Is WATERBAPTISM part of salvation?

[Benedicta00]

First of all the Catholic rule of faith is not sola scriptoria. We have the teachings of the apostles that Jesus left with us along with His Church. The scriptures support and teaches us the apostolic Christian faith. We do not make up Christian beliefs from reading the bible only, inside a vacuum.

Secondly, when you read scripture in light of the Tradition of the apostles, then it all fits. You do not have to go around and try to jive each verse with one another.

Here is Titus 3 that tell us very clearly that baptism is the re birth.

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But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared,
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not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit, 6
whom he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our savior,
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so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

The washing that is refered to in Titus is the blood of Christ and not water baptism, this is obvious when taken in context to other scriptures. We are washed in the blood of Christ. You seem to accuse me of making up beliefs inside of a vaccum this could not be further from the truth. The Bible is the final authority and tradition that is not upheld in the scripture is simply not necessary. The scriptures of the final authority and are not a vaccum.

Before you go and accuse me of being one that hates Catholics let me assure you that I have respect for the Catholic church, just not the doctrine espoused by it. The necessity of water baptism is one of those doctrines. The necessity of water baptism is an attempt to add to Christ's finished work and borders on arrogance, no man can add to what Christ has already completed on the cross. Christ's work was perfect and complete and nothing less.

 

[revrobor]

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I disagree with what you have said is necessary to be saved. I believe that you are removing things that God has said are necessary. Luke 13:3,5 seems very clear to add repentence as a condition for our salvation, which you have omitted. It would also really help you would post Scripture with the things you say - that way we aren't just talking about opinions .

When one choses to follow God he has "repented" (changed his mind).


I've looked up the definition of "remisson" in the dictionary, strong's and thayer's. All of them say something similar to this:

remission - to be released from bondage, to be forgiven, to be pardoned, deliverance, or forgiveness.

I didn't find anything about "remaking". I'm very interested to learn where you got this definition from.

Webster's Collegiate Dictionary lists "to restore to a former condition" as one of the definitions. However, it also lists "to release from guilt or penalty". Either on could be used as defining part of the "remaking" process.


I believe that there are several Scriptures that say otherwise, like Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38, and Romans 6 just to name a few. Again, when you make statementst like this one, it would really help out if you posted some Scripture - that way at least I could understand why you believe that you do, and be more able to respond in such a way that we both benefit from the discussion .


I thought Romans 1 says that those who don't believe are without excuse because God's creation ought to be enough to convict them of his existence?

Romans 1:20 ASV

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:

Making it clear that God has revealed Himself to mankind through His creation so no one has an excuse for not turning to Him.

This says they are without excuse, not that they will be saved without hearing (Romans 10:17). I don't understand where you see the contradiction - and I don't understand where you get the basis that someone can be saved without the gospel when Romans 1:16 says that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

Of course it is. But this is simply a statement about the power of the Gospel and says nothing about anyone having to hear it to be saved. For that matter neither does John 3:16.
I look forward to your reply and hope that we can clear up a lot of my questions.

It is not my responsibility to try to convince you that what you believe is not correct. If you believe it was your baptism that saved you that's fine for you. Just don't try to make it a requirement for all new Christians.

 

[Benedicta00]

Flesh-

Read the verse in Titus again.

Bath of re birth: from Jesus side flowed blood and water. Jesus' blood is what saves us all, it is what remits sins but baptism is the way we enter into this covenant. Baptism confers grace, the act of baptism does not save but the grace it confers does.

 

[blixation]

Baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, to be unto the party baptized, a sign of his fellowship with him, in his death and resurrection; of his being engrafted into him;3) of remission of sins;4) and of giving up into God, through Jesus Christ, to live and walk in newness of life.5)

3) Rom. 6:3-5; Col. 2:12; Gal. 3:27
4) Mark 1:4; Acts 22:16
5) Rom. 6:4

Those who do actually profess repentance towards God, faith in, and obedience to, our Lord Jesus Christ, are the only proper subjects of this ordinance.6)

6) Mark 16:16; Acts 8:36,37, 2:41, 8:12, 18:8

The outward element to be used in this ordinance is water, wherein the party is to be baptized, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.7)

7) Matt. 28:19, 20; Acts 8:38

Immersion, or dipping of the person in water, is necessary to the due administration of this ordinance.8)

8) Matt. 3:16; John 3:23

 

[Benedicta00]

Where does the bible say that it is a "ordnance" where does it say it is a "symbol" that your saved by, where does it say that it proceeds faith and salvation?

I would like to know where the bible says all this? All I see is this being read into the scripture, made to make them fit into a premise that came from the reformers somewhere around 400 to 500 years ago, not the ECF, not the apostles, and not Jesus.

I mean come on… Peter says…”Baptism NOW saves you.” Paul says “Or are you unaware that you were baptized into His death.”

Any way… why does God “order” it if it does not confer grace? If it does not confer grace and your ordered to do it and you don’t what happens?

 

[aggie03]

Water baptism, of course, is not a prerequisite for salvation...the guy next to Jesus on the cross wasn't and he got in, to put it pretty bluntly. I do think it is, however, a beautiful thing to do in the example of Christ, as he did it.

Had the command to be baptized been given yet at this point in time? Which Covenant was the theif under?

 

[aggie03]

It is not my responsibility to try to convince you that what you believe is not correct. If you believe it was your baptism that saved you that's fine for you. Just don't try to make it a requirement for all new Christians.

This is where we don't see eye to eye, I think. I'm not making any requirements for anyone's salvation. That would be pretty presumptuous on my part, which, I believe, is a sin against God. I only preach the things that I believe the Bible teaches - and I do think it is my repsonsibility as a Christian to show people when they believe something that does not conform to what the Sciptures teach. Aquila and Priscilla, when they heard Apollos, expounded the way of God to him more accurately - that is there was something that He believe which either wasn't complete or was incorrect (Acts 18:26).

So, getting back to the original topic, do you believe a person can be saved while they are still in their sins, that is, they have never been forgiven of them?

 

[Benedicta00]

I think the break down is thinking the grace that is granted in baptism is a guarantee of salvation. The grace that comes to us from baptism is being reconciled to God through the blood of Jesus. It is the new covenant of being made children of God. Once you have been reconciled you still have to live the Christian life and persevere to the end in order to receive the promise of eternal life. Baptism is that hope that Titus 3 describes.

4
But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared,
5
not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit,
6
whom he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our savior,
7
so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Shelb5: I do respect your position but do not agree with you on it. I go from sola scriptura and you do not. We will never change each others mind on the issue so debate is really pointless. Going from sola scriptura baptism is not necessary for salvation and only Christ's grace is good enough and there is nothing we can to add to that. I appreciate your stance on it and have nejoyed debating you but I will not continue this debate, we have both made out points and anyone reading can clearly see both sides of the issue and that is really what debate in a public forum like this accomplishes. You are knowledgeable on the topic from the doctrinal point of view that you hold and that is commendable I hope you would say the same about me. Thanks for your repsonses in this thread and I look forward to debating you on other issues. God bless and keep you!

 

[aggie03]

I believe the Bible is the only guide for man in regards to determining what is pleasing to God - and I believe baptism is necessary, though not for the same reasons that Shelb05 does.

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

gotta love them smilies faces eh aggie?

I

 

[aggie03]

I try to use them as much as possible to try and hint at the tone of my voice if I were to say what I type. It's very easy, especially when we're talking about a topic like this one, to apply an emotion to another writers post that they might not have been feeling at all. So I use the smilies where and when I can to try and show that I'm not mad or being sarcastic. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't...but it's the best thing I've got to work with, so they're what I use .

So are you on active duty now? And did you see the post I made in reply to you?

 

[Ben johnson]

Had the command to be baptized been given yet at this point in time? Which Covenant was the thief under?

I would say "the NEW Covenant".

Belief is what saves; granted, it is a certain KIND of belief, that "humbles as a child" (Matt18:3-4), "repents" (Lk13:3), "does the will of God" (Mtt7:21), and "born again" (Jn3:3). Unbelief condemns. Mk16:16 says "he who has believed and been baptized shall be saved". But it is entirely credible to see the word "baptize" here, as ANECDOTAL.

Show me a single verse anywhere in the Bible, that says anything but UNBELIEF, condemns...

 

[aggie03]

John 3:36 is one place you can look. It lists disobedience.

John 3:36 ASV

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

What about those demons that are talked about in James...they believe

James 2:19-20 ASV

Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder. (20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren?

While 1 Peter 3:21 doesn't say anything against faith, it certainly does list something besides faith that is necessary:

1 Peter 3:21 ASV

which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;

Maybe you have misunderstood what I've said. There are those who believe that there is something special about the water in being baptized that saves you. I don't think this is true - but rather as 1 Peter 3:21 says, we are baptized so that we might have a good conscience toward God.

Faith is also necessary at the time that someone is baptized. You will not be saved simply because you were dunked under water. Does that help clear some things up? Or maybe raise more questions?

I look forward to hearing back from you

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Demons and angles are not good examples as they have no choice but to believe. There is no free will for them in that aspect.

 

[aggie03]

I should have been a little bit clearer on the main point there . It's in verse 20. We must have faith and works, for faith apart from works is barren.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

works of the devil are done by his children
works of God are done by his children

Hebrews 11:8-9/Gen 15:6 .........Faith
James 2:21/ Gen 22:10 .....works

30 year between these two actions

romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God

just look at Abraham with dealing with salvation/ works.......

BUT my favorite is King David
his works????
murder, adultry.....still saved ....God is so good

 

[aggie03]

King David also repented of his sins - and King Dave was also under a completely different covenant than we are. His was called the Old Covenant. Ours is the New.

Do you still offer grain sacrifices? What about the peace offering? Do offer an unspotted heffer of the 7th year? Do only eat an animal with a cloven hoof if it also chews the cud?

These are all part of the Old Covenant - Christians are part of the New. The old has passed away and was only a shadow of the things to come.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

faith is what saves thou

same yesterday same today same tomorrow

Faith comes from God......not man ....