Is WATERBAPTISM part of salvation?

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

John 3:36 is one place you can look. It lists disobedience.

John 3:36 ASV

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

What about those demons that are talked about in James...they believe

James 2:19-20 ASV

Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder. (20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren?

While 1 Peter 3:21 doesn't say anything against faith, it certainly does list something besides faith that is necessary:

1 Peter 3:21 ASV

which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;

Maybe you have misunderstood what I've said. There are those who believe that there is something special about the water in being baptized that saves you. I don't think this is true - but rather as 1 Peter 3:21 says, we are baptized so that we might have a good conscience toward God.

Faith is also necessary at the time that someone is baptized. You will not be saved simply because you were dunked under water. Does that help clear some things up? Or maybe raise more questions?

I look forward to hearing back from you

When were the fallen angels offered salvation?

might have a good conscience?

God promises that we will be spotless and without blame
1 cor 1:8, 2 peter 3:14 both these talk about carnal christians not spiritual christians

 

[aggie03]

Faith comes from God......not man ....

The ability to have faith comes from God - how else could we hear the word and have faith (Romans 10:17). However, God does not make men believe - that is our choice.

 

[Sunbeam]

John says, "I baptize you with water, but HE will baptize you in the Holy Spirit." John distinguishes between WATER and the SPIRIT --- there is no way to contextually assert that "the Holy Spirit baptism is by water" --- John says "ME-WATER, but HE-SPIRIT."

Because the immersion into the Spirit is salvation, because the immersion into Jesus is ALSO salvation, there is no way to recognize that the "Spirit-immersion" in Matt3:11 is NOT water without recognizing that the "Jesus-immersion" in Rom6:3. It is the CONTEXT that forbids the understanding of "Rom6 = waterbaptism"; baptism into Jesus has nothing to do with water.

I agree

Likewise, it is the context that explains "fire" in Matt3:11. It is no accident that verse 12 follows verse 11. The "FIRE" in verse 11 must be the same "FIRE" as in verse 12; there is no reason to recognize that verse 12 speaks of HELLFIRE, but then to contend there is a DIFFERENT fire in verse 11.

11: He will immerse in the Spirit, and immerse in fire.
12: He gathers the WHEAT, but the chaff burns with unquenchable fire.

I don't think the verses are equally paralell. They read differently to me.

Is there any denial that the WHEAT, are they who are baptized in the SPIRIT? No.

Agree here.

Identically, it doesn't make sense to think that there is a sudden CHANGE in "fires"; the "burn chaff with fire" must be the expansion of the previous verse, "immerse in fire"...

.

I guess I see the "baptize with fire" as just discipline. Whether rebuke gladly taken while alive that leads to life, or a prision sentence that is eternal after death.
We have a body to do this now without damage to our spirit. Those that are dead that can't regenerate, the fire hurts them, it is hellfire.

Used to conviction and discipline hurts and burns inside to purify. Your will alligned with God's will is the result and your habit patterns are now where you are motivated with fire within.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

The ability to have faith comes from God - how else could we hear the word and have faith (Romans 10:17). However, God does not make men believe - that is our choice.

mark 4:9And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. 10 And he was alone they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. 11 And he said unto them, Unto you is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may not see, and not perceive; and hearing they may not hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Matt 11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done because they repented not: 21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre, and Sidon, they would have repented along ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you It shall be more tolerable for tyre and sidon at the day of Judgement, than for you

 

[aggie03]

I think I have a different understanding of the verses that you've posted - so would you please, if you don't mind, explain why you've posted them? This would help my understanding of your position

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

mark 4:9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. 10 And he was alone they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. 11 And he said unto them, Unto you is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may not see, and not perceive; and hearing they may not hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

God gives the ears to hear!!!!!!

Matt 11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done because they repented not: 21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre, and Sidon, they would have repented along ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you It shall be more tolerable for tyre and sidon at the day of Judgement, than for you 23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of Judgement, than for thee..

God could have shown His glory to save Sodom ..if He wanted to....BUT He did not ....does God love everyone.....

NO only those He foreknew before the foundation of the world.

God saves who He choses.......


How can unrighteous man pick God?
romans 3:10-11

 

[Ben johnson]

God promises that we will be spotless and without blame
1 cor 1:8, 2 peter 3:14 both these talk about carnal christians not spiritual christians

Welll, actually, "carnal" and "Christian" together comprise a contradiction; for they cannot exist together. "Carnal" means "sinning willfully"; "Christian" means "not practicing sin". "Little children, do not be deceived; he who practices righteousness IS righteous, even as Jesus is righteous. He who does not practice righteousness is of the devil... By this the children of God and the children of the devil are exposed--- he who does not practice righteousness is not of God..." 1Jn3:7-10

Now, if God PROMISES we will be "holy and blameless", then why does Paul present it as CONDITIONAL IF we remain steadfast in faith and not move away from Jesus? And Peter says, "be diligent TO BE FOUND ...spotless and blameless"?

Which is it, He PROMISES our "spotlessness/blamelessness", or we must be diligent TO BE "spotless/blameless"? It's one or the other...

Now, 2Peter begins: "TO those who have receive a faith of the SAME KIND AS OURS, ...through the EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-SAVED-KNOWLEGE of God and Jesus our Lord, ...partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world by lust..." Isn't his audience the SAVED BRETHREN? Who are of the SAME FAITH AS HIM, by the TRUE SAVED KNOWLEDGE of the Lord & Savior Jesus? YES! Verse 3:14 says, "therefore, BELOVED, ...be diligent TO BE FOUND SPOTLESS & BLAMELESS." Do you think he would say "BELOVED" to the UNSAVED?

faith is what saves thou

No; it is GRACE that saves us, THROUGH faith. Grace is the force, faith is the mechanism.

same yesterday same today same tomorrow

True.

Faith comes from God......not man ....

Why are you sure of that?

DEFINE: "Salvic-faith", is "Salvic-belief".

Rom10:10: "With the HEART, man BELIEVES (resulting in righteousness); with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation."
Rom10:17: "Faith comes from HEARING (the word of God)."
2Tim3:15: "Sacred writings able to give you the wisdom leads to faith to salvation."

I don't see any verse that asserts "salvic-faith is instilled by God"; instead, it seems to come from a HEART convicted by the Word of God, and convicted by wisdom from reading Scriptures. Seems clear to me...

BUT --- all of this deviates the thread, and is much better suited for the "Predestination" thrread. This thread is "WATERBAPTISM-PART-OF-SALVATION".

One "bone of contention" is the premise that Jesus is speaking of waterbaptism in Jn3:5, connecting it to "BORN AGAIN". And I would connect the concept of "BORN AGAIN", with "being immersed in the Holy Spirit". That Acts8 (16) recounts an incident when they were dipped but had not YET received the Holy Spirit, and Acts10 (47) recounts an incident where they had RECEIVED the Spirit but had not yet BEEN dipped, it is clear that they were saved APART from the dipping. Is it not?

And the question remains, if waterbaptism is PART of salvation, what of those who COULD NOT? Men in foxholes in battle who receive Jesus, men and women in Nazi prison camps who became believers; anyone gonna say "they were OUTTA-LUCK because they had not been DIPPED"? If these people WENT to Heaven, then the water is consequential TO salvation; and not vice-versa...

 

[aggie03]

Much of what has been talked about of late does tend to stray away from the point of the thread - I agree Ben Johnson!

The problem is, though, that until this difference of where faith comes from discussing baptism is a moot point, the two views cannot be reconciled. The formal debate over baptism was cancelled because one set of people were calvinists. In order for there to be any understanding that can be reached there must be a common ground before hand.

I think that is part of what makes discussions abous things like this so difficult in a forum setting - it's hard to know where to start.

 

[Tawhano]

First of all Salvation comes at the end of our walk, either when we die or living when Jesus returns. We have the hope and guarantee of salvation from the Baptism of the Holy Ghost but that is contingent to our holding steadfast till the return of Christ.

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Hebrews 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Revelations 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

It is our love of Christ that compels us to be obedient and be baptized, for in that act our faith is alive.

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

In the act of water baptism we signify that we have faith that as Christ was raised from the dead so shall we be raised.

Romans 6:3-4
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

It isn’t our faith that saves us but Grace, however it is our faith that keeps us steadfast until the end.

Hebrews 10:38-39
Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

 

[Ben johnson]

I wonder why the formal debate was cancelled? I wouldn't imagine that Calvinists and I would disagree on waterbaptism. I woulda thought we woulda been in agreement.

I have been hopeful all along that "Predestined-Electionists" and us (I believe in "Responsible Grace") could eventually come to agreement. Because I do not have a doctorate in Greek, I was VERY graciously honored with two hours of time yesterday from a college Greek professor. I peppered him with questions, and he answered all my questions. I will post what he said over on the predestination thread (that orange word is a LINK to that thread), but first I'm asking to make certain that I understand correctly. Just when I think I understand Calvinism, I'm told: You have it ALL WRONG...

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Welll, actually, "carnal" and "Christian" together comprise a contradiction; for they cannot exist together. "Carnal" means "sinning willfully"; "Christian" means "not practicing sin". "Little children, do not be deceived; he who practices righteousness IS righteous, even as Jesus is righteous. He who does not practice righteousness is of the devil... By this the children of God and the children of the devil are exposed--- he who does not practice righteousness is not of God..." 1Jn3:7-10

1 john 1:8 if we say that we have no sin[osn] we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 john 1:10 if we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and His word is not in us.

romans 3:23 For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Now, if God PROMISES we will be "holy and blameless", then why does Paul present it as CONDITIONAL IF we remain steadfast in faith and not move away from Jesus? And Peter says, "be diligent TO BE FOUND ...spotless and blameless"?

Which is it, He PROMISES our "spotlessness/blamelessness", or we must be diligent TO BE "spotless/blameless"? It's one or the other...

when will this happen? upon His appearing [Rapture]

Now, 2Peter begins: "TO those who have receive a faith of the SAME KIND AS OURS, ...through the EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-SAVED-KNOWLEGE of God and Jesus our Lord, ...partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world by lust..." Isn't his audience the SAVED BRETHREN? Who are of the SAME FAITH AS HIM, by the TRUE SAVED KNOWLEDGE of the Lord & Savior Jesus? YES! Verse 3:14 says, "therefore, BELOVED, ...be diligent TO BE FOUND SPOTLESS & BLAMELESS." Do you think he would say "BELOVED" to the UNSAVED?
No; it is GRACE that saves us, THROUGH faith. Grace is the force, faith is the mechanism.
True.
Why are you sure of that?

DEFINE: "Salvic-faith", is "Salvic-belief".

Rom10:10: "With the HEART, man BELIEVES (resulting in righteousness); with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation."
Rom10:17: "Faith comes from HEARING (the word of God)."
2Tim3:15: "Sacred writings able to give you the wisdom leads to faith to salvation."

I don't see any verse that asserts "salvic-faith is instilled by God"; instead, it seems to come from a HEART convicted by the Word of God, and convicted by wisdom from reading Scriptures. Seems clear to me...

BUT --- all of this deviates the thread, and is much better suited for the "Predestination" thrread. This thread is "WATERBAPTISM-PART-OF-SALVATION".

One "bone of contention" is the premise that Jesus is speaking of waterbaptism in Jn3:5, connecting it to "BORN AGAIN". And I would connect the concept of "BORN AGAIN", with "being immersed in the Holy Spirit". That Acts8 (16) recounts an incident when they were dipped but had not YET received the Holy Spirit, and Acts10 (47) recounts an incident where they had RECEIVED the Spirit but had not yet BEEN dipped, it is clear that they were saved APART from the dipping. Is it not?

And the question remains, if waterbaptism is PART of salvation, what of those who COULD NOT? Men in foxholes in battle who receive Jesus, men and women in Nazi prison camps who became believers; anyone gonna say "they were OUTTA-LUCK because they had not been DIPPED"? If these people WENT to Heaven, then the water is consequential TO salvation; and not vice-versa...

 

[aggie03]

[/color]

1 john 1:8 if we say that we have no sin[osn] we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 john 1:10 if we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and His word is not in us.

romans 3:23 For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

I think that you've misunderstood what Ben Johnson meant. There is a difference between carnal and Christian, as he has outlined. Not practicing sin means that it isn't something that one does habitually - it doesn't mean that one never sins. So I believe that what he has said is well within the context and the teachings of the Scriptures.

when will this happen? upon His appearing [Rapture]

I don't understand how talking about the rapture, which I believe to be a false teaching, has anything to do with water baptism for the remission of sins. Maybe if you would elaborate, that would help me out . I look forward to hearing back from you.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Welll, actually, "carnal" and "Christian" together comprise a contradiction; for they cannot exist together. "Carnal" means "sinning willfully"; "Christian" means "not practicing sin". .

I do not think I understood Ben wrong
I think I understood him right on the mark

yet read 1 cor 1:2 then 1cor 3:1-3

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Now, if God PROMISES we will be "holy and blameless", then why does Paul present it as CONDITIONAL IF we remain steadfast in faith and not move away from Jesus? And Peter says, "be diligent TO BE FOUND ...spotless and blameless"?

Which is it, He PROMISES our "spotlessness/blamelessness", or we must be diligent TO BE "spotless/blameless"? It's one or the other...

Now

look at the verses

1 cor 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that we may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ

1 cor 15:51 Behold I tell you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we[believers 1cor 1:2] shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead[physically] shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

dead spiritually is Rev 20:12-15

2 tim 4:8 crown of righteousness[Romans 4:5] unto all them also that love His appearing

1 peter 1:7 trail of your faith [1 cor 3:15]



2 peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved[elect/brethren], seeing that ye look such things[2 peter2:18-22 brethren that had real expericial knowledge of real christain living that still got entangled in the pollutions of the world....Free Will] .........[2peter 3:9 God is longsuffering towards the elect since he is not slack concerning His promises], be diligent [work at staying in fellowship] that ye may be found of Him in peace [staying spiritual so that you are not an enemy of God even though a son but acting as a child...Gal 4:6-7, 29],without spot, and blameless

also talks about this subject but this is much more easliy twisted but still explainable

please read verses
Romans 8:7 with 1cor 1:2 then 1 cor 3:1-3

 

[aggie03]

were those things from 1 corinthians 3 acceptable? Paul was writing in order to spur the church at Corinth to remove those things from their lives, was he not? Doesn't this mean that they're unacceptable?

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

were those things from 1 corinthians 3 acceptable? Paul was writing in order to spur the church at Corinth to remove those things from their lives, was he not? Doesn't this mean that they're unacceptable?

No But Just because they were carnal does not mean they lost there salvation...

1 cor 4:21 what will ye? shall I come unto with a rod[Hebrews 12:3-11], or in love and in the spirit of meekness?

 

[aggie03]

Have you noticed that all of the text is in italics?

What does this all have to do with baptism? Did I miss something?

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

aggie03 look at post 71 replying to ben johnson

 

[aggie03]

I still don't see the connection. I haven't been feeling very well the past couple of days, so if you'd spell it out for me, that would really be helpful

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Welll, actually, "carnal" and "Christian" together comprise a contradiction; for they cannot exist together. "Carnal" means "sinning willfully"; "Christian" means "not practicing sin". "Little children, do not be deceived; he who practices righteousness IS righteous, even as Jesus is righteous. He who does not practice righteousness is of the devil... By this the children of God and the children of the devil are exposed--- he who does not practice righteousness is not of God..." 1Jn3:7-10

1 cor 11:13-15

Now, if God PROMISES we will be "holy and blameless", then why does Paul present it as CONDITIONAL IF we remain steadfast in faith and not move away from Jesus? And Peter says, "be diligent TO BE FOUND ...spotless and blameless"?

Which is it, He PROMISES our "spotlessness/blamelessness", or we must be diligent TO BE "spotless/blameless"? It's one or the other...

Now, 2Peter begins: "TO those who have receive a faith of the SAME KIND AS OURS, ...through the EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-SAVED-KNOWLEGE of God and Jesus our Lord, ...partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world by lust..." Isn't his audience the SAVED BRETHREN? Who are of the SAME FAITH AS HIM, by the TRUE SAVED KNOWLEDGE of the Lord & Savior Jesus? YES! Verse 3:14 says, "therefore, BELOVED, ...be diligent TO BE FOUND SPOTLESS & BLAMELESS." Do you think he would say "BELOVED" to the UNSAVED?
No; it is GRACE that saves us, THROUGH faith. Grace is the force, faith is the mechanism.
True.
Why are you sure of that?

DEFINE: "Salvic-faith", is "Salvic-belief".

Rom10:10: "With the HEART, man BELIEVES (resulting in righteousness); with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation."
Rom10:17: "Faith comes from HEARING (the word of God)."
2Tim3:15: "Sacred writings able to give you the wisdom leads to faith to salvation."

I don't see any verse that asserts "salvic-faith is instilled by God"; instead, it seems to come from a HEART convicted by the Word of God, and convicted by wisdom from reading Scriptures. Seems clear to me...

BUT --- all of this deviates the thread, and is much better suited for the "Predestination" thrread. This thread is "WATERBAPTISM-PART-OF-SALVATION".

One "bone of contention" is the premise that Jesus is speaking of waterbaptism in Jn3:5, connecting it to "BORN AGAIN". And I would connect the concept of "BORN AGAIN", with "being immersed in the Holy Spirit". That Acts8 (16) recounts an incident when they were dipped but had not YET received the Holy Spirit, and Acts10 (47) recounts an incident where they had RECEIVED the Spirit but had not yet BEEN dipped, it is clear that they were saved APART from the dipping. Is it not?

And the question remains, if waterbaptism is PART of salvation, what of those who COULD NOT? Men in foxholes in battle who receive Jesus, men and women in Nazi prison camps who became believers; anyone gonna say "they were OUTTA-LUCK because they had not been DIPPED"? If these people WENT to Heaven, then the water is consequential TO salvation; and not vice-versa...

You aggieo3 agree in the next post

I disagreed and I gave other verses once again people stating opinions verse God's word