Is WATERBAPTISM part of salvation?

[Arc]

What does everyone think that Jesus meant when he said "You must be born of the water and of the Spirit."

So, are we really wise to call Jesus into error reguarding this and eliminate the water part? baptizm means "immerse" and doesn't mean anything else.

Romans 6:3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

"Buried with him in baptism" is telling here.

Acts 2:37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."

Paul does not dispense with immersion as I pointed out in Rom 6:3. That's what he means when he says saved by faith. There is no "change" in how this is done. Both Peter and Paul are in agreement here.

God gave Jericho into the hands of Joshua by faith, yet they still had to march around the city, etc. Hebrews says this was by faith, not works.

Joshua 6:2 Then the LORD said to Joshua, "See, I have delivered Jericho into your hands, along with its king and its fighting men. 3 March around the city once with all the armed men. Do this for six days. 4 Have seven priests carry trumpets of rams' horns in front of the ark. On the seventh day, march around the city seven times, with the priests blowing the trumpets. 5 When you hear them sound a long blast on the trumpets, have all the people give a loud shout; then the wall of the city will collapse and the people will go up, every man straight in."

Hebrews 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.

The opportunity of belief and repentace and baptism is a gracious gift. This is the highlight of the Gospel. We don't earn our salvation by baptizm (as I have heard some say) anymore than Joshua earned the walls falling down by following God's command by faith.

If we say we don't need to be baptized (immersed in water) as an act of obedience then we are saying that we know better than what the Lord has commanded, that we know a different way to be "born of water and the Spirit". And that would be a works faith. An act of disobedience does not lead to salvation. "My sheep will listen to me".

 

[aggie03]

What does everyone think that Jesus meant when he said "You must be born of the water and of the Spirit."

Exactly. It doesn't say born of water and born of Spirit. It says "born of water and the Spirit"

So, are we really wise to call Jesus into error reguarding this and eliminate the water part? baptizm means "immerse" and doesn't mean anything else.

Another excellent point

According to Peter, baptizm is for forgiveness of sins.

This is exactly right. We are told to be baptized for the remission of our sins (Acts 2:38). I have searched the Scriptures diligently and I have not been able to find a single verse that says it is merely an outward symbol. Another good point

God gave Jericho into the hands of Joshua by faith, yet they still had to march around the city, etc. Hebrews says this was by faith, not works.

Exactly. When God commands us to do something we are being obedient, not becoming righteous by something we thought of on our own. Luke 17:10 is a great verse to go along with this idea:

Luke 17:10 ASV

Even so ye also, when ye shall have done all the things that are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which it was our duty to do.

 

[FOMWatts<><]

First of all let me say that I am all FOR baptism. I believe it is great for the expression of one's faith to the public and for symbolic use for the forgiveness of sin which I believe the Bible teaching was done before the foundations of the earth was laid. I think the NT referal to baptism is more likely to be referring to the union with Christ instead of the immersion into water. Water is the symbol of life, and baptism was and IS a ritual to symbolize new life. I pose a question and in the question is my belief on baptism...

Would believing that baptism is "required for salvation" be saying that there is a part on the human's side to complete the salvation process? I believe it would be saying just that. I believe that God knows our hearts and the faith that He has placed in our hearts in which HE knows we will use to express our faith in Him is what saved us and marked us as HIS children. The Bible says He knew who we were before the foundation of the earth was laid (Eph 1), and we were already blameless and HOLY in His sight because of the faith that He gave us. Therefore, we are PERFECT in His sight because of the blood of Christ. It requires no more. Though I also believe that God knows we WILL express our faith by following the tradition and sacrament of baptism. It is a holy expression to the public and to God to say "I know I am Yours, and now I start my life anew with You as El Capitan!" It is useful in many ways in the Christian life, for symbolic, spiritual, and self-actualizing purposes, but I believe it holds no salvitic effect on God's chosen people. In a sense, we were baptized when He created us as hoyl and blameless.

Blessings,

FOMWatts<><

 

[thereselittleflower]

Yes, water baptism is a necessary part of salvation . .


Peace in Him!

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

QUOTE=Arc What does everyone think that Jesus meant when he said "You must be born of the water and of the Spirit."

So, are we really wise to call Jesus into error reguarding this and eliminate the water part? baptizm means "immerse" and doesn't mean anything else.

two baptisms is that what you are saying?

if so there is scripture that says different..

eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Baptism means put into

1 cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we beJew or Gentile, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

with these two verses there looks to be a bad translation a such a liitle play on words in John 3:5

Exept a man be born of water and of the Spirit is what a lot of bibles have.......

mine says after I talked to a greek scholar ...

Born of water even the Spirit...why the importance

well in John 7:37-39 the H.S. is living water

Acts 1:5 talks about two different baptisms and one is greater.....

Romans 8:9 if one does not have the Spirit you are not mine






"Buried with him in baptism" is telling here.



According to Peter, baptism is for forgiveness of sins. The Holy Spirit comes after that. To argue a different order is to order against clear scripture. Paul does not dispense with immersion as I pointed out in Rom 6:3. That's what he means when he says saved by faith. There is no "change" in how this is done. Both Peter and Paul are in agreement here.

God gave Jericho into the hands of Joshua by faith, yet they still had to march around the city, etc. Hebrews says this was by faith, not works.


The opportunity of belief and repentace and baptism is a gracious gift. This is the highlight of the Gospel. We don't earn our salvation by baptizm (as I have heard some say) anymore than Joshua earned the walls falling down by following God's command by faith.

If we say we don't need to be baptized (immersed in water) as an act of obedience then we are saying that we know better than what the Lord has commanded, that we know a different way to be "born of water and the Spirit". And that would be a works faith. An act of disobedience does not lead to salvation. "My sheep will listen to me".

 

[Arc]

QUOTE=Arc What does everyone think that Jesus meant when he said "You must be born of the water and of the Spirit."

So, are we really wise to call Jesus into error reguarding this and eliminate the water part? baptizm means "immerse" and doesn't mean anything else.

two baptisms is that what you are saying?

if so there is scripture that says different..

There are not two baptisms. In order to born of the Spirit, we must "die" to our old nature. "repent and be baptized" So are you calling into question Jesus who said "unless you repent you will likewise perish"?

Baptism is clearly defined as immerse in the Bible. It is symbolic of our burial, our death. repentance. We are dead to our old sinful ways and hope in the resurrection. If we don't repent, we don't recieve the Holy Spirit. That is the condition, just as it was a condition for Joshua to march around Jericho.

You can't re-define baptism any way you want, especially when it is clear:

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."

This is what Paul is saying, you can't just pick the "least common denominator" and say that's how it works without reading all (Paul's) letters. You will that he is in agreement.

Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
47 Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Is Peter wrong? Obviously, it is still imperitive to "be baptized with water" if "the rock" (Peter) says so! You can find people who have been baptized with water and have not yet received the Holy Spirit, and you can find passages that show it happened when the Gospel is preached and then they are "baptized with water". But you can't eliminate it! Sorry.

Read this carefully:

1 Cor 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? 14 I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

If Paul is talking of baptism as preaching the Gospel, then he's doing a pretty poor job! Only a few people! Clearly he is referring to baptize as immerse in water, which he was not called to do, but he was called to preach the Gospel, which is not baptism. Unless this is an error on Paul's part. Now are both Peter and Paul wrong? Were here do you find the elimination of immersion? In fact, Paul clarifies his calling is to preach the Gospel. Which is why his letters focus on the Gospel. He has not, however removed baptism (immersion).

*Correction* In an earlier post I said "According to Peter, baptism is for forgiveness of sins. The Holy Spirit comes after that. To argue a different order is to order against clear scripture."
Yet this is incorrect. As is clear in Acts 10:44. However, as that passage also asserts, baptism "immersion" is not negated. (also see 1 Cor 1:13 above)

 

[aggie03]

Hi FOMWatts Good to see you on here again! I'm sorry that our other thread we were talking in got closed, but it looks like they're going to open up IDD again, so we may get that thread back.

First of all let me say that I am all FOR baptism. I believe it is great for the expression of one's faith to the public and for symbolic use for the forgiveness of sin which I believe the Bible teaching was done before the foundations of the earth was laid.

I don't fully understand what you are trying to say near the end of second statement in this quote. Would you mind explaining that for me?

Also, I don't believe that the Scriptures ever teach that baptism is an "expression of one's faith to the public". I have never read a verse that specifically states that. What I have read, however, is that baptism is for the remission of our sins (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16). What do you think those passages mean?

I think the NT referal to baptism is more likely to be referring to the union with Christ instead of the immersion into water.

The New Testament teaches some specific things about baptism. It is true that through baptism we are buried with Christ unto death (Romans 6:4) so that God working through our faith will raise us with Him (Colossians 2:12). These are wonderful teachings, wonderful illustrations that should bring those who are obedient a great deal of hope and joy - but we must be obedient to the method that God has outlined for us in the Scriptures. In Acts 8, in particular verse 38, why was the Eunuch immersed in the water if this is not what "baptism" means? The Eunuch heard Philp preach Jesus and understood that he needed to be baptized. When he saw the water they stopped, went down into the water, and he was baptized.

Water is the symbol of life, and baptism was and IS a ritual to symbolize new life.

But water is not where our life is to come from. Our life comes from one place and one place only, Jesus Christ. We have the promise and hope of life because of the ressurection of Jesus Christ. The only way that we can be connected to the ressurection of Christ is to be buried with Him in baptism so that God, working through our faith, might also raise us with Him (Colossians 2:12).

Would believing that baptism is "required for salvation" be saying that there is a part on the human's side to complete the salvation process? I believe it would be saying just that.

No, I disagree with you . There is nothing that we do to "complete salvation". God has offered us a way to reconcile ourselves to Him through His Son who was sacrificed on the cross for our sins once for all (Hebrews 7:27). What we must do is respond to the offer that God has given us. Faith is part of this response. So is repentance, and confession and baptism. These are all things that God has said should be responses to His offer of salvation.

I believe that God knows our hearts and the faith that He has placed in our hearts in which HE knows we will use to express our faith in Him is what saved us and marked us as HIS children.

I don't believe that God has placed faith in our heart, but rather God has given us His word so that upon hearing it we might believe.

Romans 10:17 ASV

So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

God doesn't make us believe in Him, it is a personal choice that we have. God does, however, provide us with everything that we do need in order that we might believe in Him. This belief however is not the only response that His word outlines. Take Luke 13:3,5 for example.

Luke 13:3,5 ASV

(3) I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all in like manner perish. (5) I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

The Bible says He knew who we were before the foundation of the earth was laid (Eph 1), and we were already blameless and HOLY in His sight because of the faith that He gave us.

I just read through the letter to the Ephesians, chapter 1. I didn't find a verse in that chapter that said God makes us believe. Would you mind quoting which verse you think teaches this so that we can discuss it?

Therefore, we are PERFECT in His sight because of the blood of Christ. It requires no more.

So you're saying that one can be okay without repenting? What about confessing? You don't believe you have to do that? These are things that God requires of us, as a response to the salvation that He has offered to us, along with being baptized for the remission of our sins. Can you be perfect without having your sins remitted?

Though I also believe that God knows we WILL express our faith by following the tradition and sacrament of baptism.

Those that have a true faith with also be obedient. God does know this . This, however, does not excuse us from our obedience. Baptism is necessary, and is for the remission of our sins (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38).

It is a holy expression to the public and to God to say "I know I am Yours, and now I start my life anew with You as El Capitan!"

Again, I would appreciate it if you could show me in the Scriptures where it states that baptism is to be for nothing other than a symbol.

It is useful in many ways in the Christian life, for symbolic, spiritual, and self-actualizing purposes, but I believe it holds no salvitic effect on God's chosen people. In a sense, we were baptized when He created us as hoyl and blameless.

Can you be blamless while you are still in your sins? Baptism is for the remission of your sins (Acts 2:38), it is for the washing away of your sins (Acts 22:16). Make no mistake, though, one is not saved simply because they have been dunked uderwater. There is no inherent power in the water because it's only just that: a tub, or barrel, or river, or lake, sea, ocean of water. Molecules of H2O. The power is God's in that according to His mercy He saved us. He chooses to do this, according to the Scriptures, when we are baptized for the remission of our sins.

I look forward to hearing back from you FOMWatts . I am confident that, whomever may be initiially in the right, through a dedicated effort of study and prayer we can come to a mutual understanding and perfecting of our faith if we approach the Scriptures with open and honest hearts, allowing the gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16), and the word of the Lord which abideth forever (1 Peter 1:25) to work in our lives. God has given us the Truth, His word is Truth (John 17:17) - we just have to believe it and be obedient to it.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Eph4:4 There is one body[of thee Christ], and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hopeof your calling [salvation]; 5 One Lord, one Faith, one baptism[for salvation ...Romans 8:9,1cor 12:13]

we all know there are two baptisms in act 1:5 but in the context in Eph they are talking about salvation and without the spirit baptism according to romans 8:9 we are not his how does the spirit get there is in 1 cor 12:13

 

[Ben johnson]

The only way that we can be connected to the ressurection of Christ is to be buried with Him in baptism so that God, working through our faith, might also raise us with Him

In Matt3:11-12, John-the-Baptist speaks of three baptisms: baptism of WATER, baptism of SPIRIT, and baptism of FIRE for SINNERS. Can we deny these three are SEPARATE?

Baptism of the Spirit has nothing to do with water. The Greek "baptizo" means "TO IMMERSE". Therefore, we are immersed in WATER, we are immersed in the SPIRIT, and sinners are immersed in Hell...

Salvation is FELLOWSHIP with the Spirit --- He indwells us, we PARTNER in the Spirit ("metochos", Heb6:4). We are saved by the INDWELT Spirit; which is what "immersed in the Spirit", MEANS...

In Rom6 Paul speaks of being "baptized into Christ"; he also says, "united in death AND in resurrection", "buried with Him", "crucified with Him".

&#8226; Baptised-IMMERSED
&#8226; Buried
&#8226; United
&#8226; Died/Resurrected
&#8226; Crucified

QUESTION --- is Paul talking about FIVE DIFFERENT THINGS here? Two? One thing only --- BORN AGAIN.

Salvation is FELLOWSHIP with Christ; He INDWELLS us, we PARTNER with Him ("metochos" Heb3:14). We are saved by INDWELT Christ, which is what "baptizo-immersed-in-Christ", means...

There is no denying that Matt3:11 speaks of IMMERSION in the Spirit, which has nothing to do with water. Identically, we are immersed in Jesus, which has nothing to do with water.

"Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name." Acts22:16 Tell me --- is it the WATER that cleanses us from sins, or the CALLING-ON-HIS-NAME???

There is no denying that Cornelius and family BELIEVED, and RECEIVED THE SPIRIT (Acts10:43-44). They were JUST AS SAVED as Peter and the Apostles. Acts11:17 But they had NOT YET BEEN WATERBAPTIZED.

Read that again --- they were SAVED, believed and had the HOLY SPIRIT, but they were not WATERBAPTIZED; so there's no way that waterbaptism is part OF salvation; they were saved BEFORE being dipped, those in Acts8:16 were saved AFTER being dipped...

Only one conclusion --- waterbaptism ACCOMPANIES salvation, but is not part OF it.

QUESTION --- did all the concentration camp prisoners WWII who accepted Jesus, PERISH? They were not DIPPED; did they? Black-n-white, yes-or-no; did they? If waterbaptism is part OF savlation, then they ALL PERISHED. But we know that's not TRUE; we will certainly see them in Heaven --- there is no doubt.

 

[billiefan2000]

PLus the thief on the cross next to Jesus wasnt dunked in water,so does that mena that thief isnt saved

 

[Arc]

Salvation is FELLOWSHIP with Christ; He INDWELLS us, we PARTNER with Him ("metochos" Heb3:14). We are saved by INDWELT Christ, which is what "baptizo-immersed-in-Christ", means...

There is no denying that Matt3:11 speaks of IMMERSION in the Spirit, which has nothing to do with water. Identically, we are immersed in Jesus, which has nothing to do with water.

"Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name." Acts22:16 Tell me --- is it the WATER that cleanses us from sins, or the CALLING-ON-HIS-NAME???

If this was known from Matthew 3:11, then why did the Apostles remain adament that it be done in Acts 10:47? It seem that at that time it would no longer be necessary. But they still did it. And since they did it, why? Either they thought it important or they were mistaken. To say that since other texts do no expressly mention "baptize in water" is proof it is not being done is reading something into the text that isn't there.

You could also say I'm reading something that isn't there too, but as I have quoted from Acts, it was done. Not given as an option and never explicitly done away with. So were the Apostles are silent I do not speak. I maintain what the Apostles maintaned as quoted from Acts 10:47 and other places. They had plenty of time and guidence from the Holy Spirit to flat out plainly state that waterbaptism is no longer required. Yet they continued waterbaptizing. So I stick with what they taught. Otherwise I would be calling them into question.

There is no denying that Cornelius and family BELIEVED, and RECEIVED THE SPIRIT (Acts10:43-44). They were JUST AS SAVED as Peter and the Apostles. Acts11:17 But they had NOT YET BEEN WATERBAPTIZED.

Show me where it says they were not baptized with water. Are you assuming that what happened in Acts 10:46-48 would not also be told to those that received the Holy Spirit in Acts 11:17? Why assume against Acts 10:48?

Only one conclusion --- waterbaptism ACCOMPANIES salvation, but is not part OF it.

QUESTION --- did all the concentration camp prisoners WWII who accepted Jesus, PERISH? They were not DIPPED; did they? Black-n-white, yes-or-no; did they? If waterbaptism is part OF savlation, then they ALL PERISHED. But we know that's not TRUE; we will certainly see them in Heaven --- there is no doubt.

Hmmm. And how can a baby repent and be saved? It's the same question. Or, what if I live in a remote jungle and never hear the gospel?

The point is we know what to do, we either obey or disobey. Those who cannot obey are like the ones I stated above and are beyond the scope of this topic.

God ultimately saves, and those he calls obey.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Exactly. It doesn't say born of water and born of Spirit. It says "born of water and the Spirit"


.

Yet in Eph 4:5 it talks about one baptism into salvation.....with out the spirit you are not his romans 8:9 if you do not do water baptism does it matter for salaVATION or christian living

Yet it talks about the H.S. as living water latter in John 7:37-39 coming out of his belly

In titus 3:5 it says the H.S. wahes uswith regeneration and renewing that is 1 cor 12:13

so it looks like we have a little translation problem
I have been told that and is even...????

you translate it from greek!!!!

if not we still have verses that say different

 

[thereselittleflower]

. . . .

Hmmm. And how can a baby repent and be saved? It's the same question. Or, what if I live in a remote jungle and never hear the gospel?

How can the children (including babies) be sanctified by the believing spouse?



Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

PLus the thief on the cross next to Jesus wasnt dunked in water,so does that mena that thief isnt saved

No . .

We call this Baptism by desire . .that the Grace of Baptism is given to those who would desire it if they knew the need of it or are prevented from actually being bapitzed, such as the theif on the cross . .


Peace in Him!

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Exactly. When God commands us to do something we are being obedient, not becoming righteous by something we thought of on our own. Luke 17:10 is a great verse to go along with this idea:

Luke 17:10 ASV

Even so ye also, when ye shall have done all the things that are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which it was our duty to do.

so that is not required in salvation is it.....

can one be a servant if ye are not his?

I like romans 4:6

even david.......,unto whom God imuteth righteousness with out works

yes God calles us to to to better than those since we have more impowerment from HIM than they...BUT isn't God Good that we when we believe that God is the only way the truth and the life in our heart and no man can see HE still sees it and counts that as righteousness since we are then baptized into Christ by the Spirit.....GOD is AWESOME...

Can man tell who is GOD'S TYPE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS OR 1 COR 15:2 BELIEVING IN VAIN.....NO

even Satan the Cherub come as a decievers as an angel of light 2 cor 11:14

so does his satan ministers of righteousness 2 cor 11:15

showing that is is a copyer of God

 

[thereselittleflower]

Baptism is the sign of the New Covenant, as was circumcision a sign of the Old Covenant . . can you have a covenant without a sign? . .


Peace in Him!

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

sorry

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Baptism is the sign of the New Covenant, as was circumcision a sign of the Old Covenant . . can you have a covenant without a sign? . .


Peace in Him!

sign 2 cor 5:7 for we walk by faith not by sight...

This is the dispensation of Grace and man will fail againjust as the jew failed with JC coming and since he left and just as Adam failed

 

[joshua_cheung]

Also, I don't believe that the Scriptures ever teach that baptism is an "expression of one's faith to the public". I have never read a verse that specifically states that. What I have read, however, is that baptism is for the remission of our sins (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16). What do you think those passages mean?


The New Testament teaches some specific things about baptism. It is true that through baptism we are buried with Christ unto death (Romans 6:4) so that God working through our faith will raise us with Him (Colossians 2:12). These are wonderful teachings, wonderful illustrations that should bring those who are obedient a great deal of hope and joy - but we must be obedient to the method that God has outlined for us in the Scriptures. In Acts 8, in particular verse 38, why was the Eunuch immersed in the water if this is not what "baptism" means? The Eunuch heard Philp preach Jesus and understood that he needed to be baptized. When he saw the water they stopped, went down into the water, and he was baptized.


But water is not where our life is to come from. Our life comes from one place and one place only, Jesus Christ. We have the promise and hope of life because of the ressurection of Jesus Christ. The only way that we can be connected to the ressurection of Christ is to be buried with Him in baptism so that God, working through our faith, might also raise us with Him (Colossians 2:12).

Good points. You are a good christian because you are humble to learn Bible - your explanation is based on the Bible. You are not explaned by yourself but based on the fact of Bible. You obey God's commandment and know what is authority.
My brother, May God bless you always. God had given you wisdom and will continue give you more.

 

[thereselittleflower]

sign 2 cor 5:7 for we walk by faith not by sight...

This is the dispensation of Grace and man will fail againjust as the jew failed with JC coming and since he left and just as Adam failed

What does a sign have to do with sight? What does a sign have to do with negating faith or grace?

We are under and a part of the New Convenant, are we not?


Peace in Him!