Is WATERBAPTISM part of salvation?

[Heartman]

We are saved by supernatural baptism of the Holy Spirit upon repentant conversion.

Heartman

 

[aggie03]

Can you show me exactly where it says that in the Scriptures?

 

[Tawhano]

greeker57married said:We are not saved by our works, but by Grace

I did not say anywhere in my post that you were saved by works. I quoted scripture that said you were justified by faith and faith was dead without works. Is your problem with my interpretation of scripture in the word ‘justified’?

 

[Tawhano]

What saves us? Grace. Is everyone saved then? No. How does one get saved by this grace? By entering into the new covenant that God has made with us. How do you enter into the new covenant?

Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

By faith it says but how? If faith without works is dead then the faith that gives us access must have works. What works would come from faith after hearing the gospel?

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Can you show me exactly where it says that in the Scriptures?

1 cor 12:13
romans 8:9

 

[StreetPreacher]

AVBunyan. Keep up the good work my brother. I'm also an independent Bible believing Baptist.

 

[aggie03]

AVBunyan, sorry that I haven't replied in the past few days. I just wanted to make a brief note to let you know I am still interedted in the line of discussion that we've started. I'll reply to this post (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1756726&postcount=181), hopefully, later this evening. I look forward to talking with you again

 

[Blue Bleeds Thru]

When I read the Scriptures you have posted I see two things that are not mututally exclusive as far as salvation goes -> faith and baptism. I can appreciate that many of you want to fight to the death for faith being the only thing. But to do so is to ignore the rest of the canon. If you truly embrace the New Testament you will be forced to acknowldge that Christ and the Apostles precribed both faith and baptism in the process of salvation. In some parts of the NT there are prescriptions for both faith and baptism, in others only faith, in others baptism. What a true Bible believing Christian is called to do is to bring together ALL of the canon - not just embrace one aspect. So if one does this they MUST conclude that faith and baptism are Divine prescriptions for salvation. Because many of you are so bound to the faith aspect you relegate baptism to a works category. This is an erroneous assumption based on your bias. Faith AND Baptism are NOT mutually exclusive - but rather are intimately connected.

 

[Ben johnson]

you will be forced to acknowldge that Christ and the Apostles precribed both faith and baptism in the process of salvation.

Hi, Blueblood. Welcome to the boards.

The word, "BAPTIZO" in Matt3:11 does not mean "WATER" --- but IMMERSED in the SPIRIT. In Rom6:3 it means "immersed in JESUS, does not mean WATER. Eph4:5 speaks of the ONE IMMERSION into JESUS, does NOT mean water.

We are forced to acknowledge that Cornelius & family & friends were SAVED, well BEFORE they were waterbaptized. Acts 10:47, 11:15 & 17. Shall I quote these verses, or can I count on everyone to look them up?

 

[rnmomof7]

So why is it commanded? Protestants often say, it is commanded, but in the same breath they say it doesn't matter.

That makes no sense to me.

If I command my children to do something and they do not do it, then usually there is a consequence involved. Why are we commanded to be baptized if it is only a symbol- why would God command us to perform something that is merely symbolic if there is nothing to it?

And where does the bible call it a symbol anyway?

Shel it has to do with a basic doctrinal difference.
Some Churches teach Baptismal regeneration ...That is one gets new life in some way through Baptism.
So we see infant Baptism in churches like the RC's , the OE's , the Episcopal and I believe Lutherans.

You also see a church like the Church of Christ with a doctrine that once you believe you MUST be Baptized or you are still not saved.



Most Protestants believe that regeneration comes by repentance and belief .That Baptism is a symbolic. It is an outward sign of an inward change. Dying to the old man and raising with Christ into new life .

Then we have covenantal churches that baptizes infants ..but deny it "saves " or regenerates the infant.
They hold to the traditional reformation that salvation is by Faith.. but the baptism is a sign like circumcision of the child belonging to the covenant family.

 

[aggie03]

Hi, Blueblood. Welcome to the boards.

The word, "BAPTIZO" in Matt3:11 does not mean "WATER" --- but IMMERSED in the SPIRIT. In Rom6:3 it means "immersed in JESUS, does not mean WATER. Eph4:5 speaks of the ONE IMMERSION into JESUS, does NOT mean water.

We are forced to acknowledge that Cornelius & family & friends were SAVED, well BEFORE they were waterbaptized. Acts 10:47, 11:15 & 17. Shall I quote these verses, or can I count on everyone to look them up?

I don't believe that Cornelius and his household were saved before they were baptized necessarily. If you'll notice, they were still commanded to be baptized. The signigicance of this situation is that now salvation is also offered to the Gentiles. This is one of my favorite passages of Scripture, seeing as how I would have been a Gentile , but I think you're trying to make it say something that it doesn't say.

 

[aggie03]

Shel it has to do with a basic doctrinal difference.

Of course . A good question to ask now is whether or not all of these differences can all be correct. If we're honest with ourselves, I believe that there's only one conclusion that we can draw. Because many of these various ideas are at odds with one another, they cannot all be right.

Some Churches teach Baptismal regeneration ...That is one gets new life in some way through Baptism.So we see infant Baptism in churches like the RC's , the OE's , the Episcopal and I believe Lutherans.

Well, I don't believe that infant baptism is authorized by the Scriptures. There was a formal debate that was started about this particular subject, but it never really got too far along.

You also see a church like the Church of Christ with a doctrine that once you believe you MUST be Baptized or you are still not saved.

This sounds pretty close to what I think the Scriptures teach. This, after all, should be our goal. Not to follow a teaching because it has a certain name attacjed to it, but rather we ought to seek after the Truth. I'm not implying in any way that this isn't what we all do, but rather that this is something that we all have to guard against.

I would also like to note, that while there is an actual denomination called the church of Christ, I would like to point out that it's also one of the names that God has called His people. I can't ever remember them being referred to as Lutheran, Orthodox, Methodist...

Most Protestants believe that regeneration comes by repentance and belief .That Baptism is a symbolic. It is an outward sign of an inward change. Dying to the old man and raising with Christ into new life .

I think that Shelb05 has asked a great question here that has still yet to be answered. If this particular explanation is true, then why isn't there a passage in the Scriptures that states clearly and explicitly that baptism is just a symbol? What we find when we look through the Scriptures is that baptism has a very specifiv purpose, the remission of sins (Acts 2:38, 22:16).

Then we have covenantal churches that baptizes infants ..but deny it "saves " or regenerates the infant. They hold to the traditional reformation that salvation is by Faith.. but the baptism is a sign like circumcision of the child belonging to the covenant family.

I suppose that the real reason why I've written all this is not to try and cover all of the ideas that you've presented at great lenght. That would make this an incredibly long post . Rather, it seems to me that you are presenting these various ideas because you believe (and I could be totally off the mark ) that since they are taught by some group, it makes them okay. I don't think it makes any difference who teaches what - they can still be wrong. Just because a large group of people believe something, that in no way gives any credence to it as being from God. Again, I could be totally off, but even if I am, that's something that I like to remind myself of, because I think it's an important point.

 

[Ben johnson]

I don't believe that Cornelius and his household were saved before they were baptized necessarily. If you'll notice, they were still commanded to be baptized. The signigicance of this situation is that now salvation is also offered to the Gentiles. This is one of my favorite passages of Scripture, seeing as how I would have been a Gentile , but I think you're trying to make it say something that it doesn't say.

Acts 10:43 "through His name everyone who believes receives forgiveness of sins.

Acts10:44 "While Peter was still speaking the Holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening..."

Acts10:45 "They were amazed because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also.

Acts10:46 "For they were hearing (the Gentiles) speaking with tongues and exalting God."

Acts10:47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can they?"

Acts11:15 "As I was speaking, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as He did upon us at the beginning".

Acts11:17 "If God therefore gave them the same gift as He gave us after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to stand in the way?"

1. They HEARD the Gospel
2. They BELIEVED
3. They RECEIVED the Holy Spirit
4. They began speaking in tongues and exalting God

How can they NOT be saved? Does the Holy Spirit ever indwell the unsaved? Do the unsaved ever speak in tongues and exalt God? No.

They were saved, but not-yet-dipped.

Waterbaptism ACCOMPANIES salvation; either precedes salvation (Acts 8:16), succeeds salvation (Acts10:47), or is simultaneous with salvation (Acts 2:38).

 

[rnmomof7]

Acts 10:43 "through His name everyone who believes receives forgiveness of sins.

Acts10:44 "While Peter was still speaking the Holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening..."

Acts10:45 "They were amazed because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also.

Acts10:46 "For they were hearing (the Gentiles) speaking with tongues and exalting God."

Acts10:47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can they?"

Acts11:15 "As I was speaking, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as He did upon us at the beginning".

Acts11:17 "If God therefore gave them the same gift as He gave us after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to stand in the way?"

1. They HEARD the Gospel
2. They BELIEVED
3. They RECEIVED the Holy Spirit
4. They began speaking in tongues and exalting God

How can they NOT be saved? Does the Holy Spirit ever indwell the unsaved? Do the unsaved ever speak in tongues and exalt God? No.

They were saved, but not-yet-dipped.

Waterbaptism ACCOMPANIES salvation; either precedes salvation (Acts 8:16), succeeds salvation (Acts10:47), or is simultaneous with salvation (Acts 2:38).

Strong agreement on this one Ben

 

[aggie03]

Was Balaam's donkey saved then?

 

[rnmomof7]

Was Balaam's donkey saved then?

Was the Spirit of God IN him or ON him?

 

[aggie03]

Acts 10:44 ASV

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word.

The Holy Spirit only fell "on" Cornelius and his household. If they were saved because of this, then Balaam's donkey was saved as well.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

spirit baptism without water baptism and they that believed got the gift of tongues to show they of the circumcision who where amazed that God gave the gift to gentiles!!!!1 cor 1:22

 

[Ben johnson]

Was Balaam's donkey saved then?

Did donkeys ever fall? Do donkeys need salvation?

@ Aggie

The Holy Spirit only fell "on" Cornelius and his household. If they were saved because of this, then Balaam's donkey was saved as well.

Acts 11:17 says "the gift of the Holy Spirit conditioned on Cornelius & family believing".

Acts 16:30: " 'What must I do to be saved?' They answered, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved; you and your household.' " Salvation is by BELIEF. Those who DO NOT believe are judged (condemned) already. Jn3:18

Salvation is BELIEF that RECEIVES Jesus (Jn1:12, Rm5:17). Belief that IMMERSES the person in the Holy Spirit (Matt3:11, Eph1:13-14).

(Because I don't think you all are LOOKING UP the verses I cite, Eph1:13-14: "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, having also BELIEVED, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as an earnest of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.")

Is there any verse where people spoke in tongues by the Holy Spirit, who were NOT SAVED at the time!

 

[Tawhano]

How do you enter into the new covenant? Can you enter in with dead faith?