. Thayer and Mr. Strong), I do not believe that it is necessary to understand what the Scriptures teach.

For those of you who have been discussing the Greek please in no way see that comment as my asking you to stop. I appreciate your posts very much; it never hurts to learn .

The purpose of water baptism is explained in:

John 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

I do not believe that this passage deals with the baptism that we are currently discussing, though it most certainly does deal with a water baptism. I believe that the Scriptures teach that there are at least two different baptisms in water, only one of which, however, Christians are now commanded to partake in.

In the verse that you've quoted, AVBunyan, I believe it's very important to keep in mind who is the person that was talking. In this particular instance, it was John the baptist. He came baptizing with water. That's right. This was to fulfill what had been written about him by the prophet Isaiah:

Isaiah 40:3 ASV

The voice of one that crieth, Prepare ye in the wilderness the way of Jehovah; make level in the desert a highway for our God.

This is what John was doing, making straight the way of the Lord. Also, when we consider everything that the Scriptures teach on this, we can find that his baptism was for a particular purpose.

Acts 19:1-5 ASV

And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper country came to Ephesus, and found certain disciples: (2) and he said unto them, Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye believed? And they said unto him, Nay, we did not so much as hear whether the Holy Spirit was given. (3) And he said, Into what then were ye baptized? And they said, Into John's baptism. (4) And Paul said, John baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people that they should believe on him that should come after him, that is, on Jesus. (5) And when they heard this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

I believe that this passage is clear in its indication that there is a difference in being baptized with the baptism of John, which was of repentance, and being baptized in the name of Jesus. If they were the same then there would have been no need for the disciples in Ephesus to be baptized again, but they were, so there is .

Real simple - in the gospels, dealing with Israel - Paraphrase - "Do you believe Christ is your messiah? You do? Then get baptized to show you believe it."

I don't think that this is what the gospels teach at all. I would ask that rather than paraphrasing, if you don't mind, if you would show me an exact place in the Scriptures where it says that baptism in the name of Jesus is for nothing other than to show one's faith.

That's it. Don't add anything else to it - leave the verse alone and believe it as it stands

I don't think that we can leave it alone, per se, but by that I don't mean that we should try and change what it means . I think that we have to consider the sum of God's word in all things, for the sum of God's word is Truth (Psalm 119:160). We must consider what we think a certain verse teached within the context of the entire Bible - only then can we come to truly understand the meaning.

Having said that, I agree with what the verse teaches. John the baptist came to prepare the way for Christ, and his baptism was of repentance. Again, though, this is not the baptism that we are discussing.

Now somebody show me where John's baptism changed meaning to mean:

I agree with you that we can't change what John's baptism meant, or what it was for. If we do that we aren't being honest with the word of God.

However, for expediency's sake, I am going to consider the rest of this particular section of your post as if it was referring to the baptism that is commanded by Christ (Mark 16:16, Matthew 28:19).

1. Get baptized in water to be saved.

I don't think that anyone is saved because they are baptized. I believe that we are saved by the grace of God, through faith. This, however, necessarily means that when God says something we will believe Him, and when He tells us to do something, that we will do it.

We are told be baptized for the remission of our sins (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16). We are also told to repent (Luke 13: 3, 5) so that we might be holy as God is holy. We should confess Christ as Lord because of who He is and what He has done. We should live our lives faithfully until death because that's what God deserves simply because of who He is (Revelation 2:10). All of these things God has said are necessary in order for us to be saved - but none of them earn, or merit, our salvation. We are saved by grace! The concern is then that God only bestows His grace on those who have responded to it in the manner that He has said is necessary.

This leads to a false salvation - Gal. 1:8,9.

I don't think this is referring directly to someone who is saved falsely, but rather to those who try and distort the gospel. You do, however, make a very valid point...there seems to be two different versions that are being discussed here - one is right, the other is wrong. That's the only way it can be. SO (I made it big on purpose ) there is something that we MUST do, something very serious. We must consider these two choices and approve only what is excellent that we might be sincere and be void of offence (Philippians 1:10), so that we might work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). We also need to pray without ceasing (1 Thessalonians 5:17) and study diligently the word of God (2 Timothy 2:15). I sincerely pray that everyone here will join in this study with the mind and heart that God should be proven right, even if that means we are wrong.

2. Get baptized because it pictures the death, burial, and resurrection (sounds good but can't find it in scripture).

Romans 6:3-9 ASV

Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? (4) We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection; (6) knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin; (7) for he that hath died is justified from sin. (8) But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him; (9) knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death no more hath dominion over him.

Colossians 2:12 ASV

having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

I believe that these verses do support that.

This leads to people making a doctrine that is not there thus putting people into bondage. For many people are taught one must get baptised after salvation or they are disobedient, etc. Shameful to put saints under this.

I don't believe that being obedient to the things that God has said are necessary in order for us to be saved is putting someone under bondage. Telling them they must follow requirements that God never mentions? Yes. But being obedient? No.

The two above modern meanings for baptism have caused great confusion and in some case even damnation of souls for those who are trusting in water to save them.

I agree there is a lot of confusion, perhaps maybe even about what is meant by saying that baptism is necessary for us to be saved. Faith is necessary for us to be saved - but it is no my faith that saves me. Repentance is necessary for us to be saved - but it is not my repentance that saves me. Baptism, likewise, for the remission of sins is necessary for me to be saved, but it is not this baptism that saves me. I am saved by the grace of God.

Just believe the verse John 1:31 - it is so simple.

Yes, we must believe John 1:31, but we must believe it is its proper context and with careful consideration of what the rest of the Scriptures teach. We have to consider the sum of the word (Psalm 119:160) or we will have an incomplete understanding.

Your thoughts

I've posted a few of them . I look forward to hearing back from you, AVBunyan, or anyone else who has any comments to add.

 

[Ben johnson]

both bespeak a change in heart , a fellowship with Jesus , the need for change within us ( sanctification ) , though we differ in means , method , we agree in the broad application ...

You are wise, Grasshopper!

 

[greeker57married]

Dear thereselittleflower,

Simpl;y put, Baptism is our idenification with Christ after we are saved or born again.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Baptism is a picture of our experience with Christ when we repent of sin and trust him as Savior and Lord. At that moment we ar crucified with Christ, we die with Christ and are raised (spiritual life) to walk in newness of life. Baptism is a picture of this. As we go under the water it shows we have died with Christ as we are raised out of the water it shows we have been raised with Christ to walk in new life. It idenifys us with Christ. immersion is the proper biblical mode of baptism because it pictures the salvation experience. Why should we be baptized? Christ commands it. It is the first step of obedience after we are saved. It is our salvation testimony, that we now belong to Christ if one is Saved. I am Southern Baptist.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Act 2:41 They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls.

GodBless,
John

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Why must we be baptized?


What happens if we are not baptized?



Peace in Him!

Romans 8:9b Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His

How do we get the Spirit .....Romans 4:5 happens upon belief 1 cor 12:13

 

[AVBunyan]

1. Simplly put, Baptism is our idenification with Christ after we are saved or born again. Baptism is a picture of our experience with Christ when we repent of sin and trust him as Savior and Lord.

2. Why should we be baptized? Christ commands it.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

3. It is the first step of obedience after we are saved.

4. It is our salvation testimony, that we now belong to Christ if one is Saved. I am Southern Baptist.

Thanks greeker for your post - I know you are attemtping to explain a rough issue. I also belivee a man is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ and baptism couldn't saved a dead horse. But with that people have taken a gospel truth and shoved it into the church age and as a result countless saints have been worried about baptism ever since.

1. This sounds good but what we (Baptists) have done is made a doctrine out of it. As I mentioned before John 1:31 gives us the purpose of baptism - to manifest Christ to Israel. What we have done is carried that over and made it a doctrine of identification in the church age. There is no scripture commanding us today to be baptised in order to picture an experience. Makes for good preaching and illustrations but poor doctrine when compared with Paul in Colossians.

2. Be careful here - if you take what Jesus said at face value for the saint toda then you had better be prepared to keep the law also. I've mentioned this before but it has fallen on deaf ears. Matt. 28 sounds good but if you he told to observe all things - Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:- Let's go look at some of those things - he did say all things did he not? Ok go to - Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." Christ just told someone to obey the Pharisees in regards to the OT law. Are you going to obey Jesus in Matt. 28 then you must obey him in Matt. 23 - you just can't take baptism and leave the rest out. Can you see what kind of mess one can get into by just grabbing at verses that deal with baptism and applying them to this age of grace. The baptism in Matt. 28 is still the one John spoke of in John 1:31 - nothing has changed.

3. There is not scriputre to support this whatsoever - this is a Baptist "doctrine".

4. There is not scriputre to support this whatsoever - this is a Baptist "doctrine".

Brother - we are told to walk by faith and not by faith - Paul tells us in Colossians that the outward things are gone.

Understand, I try not to make a big issue with baptism after salvation for as long as a man is not trusting in the baptism to save or add to his salvation I don't panic or make an issue out of it but this is a forum.

Where I get concerned is that new saints are told they must get baptised after salvation or they are missing some testimony or identificiation thus it raises doubts in the new saint. This I and concerned with. The only baptism that counts in this age is the spiritual baptism of Col 2:11,12.

I know the above is a tough pill to swallow and goes against most Baptist beliefs but I am a Baptist but I have to be faithful to scripture first and then denomination.

Your thoughts?

 

[Ben johnson]

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Rom6:3-4 "BAPTISM" has NOTHING to do with water. We are IMMERSED in Jesus, by FAITH --- not by water.

"WATER" in Jn3:5 has NOTHING to do with waterbaptism --- as explained by Jn3:6. "HUDOR" --- water as the FUNDAMENTAL ELEMENT; here, water = flesh.

"Baptism in the Spirit" Matt3:11 has NOTHING to do with waterbaptism. We are IMMERSED in the Spirit, we are IMMERSED in Jesus --- by FAITH, not by water.

Cornelius' family & friends were saved, BEFORE they were waterbaptized. Acts10:47

 

[greeker57married]

Thanks greeker for your post - I know you are attemtping to explain a rough issue. I also belivee a man is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ and baptism couldn't saved a dead horse. But with that people have taken a gospel truth and shoved it into the church age and as a result countless saints have been worried about baptism ever since.

1. This sounds good but what we (Baptists) have done is made a doctrine out of it. As I mentioned before John 1:31 gives us the purpose of baptism - to manifest Christ to Israel. What we have done is carried that over and made it a doctrine of identification in the church age. There is no scripture commanding us today to be baptised in order to picture an experience. Makes for good preaching and illustrations but poor doctrine when compared with Paul in Colossians.

2. Be careful here - if you take what Jesus said at face value for the saint toda then you had better be prepared to keep the law also. I've mentioned this before but it has fallen on deaf ears. Matt. 28 sounds good but if you he told to observe all things - Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:- Let's go look at some of those things - he did say all things did he not? Ok go to - Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." Christ just told someone to obey the Pharisees in regards to the OT law. Are you going to obey Jesus in Matt. 28 then you must obey him in Matt. 23 - you just can't take baptism and leave the rest out. Can you see what kind of mess one can get into by just grabbing at verses that deal with baptism and applying them to this age of grace. The baptism in Matt. 28 is still the one John spoke of in John 1:31 - nothing has changed.

3. There is not scriputre to support this whatsoever - this is a Baptist "doctrine".

4. There is not scriputre to support this whatsoever - this is a Baptist "doctrine".

Brother - we are told to walk by faith and not by faith - Paul tells us in Colossians that the outward things are gone.

Understand, I try not to make a big issue with baptism after salvation for as long as a man is not trusting in the baptism to save or add to his salvation I don't panic or make an issue out of it but this is a forum.

Where I get concerned is that new saints are told they must get baptised after salvation or they are missing some testimony or identificiation thus it raises doubts in the new saint. This I and concerned with. The only baptism that counts in this age is the spiritual baptism of Col 2:11,12.

I know the above is a tough pill to swallow and goes against most Baptist beliefs but I am a Baptist but I have to be faithful to scripture first and then denomination.

I don't sgree with your analysis of JOhn 1:31 and Baptism. John Was saying that he baptized with water and that there was one coming mighter than he who ould baptize wwith Holy Spirit referring to the coming day of Pentecost. Yes I believe that Roman's 6:4 teaches spiritual baaptism but that does not negate believer's baptism. In Acts 2:41 those who gladly recieved the word of the gospel were water baptized. True water baptism does not save anybody. But it is clearly taught in the New Testament and Christ command his disciples to baptize new converts. You are not a Baptist in your doctrine. I believe what I believe is not Baptist doctrine but Bible doctrine. Clearly it is a picture of salvation. If we have any Baptist doctrine we need to get rid of it!

 

[AVBunyan]

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I don't sgree with your analysis of JOhn 1:31 and Baptism. John Was saying that he baptized with water and that there was one coming mighter than he who ould baptize wwith Holy Spirit referring to the coming day of Pentecost. Yes I believe that Roman's 6:4 teaches spiritual baaptism but that does not negate believer's baptism. In Acts 2:41 those who gladly recieved the word of the gospel were water baptized. True water baptism does not save anybody. But it is clearly taught in the New Testament and Christ command his disciples to baptize new converts. You are not a Baptist in your doctrine. I believe what I believe is not Baptist doctrine but Bible doctrine. Clearly it is a picture of salvation. If we have any Baptist doctrine we need to get rid of it!

John 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

What is the "therefore" there for? He is saying, "I came baptizing with water to manifest Christ to ISRAEL." There is not reference to blood-bought believers anywhere in the passage. There is no reference to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for he had not died yet. The issue was, "Believe Christ is the messiah." The message today is Christ died for our sins, etc. (I Cor. 15:1-5). In Acts 2:41 you are still under a Jewish setting with no body of Christ revealed. The baptism there is still John's - see Acts 19. The issue in Acts 2 is still, "Do you believe Christ is the messiah?" Look at Peter's message - it had nothing to do with I Cor. 15:1-5.

If you want to go on believing Jewish doctrines and customs then fine. We both agree baptism doesn't save. Just don't put saints under condemnation because they haven't been baptized under a Jewish, kingdom age doctrine. There is one baptism today and that is found in Eph. 4:5 and Col. 2:11,12.

By the way - you never answered the issue of Matt. 28 with Matt. 23 - are you going to obey Christ in all things and not just baptism that was connected with the Jews?

You are right - regarding baptism "I am are not a Baptist in doctrine".

By the way - let's really stir it up - show me where John;s baptism is immersion since the OT dealt with "washings".

Nice chatting with you - your thoughts?

 

[greeker57married]

Dear AB Bunyan,

It is clear from your post and the mascott picture on your post that all you want to do is argue. If Iam Baptist by conviction and you are not. So What, that is perfectly fine. You are reading into thes4e pasage something that is not there and ignoring the truth that is there.
What is the "therefore" there for? He is saying, "I came baptizing with water to manifest Christ to ISRAEL." There is not reference to blood-bought believers anywhere in the passage. There is no reference to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for he had not died yet. The issue was, "Believe Christ is the messiah." The message today is Christ died for our sins, etc. (I Cor. 15:1-5

I agree that John the Baptist ministry was to manifest to Israel the presence of the Messiah. Anyone who has a knowledge of the Gospel of John should know that. But that does not negate baptism. John's baptism was by water and it was a baptism of repentance. His water baptism was a symbol of spiritual baptism. But that does not negate water baptism.


Act 2:23 him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay:

Act 2:24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Act 2:25 For David saith concerning him, I beheld the Lord always before my face; For he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

Act 2:26 Therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; Moreover my flesh also shall dwell in hope:

Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul unto Hades, Neither wilt thou give thy Holy One to see corruption.

Act 2:28 Thou madest known unto me the ways of life; Thou shalt make me full of gladness with thy countenance.

Act 2:29 Brethren, I may say unto you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us unto this day.

Act 2:30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins he would set one upon his throne;

Act 2:31 he foreseeing this spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruptio

ct 2:32 This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

Act 2:34 For David ascended not into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Act 2:35 Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet.

Act 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do?

Act 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit

I thank if you read these verses you will clearly see that the death, burial and resurrection are preached by Peter, the same gospel of 1Cor. 15:1-5. Which I am sure you already know.

You are just arguing for the sake of arguing, you know as well as I do that Matt.28:18-20 does not say you must obey all things. But teach new believers' all things. We are to teach and preach the whole counsel of God.

If you want to beieve that spiritual Baptism is the only baptism that is your right.

You say water baptism is not for today what about the Ethoipian Eunuch:

Act 8:36 And as they went on the way, they came unto a certain water; and the eunuch saith, Behold, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

By the way the Greek Word baptizo means to dip, plung under water, immerse.

This is the last response ai will give to your post because you just want to argue.

 

[AVBunyan]

Dear AB Bunyan,

1. It is clear from your post and the mascott picture on your post that all you want to do is argue.
2. Act 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit
I thank if you read these verses you will clearly see that the death, burial and resurrection are preached by Peter, the same gospel of 1Cor. 15:1-5. Which I am sure you already know

3. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing, you know as well as I do that Matt.28:18-20 does not say you must obey all things. But teach new believers' all things.

4. You say water baptism is not for today what about the Ethoipian Eunuch:

Act 8:36 And as they went on the way, they came unto a certain water; and the eunuch saith, Behold, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

5. By the way the Greek Word baptizo means to dip, plung under water, immerse.

6. This is the last response ai will give to your post because you just want to argue.

1. Brother - I don't like to argue - but this is a forum. I don't spend 2 seconds with the average believer about water baptism - most saints today can't even give a clear testimony of salvation that is based upon the scriptures so I certinaly don't confuse their minds with water bapstism - but this is a forum and you are a pastor. It obsivouly got under your skin a bit and if I crossed the line then I apologize.

2. Yes, the death, burial and resurrectio is in Acts 2 but not for sins. Peter didn't know I Cor. 15:1-5. He was still under John's message of repentance - the issue in Acts 2 was the same message in the gospels, Jesus is the messiah. Nobody at that time knew that Christ had died for their individual sins like we know that today - this truth was not known until the LOrd showed Paul and then Paul showed Peter. The "repent" there is referring to the Jews repenting of their "murder" of Jesus not for their sins in general. I didn't get saved by Acts 2:38 - I got saved by what Christ did at Calvary - PETER DID NOT KNOW THAT YET - Because many do not see that they make Acts 2:38 the plan of salvation today.

3. I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing - I'm trying to get people to see that the gospels is not where we get our doctrine for today. When Jesus said, "all things whatsoever I have commanded you:" - he said "all things" and the word "commanded" is past tense. You, my dear brother are relegating it to new believer truths only.

4. Brother, look at what the enuch had to believe: "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." - the issue was the same one of the gopsels and the one in Acts 2 - "Do you believe Jesus is the messiah and the son of God?" - Brother, our message is not that Jesus is the son of God - it is Christ died for our sins - there is a big difference. Yes, the gospel includes Christ the son of God, of course - but at the time of Acts 8:37 it was Jesus the son of God being the issue not dying for sins - that came later. Sorry - I know you don't see this but I can't make it any clearer.

5. I will be real nice here - I don't refer to the Greek. - as you can tell I stick with the 1611 AV solely. In I Cor. 10 Moses and Israel were not immersed.

6. I can understand that and I don't blame you.

My aim - to point people to Paul and the truth of the resurrected Saviour and to get people to see grace and not a gospel mixed with grace and Jewish traditions and law. I believe in liberty and grace - I believe Eph. 4:1, But a man cannot work out "Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called" - if he is getting his main doctrine from the gospels and early Acts.

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:

My door is still open for you if you desire.

May God bless you.

 

[Tawhano]

Ben johnson said:
It seems we are left with only two choices:
2. THey were NOT YET SAVED 'cause they hadn't been DIPPED, the Holy Spirit INDWELLS THE UNSAVED.
1. Waterbaptism ACCOMPANIES salvation; preceeds it (Acts8:16) or SUCCEEDS it (Acts10:47).

There is a third choice you left out. Salvation comes at the end. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a sign that one is saved but that he is sealed with a guarantee that ‘if’ he remains steadfast he will be saved at the end.

Ephesians 1:12-14 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

I’m not trying to change the topic here, just laying the groundwork on what I am about to say. The entire debate of whether or not you need to be baptized to be saved is based upon the belief that one is saved when he performs some act, whether it is believing, confessing or whatever. We are to work out our salvation we are told so how is it possible to work out something you already have? We have the hope of salvation not we have salvation. I see it as a simple matter that the scriptures are very clear we should be baptized regardless of your understanding of whether it is essential to salvation or not. Ask yourself why are we commanded to be baptized?

What saves us? Grace. Is everyone saved then? No. How does one get saved by this grace? By entering into the new covenant that God has made with us. How do you enter into the new covenant?

Acts 2:37-39 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Forget the distraction about the good pigmy in the rain forest of South America who never heard the word. Do you believe God has no plan for these people but has one for the people of the old testament times who were counted as righteous and were not commanded to be baptized? God will justly work out who does and does not enter into His kingdom. The real issue is what happens to people who have heard the gospel and have heard/read Peter’s words “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” What happens to these people if they decide they do not want to be baptized?

 

[AVBunyan]

There is a third choice you left out. Salvation comes at the end. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a sign that one is saved but that he is sealed with a guarantee that ‘if’ he remains steadfast he will be saved at the end.

I guess it gets right down to the question:

What are you counting on to get you to heaven?

I am counting on what Jesus did at Calvary for my sin and sins. I am justified by the faith of Jesus Christ (Rom. 3:22; Gal. 2:16). If one is counting on anything othe than what Christ did (including his faith, beliefs, prayers, etc.) then he will not go to heaven - plain and simple.

See how simple salvation is.

 

[aggie03]

So are you saying that you don't have to repent?

 

[AVBunyan]

So are you saying that you don't have to repent?

Aggie03 - I see where you are coming from - trust me on something here - let me ask you a question that my preacher asked me a long time ago:

"What saved you?"

Just play along and answer and I'll show you a great truth my preacher showed me if you are willing to receive it.

Thanks

 

[aggie03]

I want to believe what the Scriptures teach . I'm always more than willing to learn about that - so I'll be more than willing to answer question

I am saved by grace.

 

[AVBunyan]

I want to believe what the Scriptures teach . I'm always more than willing to learn about that - so I'll be more than willing to answer question

I am saved by grace.

I'll go with that but the question was "What". When I answered my preacher I said, "My belief that Jesus died for my sins, was buried and was raised again the third day." Sounds good, huh?

My preacher wisely said: "Oh, your great belief, huh?" He tricked me to get me to see a doctrinal truth. I was saying my "belief" saved me. Mine or any other's belief cannot save. What saved me was, Christ! He was trying to get me to see that it was Christ that saved not my belief or repentance or anything. Salvation is wrapped up in a person, not a belief in that person. See the difference? It is subtle but there. Many people today believe that their faith plus something they did (believed, repented, etc.) actually saved them. The truth of the matter - Christ saved us when He shed his blood at Calvary.
I'm sure you understand that but you would be surprised how many people answer, "My belief in Jesus Christ" - "I repented and believed." or..."My faith plus being baptized!" All sounds good but the answer is, Christ! Glorrrrrriiiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

 

[aggie03]

I'll go with that but the question was "What". When I answered my preacher I said, "My belief that Jesus died for my sins, was buried and was raised again the third day." Sounds good, huh?

Right - you asked what, and I answered with a what. We are saved by Grace. Who has saved us is a completely different question .

My preacher wisely said: "Oh, your great belief, huh?" He tricked me to get me to see a doctrinal truth. I was saying my "belief" saved me. Mine or any other's belief cannot save.

I agree with what your preacher has said - our belief cannot save us. Neither can our repentance, our confession or even baptism. The only thing that can save us is the grace of God.

After having said this, I think that there is an important point that needs to be made. While I am saved by God's grace, I cannot be saved without believing. Would God's grace still be strong enough to save me if I didn't believe? Yes, of course it would, but that doesn't necessarily mean that God would bestow His grace upon me. Likewise, while still saved by grace, I would perish were I not to repent (Luke 13:3,5). My repentance does not save me, but God would not bestow His grace on me were I to be unrepentant. I also believe this holds true with baptism. I am still saved by grace if I am baptized. I am not saved simply because I am baptized, but because God chooses to bestow His grace on me and through His working raises me to a newness of life. Basically, as far as I can understand it, all of these things that I've mentioned so far (belief, repentance, baptism and confession) are conditions that God has placed on the receiving of His grace. One is not saved because they do these things, but God will not give His grace to those who have not responded as the gospel says they should. Does this make sense?

He was trying to get me to see that it was Christ that saved not my belief or repentance or anything. Salvation is wrapped up in a person, not a belief in that person. See the difference? It is subtle but there. Many people today believe that their faith plus something they did (believed, repented, etc.) actually saved them. The truth of the matter - Christ saved us when He shed his blood at Calvary.

I agree with what you've said, but I think that it's slightly incomplete. While the shedding of Christ's blood, His crucifixion, His sacrifice was necessary to pay for the penalty of our sins - this alone is not what saves us. Had Christ simply died on the cross, even though His blood was shed, we would not have any hope of salvation. While His sacrifice was great, the greatest ever, a truly unfathomable commitment to others, His sacrifice is not enough to give us hope. The reason why we can be saved is because not only did Christ die, but He arose. The miracle was not necessarily the death of Jesus, but that He was ressurected. We can have hope in a ressurection because God raised Jesus from the dead :

1 Corinthians 15:16-20 ASV

For if the dead are not raised, neither hath Christ been raised: (17) and if Christ hath not been raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. (18) Then they also that are fallen asleep in Christ have perished. (19) If we have only hoped in Christ in this life, we are of all men most pitiable. (20) But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of them that are asleep.

We can have our sins forgiven because Jesus arose from the dead. We can have a hope to one day be with God forever in heaven because Jesus arose. We can be saved, by grace, because Christ arose. Every promise that we have as a child of God under the New Covenant is contingent on that one thing - the resurrection of Christ.

This is why I believe that baptism is essential. I can find no other way in the Scriptures that it says we are connected with the death, burial and ressurection of Christ other than through baptism. Colossians 2:12 states that through our baptism just as Christ was raised through the working of God, so are we. Romans 6:4 crucial in showing this as well.

I'm sure you understand that but you would be surprised how many people answer, "My belief in Jesus Christ" - "I repented and believed." or..."My faith plus being baptized!" All sounds good but the answer is, Christ!

I'm glad that we have this common understanding . It's important to establish some kind of common ground from which to work - it just makes working toward being of the same mind that much easier.

There is nothing that we can do to save ourselves. Nothing that we will ever do it good enough or powerful enough. This is crucial to understand because there are people who teach that you are saved because you are baptized - that there is some kind of power in the water. I do not believe that - the power is God for God alone saves us. I also believe, however, that this does not negate our responsibility to respond in the ways which God had outlined for us.

There's one more passage that I'd like to quote and then I'll be quiet and let you talk .

Luke 17:7-10 ASV

But who is there of you, having a servant plowing or keeping sheep, that will say unto him, when he is come in from the field, Come straightway and sit down to meat; (8) and will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? (9) Doth he thank the servant because he did the things that were commanded? (10) Even so ye also, when ye shall have done all the things that are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which it was our duty to do.

I find nothing in the things that I do which will earn me praise from God or somehow manage to justify me before Him. I am truly an unprofitable servant and unworthy of my Master, and all that I can do is that which He has commanded me to do. Does this justify me? No, because I was merely doing what He has commanded of me.

I look forward to hearing back from you as it has always been, and I expect it always shall be, a pleasure speaking and discussing with you, AVBunyan. Thank you so much for your comments and questions in this thread and others. I really do hope that you've been having a great day.