Is WATERBAPTISM part of salvation?

[Ben johnson]

The last group was hired at the 11th hour . . there was still an hour to do works . . so I don't know how you are using it to support a "no works" stand point . . but I don't think you are trying to do that necessarily . .

OK, take the "thief on the cross". He didn't have any time at all...

We are not mere robots with no control over our actions . . we do not merely observe what our body is doing and Christ being in control as though we are possessed.

We have to cooperate with Him! We cannot do so out of our own power . . it is by God's Divine Grace that we are EMPOWERED to cooperate with Him! And it is by God's Divine Grace that we are able to choose to cooperate with Him!

That's true. But salvation being CHRIST-IN-YOU, I read verses like Gal2:20, and then I see a bumper-sticker that says: "GOD IS MY CO-PILOT" --- and I think, "You're in the WRONG SEAT!!!"

"If anyone wishes to follow Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross DAILY and follow Me." Luke9:23 He abides in us through our belief; and we "crucify ourselves and walk in submission to Him, DAILY"...Rm6:11-14

To say that you don't need good works to be saved, but then good works are going to be evident of true faith, true belief is basically not saying anything different in the end than what I am saying .. I just put good works in their place along side of faith . .

But for both of us, it seems to me at least, the proof is in the pudding so to speak. . .

We're saying essentially the same thing. All the translations I've seen sadly get James2:14 wrong; it uses the "me-dunamai" construct ("not-able-to"), a negative question that EXPECTS an answer of "NO". So the correct translation would be something like: "THAT faith (without works) can NOT save you, CAN it!

So while it is true that "one who HAS no works, BUT has the opportunity, therefore has not the saving faith" --- it is equally true what Paul said in Romans11:6: "If it is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace"...

 

[thereselittleflower]

OK, take the "thief on the cross". He didn't have any time at all...

You know, I was going to suggest that as a better example of what you were saying, but his suffering was something, and his acceptance of it was an act . . Acts can be internal as well as external . .

That's true. But salvation being CHRIST-IN-YOU, I read verses like Gal2:20, and then I see a bumper-sticker that says: "GOD IS MY CO-PILOT" --- and I think, "You're in the WRONG SEAT!!!"

LOL

"If anyone wishes to follow Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross DAILY and follow Me." Luke9:23

He abides in us through our belief; and we "crucify ourselves and walk in submission to Him, DAILY"...Rm6:11-14
We're saying essentially the same thing. All the translations I've seen sadly get James2:14 wrong; it uses the "me-dunamai" construct ("not-able-to"), a negative question that EXPECTS an answer of "NO". So the correct translation would be something like: "THAT faith (without works) can NOT save you, CAN it!

So while it is true that "one who HAS no works, BUT has the opportunity, therefore has not the saving faith" --- it is equally true what Paul said in Romans11:6: "If it is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace"...

I don't think we are so far off from each other I would simply make the distinction that in Roman's the works Paul is concerned with are not the same as those James is concerned with . Paul is concerned with people trying to make themselves perfect, worthy of salvation with works of the LAW . . Good works cannot be done apart from Grace . .


Peace in Him!

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

A Brethern . . to discuss or debate YOUR interpretation of scripture is not heresy,

The ONLY way it could be heresy is if you are setting yourself up as completely infallible and the source of all right doctrine in the world . ..

This would be very pressumptious of you to do . .




Peace in Him!

you are argueing with several verse that all say that are salvation do not have works...plain english that is call a heresy

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

God's Grace infuses our soul with His very life . .

!

since God is spirit...John 4:24

so when the Holy Spirit does titus 3:5 He does it to are human spirit so that He can dwell there ....Gal 5:17-22 they war against each other



1 peter 2:11 which war againt the soul

We are thre parts body soul and spirit 1 thes 5:23

 

[thereselittleflower]

you are argueing with several verse that all say that are salvation do not have works...plain english that is call a heresy

NO! I am not arguing with the plain sense of scripture . . I am arguing against YOUR interpretation of scripture .

That is not heresy . . in fact, if we are going to determine which of our views are heretical, lets go back to those who understood the sciprture from the Apostles themselves and see which of our interpretations is supported and which interpretation is denounced as heresy . .

I am very confident in what we will find . .

Have you read the Early Church Fathers??


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

since God is spirit...John 4:24

so when the Holy Spirit does titus 3:5 He does it to are human spirit so that He can dwell there ....Gal 5:17-22 they war against each other



1 peter 2:11 which war againt the soul

We are thre parts body soul and spirit 1 thes 5:23

I find this post lacking any real message . . you are going to have to clarify what you are intending to say here . .


Peace in Him!

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

since God is spirit...John 4:24

so when the Holy Spirit does titus 3:5 He does it to are human spirit so that He can dwell there ....Gal 5:17-22 they war against each other



1 peter 2:11 which war againt the soul

We are thre parts body soul and spirit 1 thes 5:23

God cannot be in our soul

 

[thereselittleflower]

God cannot be in our soul

This is mere semmantics . . . . Do you believe in inviting Jesus into your heart?





<B>

G4151


</B>​

&#960;&#957;&#949;&#965;&#834;&#956;&#945;

pneuma

Thayer Definition:

1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son

• 1a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the \\Holy\\ Spirit)
  
  1b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of \\Truth\\)
  
  1c) never referred to as a depersonalised force

2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated

• 2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
  
  2b) the soul

3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting

• 3a) a life giving spirit
  
  3b) a human soul that has left the body
  3c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
  • 3c1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
    
    3c2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ

4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one

• 4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.

5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)

• 5a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
  
  5b) breath of nostrils or mouth

Part of Speech: noun neuter

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4154

Citing in TDNT: 6:332, 876


​

<B><B>AND

G5590

</B>​

&#968;&#965;&#967;&#951;&#769;

psuche&#772;

Thayer Definition:

1) breath

1a) the breath of life

1a1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing

1a1a) of animals

1a1b) of men

1b) life

1c) that in which there is life

1c1) a living being, a living soul

2) the soul

2a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)

2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life

2c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

Part of Speech: noun feminine

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G5594

Citing in TDNT: 9:608, 1342


​

</B>



You are making a false distinction in the context of our discussion . .

1Co 3:16​

​

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

​

1Co 6:19​

​

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

​

The Holy Spirit dwells within the temple, which is our BODY . . .


So, are you saying the Holy Spirit is in our body, and in our spirit, but not in our soul?



Peace in Him!

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

1 thes 5:23 man has three parts :body soul and spirit

Gal 5:16-21 is the body...2 cor 10:4-5

Gal 5:22-25 is spirit...eph 4:23, John 4:24
fruit of the spirit are attitude not feelings

Psalms 57:6 soul .....2 cor 4:5

Gal 4:23 talks about a carnal believer vs a spiritual believer

Yes the body is the temple of a believer to God since He indwells

But since God at intial salvation only saved the spirit so that we can be indwelled that is why the battle of the mind since we in are body still has the OSN still in it thus the reason for the battle of two wills between the body and spirit that you find in Galations for control of the soul 1 peter 2:11, hebrews 6:19, 2 peter 2:14

God does work thru us and he describes it in the scriptures

 

[thereselittleflower]

1 thes 5:23 man has three parts :body soul and spirit

Gal 5:16-21 is the body...2 cor 10:4-5

Gal 5:22-25 is spirit...eph 4:23, John 4:24
fruit of the spirit are attitude not feelings

Psalms 57:6 soul .....2 cor 4:5

Gal 4:23 talks about a carnal believer vs a spiritual believer

Yes the body is the temple of a believer to God since He indwells

But since God at intial salvation only saved the spirit so that we can be indwelled that is why the battle of the mind since we in are body still has the OSN still in it thus the reason for the battle of two wills between the body and spirit that you find in Galations for control of the soul 1 peter 2:11, hebrews 6:19, 2 peter 2:14

God does work thru us and he describes it in the scriptures

Where does it say in the bible that God only initially saved our spirits?



The passage in Galations does not say that there is a battle of two will betwen the body and the spirit for control of the soul . . it speaks about the flesh and the spirit but not for control of the soul . . but for control of YOU . .

You are not simply a soul . . you are a triune being, spirit, soul and body . . it is for control of YOU - ALL of you . .

If you submit yourself to God, then your whole being will be submitted to God, including your flesh . .

Gal 5:24​

​

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

​

But if we do not submit to God, then our fleshly desires take upper hand . .



But if we go with your idea of the soul, it only proves my point which started this part of the discussion, that when you submit to God, He infuses your soul with divine Grace which empowers you to live for God . . empowers you to live with your "flesh" crucified and its affections and lusts . .


You gave the passage in 1 Pet . . but you said that the flesh wars agaisnt the Spirit as that is all that is saved right now . .. so it would not war against the soul, right?

But this passage says this:

1Pe 2:11​

​

Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

​

How can the flesh war against the soul if it is not saved? . . . if it is unregenerated, then where is the war?

If the flesh wars against the spirit and God indwells our spirit, does not the fact that the flesh wars against our soul also mean that God indwells our soul?


I have more to say, but it will have to wait till later. . .


Peace in Him!

 

[israelthebride]

WE are HIS BRIDE,
let US suffer it.


The bride had a mikvah (water immersion), which is a ritual of cleansing.

Mikvah is a Hebrew word that means "pool" or "body of water." Mikvah is a ceremonial act of purification by the immersion in water. It indicates a separation from a former way to a new way. In the case of marriage, it indicates leaving an old life for a new life with your spouse (Genesis [Bereishit] 2:23-24; Ephesians 5:31).

Immersing in the mikvah is considered spiritual rebirth. The reason is that a mikvah has the power to change a person completely. Concerning the marriage to ISRAEL at Mount Sinai, YH'SHWH said in Ezekiel 16:8-9, as it is written, "...I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee... and thou becamest Mine. Then washed I thee with water...." The washing, or immersion, here refers to that of ISRAEL before the people received the TORAH when YH'SHWH betrothed HIMSELF to ISRAEL at Mount Sinai (Exodus [Shemot] 19:14-15).

BORN AGAIN of WATER

YH'SHWH spoke to the Pharisee, Nicodemus (Nakdimon), that he must be born anew (immersed) to enter into the Kingdom of GOD (John [Yochanan] 3:1-7). The believers in the MESSIAH are to be immersed in the NAME of YH'SHWH (Acts 19:4). HOLY SPIRIT (RUACH HaKODESH) is the immerser of GOD (Luke 3:16; Acts 1:5; 11:15-16).

A Submission to HIS COVENANT

1PET 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of GOD waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1PET 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward GOD,) by the resurrection of MESSIAH YH'SHWH:

LOVE, RICOEL

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

1 peter 2:11 abstain from fleshly lust that war against the soul

2 peter 2:14 unstable souls.....

Hebrews 6:19 which hope we have as an anchor for our soul, both sure and stedfast, which entereth into that within the veil.postional colossian 3:1-3 christains powerball

what an anchor if the flesh desires war against the soul??? unstable???

Gal 5:16 This I say then, walk in the Spirit , and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh...

pretty clear to me! you?

 

[thereselittleflower]

1 peter 2:11 abstain from fleshly lust that war against the soul

2 peter 2:14 unstable souls.....

Hebrews 6:19 which hope we have as an anchor for our soul, both sure and stedfast, which entereth into that within the veil.postional colossian 3:1-3 christains powerball

what an anchor if the flesh desires war against the soul??? unstable???

Gal 5:16 This I say then, walk in the Spirit , and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh...

pretty clear to me! you?

Hi A Brthern

WHAT is pretty clear to you?

simply quoting scripture and then saying it is pretty clear to you does not tell me "What" is clear to you .. . I do not think you are interpreting these scriptures the same way I do, but it would be folly for me to try to guess at how you are interpreting them . .

I would like to contineu discussing this with you, but unless you are willing to do the rest of us the courtesy of putting into words here "HOW" you are interpreting, "WHAT" you understand them to say, it seems pretty meaningless to continue this conversation . . . .


Peace in Him!

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

QUOTE=A Brethren IN CHRIST

1 peter 2:11 abstain from fleshly lust that war against the soul

already have talked about Gal 5:17-20 the works of the flesh

and notice the flesh attacks the soul not the spirit

2 peter 2:14 unstable souls.....

Are souls are unstable by them selves ..tough one

Hebrews 6:19 which hope we have as an anchor for our soul, both sure and stedfast, which entereth into that within the veil.postional colossian 3:1-3 christains powerball

there is an anchor for are unstable souls with in the Spirit

what an anchor if the flesh desires war against the soul??? unstable???

Gal 5:16 This I say then, walk in the Spirit , and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh...

pretty clear to me! you?

peace

its called word study to let God's word define words

 

[thereselittleflower]

A Brethern, . .. you may think you are communicating effectively and clearly, but you are doing neither, and until you do, I can't respond . . . I simply do not have time to try to figure out what you are trying to say and make an educated guess . . . .


And I think we need more than God's word to tell us what is the correct definition of the words used in it, int he context they are used, in the time period they were written, in the culture they were written and how that culture in that time period used them and how they were used by the Church and what the Church understood them t mean . .

The bible is not sufficient to tell us all that by itself . .



Peace in Him!

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

QUOTE=A Brethren IN CHRIST

1 peter 2:11 abstain from fleshly lust that war against the soul

already have talked about Gal 5:17-20 the works of the flesh

and notice the flesh attacks the soul not the spirit

2 peter 2:14 unstable souls.....

Are souls are unstable by them selves ..tough one

Hebrews 6:19 which hope we have as an anchor for our soul, both sure and stedfast, which entereth into that within the veil.

postional truth colossian 3:1-3 christains powerball

there is an anchor for are unstable souls with in the Spirit

what an anchor if the flesh desires war against the soul??? unstable???

Gal 5:16 This I say then, walk in the Spirit , and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh...

Christains have two desireous will's that is why there is conflict within us and is explained in Gal 5:17-23 but just a little bit...

The heart in the scriptures is talking about the mind where the descision is made between the soul, body, and spirit

pretty clear to me! you?

peace

its called word study to let God's word define words

 

[thereselittleflower]

Christains have two desireous will's that is why there is conflict within us and is explained in Gal 5:17-23 but just a little bit...

The heart in the scriptures is talking about the mind where the descision is made between the soul, body, and spirit

pretty clear to me! you?

peace

its called word study to let God's word define words

I do not agree with what you are saying . . at least what I can determine you are trying to say . . you do not use complete sentences, or correct grammar, so it is hard to determine what you are saying . . . most of the time . . I quoted the end of your post as you use both there . . so it is a little clearer . .

I have already explained why I believe you cannot simply use God's word to define words . . we obviously do not agree on your approach . .

And I disagree that the "heart" is just the "mind" or only the mind . . It seems to me that you are fragmenting mans tiune nature too much . . and until you stop using just scripture and start really explaining yourself in sentences and paragraphs clearly, expounding on what you believe the scriptures are saying, no one will understand you well . .we are not mind readers. . .


Peace in Him!

 

[greeker57married]

Dear Michelle,
Then why is it commanded? And why doesn't scripture say it is a symbol, and where does the bible say that regenerational baptism incompletes the work of Christ? I don't recall reading this.

Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.

Rom 6:5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection;

Here in romans 6: we see how baptism is a picture if salvation. As we go under the water, it shows we have died with christ and been buried with christ and as we come out of the Water, it shows we have been raised to walk in new life. Baptism is the first step of obedience after we are saved, that is why it is commanded.

1Pe 3:21 Baptism, which is symbolized by that water, now saves you also, not by removing dirt from the body, but by asking God for a clear conscience based on the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Water does not clean the conciense and regenerate you it is the Holy spirit that does that.

The proper mode of water baptism is immersion. the Greek word baptizo means to immerse, to dip or plunge under.

God Bless
John

 

[greeker57married]

First of all the Catholic rule of faith is not sola scriptoria. We have the teachings of the apostles that Jesus left with us along with His Church. The scriptures support and teaches us the apostolic Christian faith. We do not make up Christian beliefs from reading the bible only, inside a vacuum.

Secondly, when you read scripture in light of the Tradition of the apostles, then it all fits. You do not have to go around and try to jive each verse with one another.

Here is Titus 3 that tell us very clearly that baptism is the re birth.

4
But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared,
5
not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit, 6
whom he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our savior,
7
so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

Dear Michelle,
I respect your convictions, I can see that you have strong beliefs and you are not afraid to state those beliefs. I am a Southern Baptist. Baptist believe in Sola Scripture, that is the Bible is our sole authority for faith and practice. I would like to help clarify what Titus 3:5 is saying.

"But According to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit". The Word washing is the Greek word "loutron" it means a bathing or bath. It can be used literally to refer to a literal bath or washing. It is a reference to water baptism, but Paul is using it here as a picture of the new birth. It is the symbol before the reality, The Holy Spirit does the renewing. The new Christian submits to Baptism after the New birth to picture it for man. Outward symbols does not change the inner person.

In 1Peter 3:21 Peter says, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Baptism is the antitype of Noah's deliverance by water. That is what the Greek word antitupon means the antitype corresponding to the deliverance of Noah's family. It is only a vauge picture of it. The saving by Baptism that Peter mentions is only symbolic as Peter hastens to explain. "NOT THE PUTTING AWAY OF THE FILTH OF THE FLESH. pETER HERE DENIES bAPTISMAL REGENRATION OR FORGIVENESS OF SINS.


When one puts a trusting faith into Jesus Christ they are saved. Man is a sinner and cannot live a good enough life to merit salvation. This is why Christ died for us in our place he took the punishment for our sins. Romans 3:23, 6:23, Rom 5:8. Man can do nothing to save himself, he must trust the atoning work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

He must by faith recieve Christ into His life. Ephesians 2:8-9.

God Bless
John

 

[greeker57married]

Dear Michelle,

First of all the Catholic rule of faith is not sola scriptoria. We have the teachings of the apostles that Jesus left with us along with His Church. The scriptures support and teaches us the apostolic Christian faith. We do not make up Christian beliefs from reading the bible only, inside a vacuum.

Secondly, when you read scripture in light of the Tradition of the apostles, then it all fits. You do not have to go around and try to jive each verse with one another.

Here is Titus 3 that tell us very clearly that baptism is the re birth.

4
But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared,
5
not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit, 6
whom he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our savior,
7
so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

Dear Michelle,
I respect your convictions, I can see that you have strong beliefs and you are not afraid to state those beliefs. I am a Southern Baptist. Baptist believe in Sola Scripture, that is the Bible is our sole authority for faith and practice. I would like to help clarify what Titus 3:5 is saying.

"But According to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit". The Word washing is the Greek word "loutron" it means a bathing or bath. It can be used literally to refer to a literal bath or washing. It is a reference to water baptism, but Paul is using it here as a picture of the new birth. It is the symbol before the reality, The Holy Spirit does the renewing. The new Christian submits to Baptism after the New birth to picture it for man. Outward symbols does not change the inner person.

In 1Peter 3:21 Peter says, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Baptism is the antitype of Noah's deliverance by water. That is what the Greek word antitupon means the antitype corresponding to the deliverance of Noah's family. It is only a vauge picture of it. The saving by Baptism that Peter mentions is only symbolic as Peter hastens to explain. "NOT THE PUTTING AWAY OF THE FILTH OF THE FLESH. pETER HERE DENIES bAPTISMAL REGENRATION OR FORGIVENESS OF SINS.


When one puts a trusting faith into Jesus Christ they are saved. Man is a sinner and cannot live a good enough life to merit salvation. This is why Christ died for us in our place he took the punishment for our sins. Romans 3:23, 6:23, Rom 5:8. Man can do nothing to save himself, he must trust the atoning work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

He must by faith recieve Christ into His life. Ephesians 2:8-9.

God Bless
John