Is WATERBAPTISM part of salvation?

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

and Christ is the one who Died on the Cross we were non partisapant like Abraham in the making of it

We do nothing for are salvation ...it thru christ and he has done it all

 

[thereselittleflower]

and Christ is the one who Died on the Cross we were non partisapant like Abraham in the making of it

We do nothing for are salvation ...it thru christ and he has done it all

We do nothing? Not even believe?


Peace in Him!

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

with out showing us the light we can not belief

 

[thereselittleflower]

with out showing us the light we can not belief

Yes, I agree . . But what does that have to do with my question?

you said

We do nothing for are salvation ...it thru christ and he has done it all

I responded We do nothing? Not even believe?



Your post above does not address mine at all . . . are we not required to beleive?


Peace in Him!

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Yes, I agree . . But what does that have to do with my question?

you said

[/i]

I responded We do nothing? Not even believe?




Your post above does not address mine at all . . . are we not required to beleive?

peace in Him

is belief an action or something in one mind ?

free will vs God soverignity both are true

proverbs 16:9 a man's heart deviseth his way; but the LORD directeth his steps

 

[thereselittleflower]

is belief an action or something in one mind ?

free will vs God soverignity both are true

proverbs 16:9 a man's heart deviseth his way; but the LORD directeth his steps

Now wait a minute . . you are trying to change the focus of what we are currently discussing . .

You said we have to do nothing . . .

You said nothing about "action" . . .

And action can take many forms . . some can be physical, some can be mental . .


So, let's get back to the question you have not yet answered . .



Do you have to believe to be saved?


Peace in Him!

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

is belief an action or something in one mind ?

free will vs God soverignity both are true

proverbs 16:9 a man's heart deviseth his way; but the LORD directeth his steps

You have to believe but is is not an action it is a thought process...

But who allows us to be able to believe ...God

God shines His glory apon us so we are not blinded by this Dark age

JC Diedand rose again so that we can go to heaven
H.S. convicts us of John 16:7-11 before belief since we cannot Romans 3:10-11

God does ALL the work for are salvation ......John 6:29...Romans 4:2-6

 

[aggie03]

There are a few important distinctions that need to made here.

You have to believe but is is not an action it is a thought process...

I do not think that you are using the term believe in the same way that the Scriptures do. Intrinsic within belief is the obedience to the things that God has said. So not only is believing something that must be done, but it will also produce or elicit a response in the individual that does believe.

But who allows us to be able to believe ...God

God, however, does not make us believe.

JC Diedand rose again so that we can go to heaven

Would you mind doing something for me? I don't really like it when you call Jesus what you did in this quote. Would you please type His name out for me from now on, that just seems a little disrespectful. I would really appreciate that

H.S. convicts us of John 16:7-11 before belief since we cannot Romans 3:10-11

This is done now through the Scriptures, which we have because of the Holy Spirit. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ (Romans 10:17)

God does ALL the work for are salvation

I agree with this statement, but not in the way that you mean it. God has done everything that is required for us to be saved in that Jesus lived the perfect life and was sacrificed, once for all, for our sins. What God has not done is respond for us to this gospel. God has told us that there are certain things we must do in order to receive His promises, certain responses. We must do these in order to wreap the benefits of God's work per se.

 

[thereselittleflower]

is belief an action or something in one mind ?

free will vs God soverignity both are true

proverbs 16:9 a man's heart deviseth his way; but the LORD directeth his steps

Let me ask you this . .

To believe, does not one have to make a choice?


Is not a choice an inward action of the heart and mind?

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shallbesaved.

Is not calling on the Lord an ACT?

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Is confesion not an ACT?

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Again, is not calling on the Lord an ACT?

Here is an interesting one:

1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

]

Childbirth is an act . . and this verse also includes faith and charity, holiness and sobriety . .

Are not these acts as well? Especially when we add Jame's comments that Faith without WORKS is DEAD . . . .?

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ******.

Well . . here, in Jesus' own words, you have to be baptized as well as believe to be saved. . .

clearly this is an ACT . . .


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

You have to believe but is is not an action it is a thought process...

But who allows us to be able to believe ...God

God shines His glory apon us so we are not blinded by this Dark age

JC Diedand rose again so that we can go to heaven
H.S. convicts us of John 16:7-11 before belief since we cannot Romans 3:10-11

God does ALL the work for are salvation ......John 6:29...Romans 4:2-6

So . . a thought process is not an type of act in and of itself? So, if someone has lustful thoughts, then because that is a thought process, they have not committed adultery?

Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Committed refers to an ACT . .

1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Here hate is the same as murder and is treated as though the act of murder has been committed . .



In the same way as all this, BELIEF is an ACT . . .



but it appears to me that you hold that belief is a mere mental thought process with no cooresponding inward and/or outward actions on our part - that belief is a mere mental assent with no corresponding actions or works . .

But belief in the New Testament Church was not a mere mental assent . . it was an all emcompassing ACTION that involved the mind, the will, the emotions, and outward acts . . . you could not say you believed if you did not act . .

Baptism was absolutely an essential part of this belief . . belief was not mere mental assesnt . . and quite frankly, such mere mental assent will do no one any good . . . the scripture say this:

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Would you say that the devils are saved because they have mental assent to the truth?

Now, the context of this verse is very interesting to our discussion :

Jam 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jam 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

Jam 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

These last verse is stated a little more strongly in the NAB:

James 2:20-22 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

Can you believe without having any actions? Well, techically yes . . the demons do so . . but that does not result in salvation . .

Can you have saving faith without actions . . NO!!

YOU have to DO something . . you can't sit passively by and say - but since that is an act then, even mentally assenting - "I believe" . . and hope to be saved . . .



Peace in Him!

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Romans 4:6 Even David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputed righteousness without works

How does one become righteous?

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on HIM that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

you guys need to understand grace!

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

QUOTE=aggie03 There are a few important distinctions that need to made here.


I do not think that you are using the term believe in the same way that the Scriptures do. Intrinsic within belief is the obedience to the things that God has said. So not only is believing something that must be done, but it will also produce or elicit a response in the individual that does believe.


God, however, does not make us believe.

So how does one do this with out GOD?

HE does not make us he bring you to the waters with kindness that one will not deny the GOOD NEWS of grace...GOD does not need to make ....


Would you mind doing something for me? I don't really like it when you call Jesus what you did in this quote. Would you please type His name out for me from now on, that just seems a little disrespectful. I would really appreciate that



This is done now through the Scriptures, which we have because of the Holy Spirit. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ (Romans 10:17)

WHO GIVES EARS TO HEAR?

mark 4:9And He said unto them, he that hath ears to hear, let him hear. [Eph 1:4] 10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. 11 And he said unto them, Unto you is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables. 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

I agree with this statement, but not in the way that you mean it. God has done everything that is required for us to be saved in that Jesus lived the perfect life and was sacrificed, once for all, for our sins. What God has not done is respond for us to this gospel. God has told us that there are certain things we must do in order to receive His promises, certain responses. We must do these in order to wreap the benefits of God's work per se.


so you believe this and [you need to do this ]

1 cor 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain

what does believe in vain mean according to scripture?

1 cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


definitely need to understand GRACE

 

[thereselittleflower]

Romans 4:6 Even David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputed righteousness without works

How does one become righteous?

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on HIM that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

you guys need to understand grace!

A Brethern IN CHRIST

You assume much when you tell us we need to understand grace . . I believe I understand it very well, yet there is no limit to how far one can plumb the depths of God's Divine Grace . .

Tell me, since you don't think I understand grace . . just what IS Grace?



You appear to me to be making a common mistake . . well, a couple of common mistakes . .

One is to fail to distinguish what kind of works is being spoken of in a particular passage, and to lump all works together . . .

The other is to fail to take any quote in full relation to all other scripture . . ignoring other scripture that contradicts your understanding of a particular scripture . .

First, the "works" Paul is speaking of throughout Romans is a particular kind of "works" .. the works of the law of the Old Covenant . . that is a subset of all works spoken of in the scriptures - not the whole set . .

Contrast this with James when he says "Faith without works is dead" . . James goes on to tell us what works he is speaking of and when we look at them, it is obvous he is not speaking of works of the law, but of Grace, of Charity . .. this is very different than what Paul is speaking of in the verse you quoted above . .

Both errors I mention above are evident in your use of this particular verse in Romans to defend your position . .


Anything you say about works has to take into account what James has to say about works . . or else you are cherry picking from the scriptures those passages that appear to support your view point while ignoring those that contradict it . . I could say a lot more right now, but I need to check something else . .but if you like, I can show you a whole list of people justified by their works in the New Testament . .

Now . . if you would like to answer my question about Grace . . . . ?


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Again, here is further proof that there is confusion regarding what "works" are that play a role in our salvation . .

This speaks about THE LAW . . not about works of Grace, of Charity . .

You have to be able to differentiate between these if we are going to be able to communicate effectively with each other . .


Peace in Him!

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

2 Tim1:9 Who hath saved ys, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness 6 Even as David also describeth the blessesness of the man, unto whom God imputed righteousness without works.

OT law ...NEW commandments.....same thing ...GOD did it all

James 2 is talking about Man eyes

Romans is talking about God's eyes

Who is more important....God ....I hope you believe this too for your self...

Grace is something we GET YET do not deserve at all

 

[thereselittleflower]

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

We are not saved by works apart from faith . .. so works of righteousness will not get us anywhere apart from faith . . . fairh apart from Good Works will not get us anywhere either . .

2 Tim1:9 Who hath saved ys, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

Not according to our own works, apart from faith . .neither faith apart from Good Works . .

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Again - Paul is speaking of works of the Law in Romans . . so there was no justification before God by doing the works of the Law . .

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness 6 Even as David also describeth the blessesness of the man, unto whom God imputed righteousness without works.

Again, this is Romans, and Paul is speaking about works of the Law, not Good Works . .

OT law ...NEW commandments.....same thing ...GOD did it all

God did it all, but they are not the same thing . .. they are different Covenants . . One ended, the other began . .

James 2 is talking about Man eyes

ABSOLUTELY FALSE!!

Romans is talking about God's eyes

They are BOTH talking about in GOD''S EYES . . Romans refers to works of the LAW . . James refers to GOOD WORKS of GRACE, of CHARITY

Who is more important....God ....I hope you believe this too for your self...

Of course . .. but neither Paul nor James was speaking of anyone else . .

Grace is something we GET YET do not deserve at all

GRACE is a FREE GIFT!!

Salvation costs us something . . it costs us our life in following Jesus . .


What do you think Grace is ???



Peace in Him!

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Funny how you argue with scripture ...that is called a heresy

 

[Ben johnson]

Well . . here, in Jesus' own words, you have to be baptized as well as believe to be saved. . .

clearly this is an ACT . . .

First, verses 9-20 are not in the oldest manuscripts. Secpmd. He does not actually SAY "dipped or condemned", nor does He say "baptized TO BE saved". The "and is baptized" fits very well with an anecdotal inclusion. What does Jesus say CONDEMNS us, Therese? UNBELIEF. Not "unabelief-and-unbaptism", but just unbelief.

. fairh apart from Good Works will not get us anywhere either . .

No, and yes. The parable in Matt20 speaks of those who were JUST SAVED at the LAST (and therefore had no time to do works). Then there is Rom4:5...

As ABIC said:

Intrinsic within belief is the obedience to the things that God has said. So not only is believing something that must be done, but it will also produce or elicit a response in the individual that does believe.

Very good. Works consequent FROM the heart that truly believes.

There is an explanation to verses like Rom2:6 & Rev20:13 ("each judged according to his deeds"). And it harmonizes Eph2:10 ("For we are His workmanship, createed to walk in good works, which He has prepared beforehand that we might walk in them".) When you read verses like Gal2:20, it becomes clear that salvation is JESUS-IN-YOU. Truly being "indewlt", Him living THROUGH you.

Look at Philip2:13: "For it is GOD who is at work IN you, both to will and to work according to His good purpose."

The answer, is that Jesus IN OUR HEARTS, does our good deeds THROUGH us! Thus they are not our deeds at ALL, Jesus DOES them!

So salvation CANNOT be "by faith + works + sacraments + anything else. Salvation is FAITH/BELIEF; but not the mere acknowledging that James condemned in 2:19, it is the INDWELT belief that allows Jesus do DO our works THROUGH us. Jesus owns our works. He whi IS saved, HAS good fruit (Matt7:18). And at the Judgment, our DEEDS will reveal our HEARTS --- good deeds will expose a SAVED heart, evil deeds will expose a CORRUPT heart (1Jn3:7-10)...

Funny how you argue with scripture ...that is called a heresy

OW!!!

Sorry, Ben just bit his tongue...

 

[thereselittleflower]

First, verses 9-20 are not in the oldest manuscripts. Secpmd. He does not actually SAY "dipped or condemned", nor does He say "baptized TO BE saved". The "and is baptized" fits very well with an anecdotal inclusion. What does Jesus say CONDEMNS us, Therese? UNBELIEF. Not "unabelief-and-unbaptism", but just unbelief.

Hi Ben . . well, I have to disagree with your interpretation of this verse . .

First, you bring up the point that when it tells us that those who believe and are baptized will be save, it does not include Baptism as a condition of no salvation, just unbelief . . and your conclusion is that since it is only included in the first half but not in the 2nd part . .. so it really has nothing to do with our salvation . .

Well, I have to say to this . .. it IS included in the first half of this verse as a condition of salvation . .

That it is NOT included in the 2nd half does not affect its necessity for salvation, and for a very obvious reason once the verse is looked at logically . . .

It would be redundant and unnecessary to include it with belief in the 2nd part as a condition of not receiving salvation AS if you don't have belief, then you are not going to be baptized . . so it is unnecessary to mention baptism again . .

There is NO good reason to even have to mention it again in that verse!

No, and yes. The parable in Matt20 speaks of those who were JUST SAVED at the LAST (and therefore had no time to do works). Then there is Rom4:5...

?? OK I am going to look up this parable to make sure it is the one I am thinking of . . OK, I looked it up and it was the one I was thinking of and I don't see how it supports what you are saying, "No, and yes" . . and (and therefore had not time to do works) . .

The last group was hired at the 11th hour . . there was still an hour to do works . . so I don't know how you are using it to support a "no works" stand point . . but I don't think you are trying to do that necessarily . .

And again, in Romans Paul is referring to Works of the Law . . not Good works of Grace, of Charity such as James is referring to . .

As ABIC said:

Intrinsic within belief is the obedience to the things that God has said. So not only is believing something that must be done, but it will also produce or elicit a response in the individual that does believe.

Very good. Works consequent FROM the heart that truly believes.

I agree . . works that do not come from a heart that truly believes do not benefit anyone regarding eternity . .

You have to have faith AND good works . . Not mere mental assent (which I believe some here are indeed promoting) and not mere works, no matter how good they might be if there is no faith, no belief . .

Faith and Good Works are two sides of the same coing .. I have posted this elsewhere here at CF but it bears repeating ..

Just like breathing consists of insipration and expiriation, so the hearts response to God's Grace, freely given, is Faith and Good works . .

Just like in respiration, if you have only insipration or expiriation without its corresponding counterpart, you will die . . to live you must have both . .

So in the case of the hearts response to God's Grace . . you must have both faith and works . . if you have faith only, or works only, you will spiritually die . .you must have both to spiritually live . .

There is an explanation to verses like Rom2:6 & Rev20:13 ("each judged according to his deeds"). And it harmonizes Eph2:10 ("For we are His workmanship, createed to walk in good works, which He has prepared beforehand that we might walk in them".) When you read verses like Gal2:20, it becomes clear that salvation is JESUS-IN-YOU. Truly being "indewlt", Him living THROUGH you.

Yep! mainifested in the combination of faith and good works. . . again, the verse you quoted above is significant . . "For we are His workmanship, created to walk in good works . . "

Look at Philip2:13: "For it is GOD who is at work IN you, both to will and to work according to His good purpose."

Amen, Good works apart from faith, apart from Grace will mean nothing . .

The answer, is that Jesus IN OUR HEARTS, does our good deeds THROUGH us! Thus they are not our deeds at ALL, Jesus DOES them!

yes and no . . (now its my turn )

We are not mere robots with no control over our actions . . we do not merely observe what our body is doing and Christ being in control as though we are possessed.

We have to cooperate with Him! We cannot do so out of our own power . . it is by God's Divine Grace that we are EMPOWERED to cooperate with Him! And it is by God's Divine Grace that we are able to choose to cooperate with Him!

God's Grace infuses our soul with His very life . . as we respond in faith and good works to this infusion of His Divine Grace, we receive more Grace, and thus we particpate in what I best vizualize as an upwards spiral to God . . receiving and responding to God's Grace . .

So salvation CANNOT be "by faith + works + sacraments + anything else. Salvation is FAITH/BELIEF; but not the mere acknowledging that James condemned in 2:19, it is the INDWELT belief that allows Jesus do DO our works THROUGH us. Jesus owns our works. He whi IS saved, HAS good fruit (Matt7:18). And at the Judgment, our DEEDS will reveal our HEARTS --- good deeds will expose a SAVED heart, evil deeds will expose a CORRUPT heart (1Jn3:7-10)...
OW!!!

Sorry, Ben just bit his tongue...

Ben, I hope your tongue is feelilng better! ouch!!

I know you don't see it the way I do, but I hope you can better understand why I believe you can't remove good works from the equation . .because if you do, and you do not have them, your faith is dead and it ain't going to save you no matter how much you believe . .

Buit I understand you to say that real faith is going to produce good works, so even though we do not appear to be saying the same thing, I think we really are . . we are just coming from 2 different perspectives . .

To say that you don't need good works to be saved, but then good works are going to be evident of true faith, true belief is basically not saying anything different in the end than what I am saying .. I just put good works in their place along side of faith . .

But for both of us, it seems to me at least, the proof is in the pudding so to sepak. . .


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Funny how you argue with scripture ...that is called a heresy

A Brethern . . to discuss or debate YOUR interpretation of scripture is not heresy,

The ONLY way it could be heresy is if you are setting yourself up as completely infallible and the source of all right doctrine in the world . ..

This would be very pressumptious of you to do . .




Peace in Him!