Is transgender a lie?

[selfinflikted]

No psychiatrist has claimed that there is indisputable evidence. Ever.

And you know this, how?

 

[Cute Tink]

No psychiatrist has claimed that there is indisputable evidence. Ever.

There is no indisputable evidence of a lot of things. That doesn't mean there is no evidence. This is a very recent area of serious study. I don't expect "indisputable evidence" already.

 

[wanderingone]

It's as simple as that. There doesn't need to be evidence to support sex reassignment, just like there doesn't need anything for any other cosmetic surgery.
There only needs to be the desire, and *boom*.

That's not true at all. Even people who have sufficient financial resources to get the surgery can't just go have it done. They have to go through a long, long process before they can be candidates for sex reassignment surgery. Most cosmetic surgery does not require visits to mental health professionals before treatment.

My daughter has a friend now who is being treated for 2 medical issues; depression and a hormonal issue (I think it's a cortisol thing) BEFORE his doctors will move forward with assisting his transition beyond talk therapy. It's simply not that easy to have reassignment surgery. On the other hand a friend of mine saw a doctor on a Monday about her unhappiness with her nose, and despite her having very serious problems keeping her bipolar disorder stabilized she had surgery on Thursday for a new nose.

 

[jennimatts]

So that is your criteria for people who suffer from serious disorders? As long as it doesn't affect you than who cares?

Well, hey, homeless people in the street don't affect me either. Neither do cancer victims or people killed in wars. So who cares, right? It doesn't affect me.

Wow. Where do kids your age get this twisted sense of morality from.

I doubt you would advocate withholding treatment (food and shelter) to alleviate the suffering of "homeless people in the street". Why shouldn't treatment also be provided to alleviate the suffering of trans people?

 

[jennimatts]

Rather than being comfortable in your body by further indulging your sin, why not repent and receive Christ and be comfortable knowing that you have peace and amity with God, and that Christ has already fought the battle on your behalf?

I don't believe it is sinful for a transgender person to seek treatment to be "comfortable in your body", or that this is mutually exclusive with repentance and peace with God.

 

[Joykins]

What exactly does circumcision unto a holy faith have to do with sex reassignment?

Both of them involve altering the genitals. Well, circumcision always does; sex reassignment may or may not.

Circumcision, though, is done to people who can't possibly consent or object to it based on someone else's say-so. But there's a fairly lengthy process of determining whether someone is a good candidate for sex-reassignment surgery.

 

[jennimatts]

...we need to treat those people also as human beings created in the image of God who are dealing the best they can with a very complicated issue, and not some kind of deviant freak...

This!

 

[abacabb3]

I don't think that's empathy, you do not appear to share the emotions of or put yourself in the shoes of people who are transgender and wish to have surgery. I don't think transgender people who seek surgery view themselves as being "butchered" Although I guess one could resent having to go through so much to get healthy.

I would think that the feeling of being butchered would go more with having to have something like a hysterectomy or a mastectomy as a treatment for cancer.

I disagree, I know what it is like to be really depressed and feel hopeless. I also know that regardless how I feel, I have a God that has been through worse for me. We shouldn't by physically deforming people because they cannot get better psychological help.

 

[GenetoJean]

I disagree, I know what it is like to be really depressed and feel hopeless. I also know that regardless how I feel, I have a God that has been through worse for me. We shouldn't by physically deforming people because they cannot get better psychological help.

So I should stay morbidly depressed and, for some, suicidal?

 

[selfinflikted]

abacabb3,

Please answer the question regarding plastic surgery.

 

[selfinflikted]

So I should stay morbidly depressed and, for some, suicidal?

Apparently. And don't forget, repent!

 

[Skybringr]

Both of them involve altering the genitals. Well, circumcision always does; sex reassignment may or may not.

Circumcision, though, is done to people who can't possibly consent or object to it based on someone else's say-so. But there's a fairly lengthy process of determining whether someone is a good candidate for sex-reassignment surgery.

Yeah, do it or you're going to kill yourself or do something drastic.

If only that worked for any other thing in life. Like tax exemption

It think it is absolutely ridiculous that one should even posit that the only way one can be happy is through means of sex reassignment.
What exactly were people doing for thousands of years all the way up to this modern science? Just go there whole life unhappy or suicidal?

On an evolutionary note, it makes one wonder how such people survived natural selection.

It's a straight up cop out- just a way to try and justify doing such.

 

[abacabb3]

Apparently I live in a different reality than you.

Actually, we share a reality. One of us, if not both, are wrong in how we perceive it.

"Feeling" is a word used because adequately describing the experience is difficult. Feeling is not a good word to use because it is inaccurate, but no other word really makes sense. [/quote[
Further, no other word is factually accurate, because you are not talking about the empirically provable. You want me to accept, by faith, that men that think they're women are indeed women. I guess it's fine to have faith in that, or faith in Islam, or anything else. But, you cannot make a faith claim from an area of intellectual superiority. In fact, you just got to admit, "You know what, this is what I think, I know it's foolish, but that's my faith."

I'm not even sure what that question means. Why would you be mentally ill like a schizophrenic? Because I'm not schizophrenic I suppose.

Both are mental conditions.

We disagree over whether it is true. The APA and AMA disagree with you as well. Apparently there are a lot more professionals who study these issues who think there is truth to it.

If professionals come together and agree that the sky's green, I don't have to agree with them. SOme things I just know and unless you have an argument that overturns some pretty general understandings of chromosomes and how we don't count syndromes as definitional for classifications on things, I really do not have to hear anything else because you are not addressing anything that is actually intellectually compelling.

Not sure what to say to this part. I'll just stop being trans I guess, because this seems to imply my situation is entirely a choice and I'm some kind of martyr?

You don't really want my advice, but you should not do any bodily harm to yourself.

So is being born with diabetes, heart issues, cleft lip, no skull, but do you declare that those things don't exist either? They are all exceptions. They make people's lives more difficult and potentially sadder.

Yes, and you just proved my point. These problems are exceptions, they are not part of living a healthy life. So, gender identity issues as an exception ARE NOT mentally healthy and should be likewise classified as an illness.

However, do you agree with the medically accepted treatment for schizophrenia? Do you think all conditions should have the same treatment? Why or why not?

No. Not an expert, so I have no perfect answers. I can tell you what I know doesn't work for some people.

 

[Cute Tink]

Actually, we share a reality. One of us, if not both, are wrong in how we perceive it.

Indeed.

Further, no other word is factually accurate, because you are not talking about the empirically provable. You want me to accept, by faith, that men that think they're women are indeed women. I guess it's fine to have faith in that, or faith in Islam, or anything else. But, you cannot make a faith claim from an area of intellectual superiority. In fact, you just got to admit, "You know what, this is what I think, I know it's foolish, but that's my faith."

And my "faith" is shared by the AMA and APA, many of which are experts on the subject and have studied it thoroughly.

I don't think we've given enough time to the researchers to decide whether this is "empirically provable" or not.

If professionals come together and agree that the sky's green, I don't have to agree with them. SOme things I just know and unless you have an argument that overturns some pretty general understandings of chromosomes and how we don't count syndromes as definitional for classifications on things, I really do not have to hear anything else because you are not addressing anything that is actually intellectually compelling.

I just know some things too, which happens to include a condition I've been fighting against for my entire life.

What should I address that is intellectually compelling. You disagree with the major medical and psychological oversight groups, on the basis of chromosomes (which you acknowledge is not a perfect system) and "I just know", which is hardly intellectually compelling. How do you expect me to have an deep philosophical discussion about you just knowing that I'm a mental case?

You don't really want my advice, but you should not do any bodily harm to yourself.

I don't consider "you're just mentally ill and want to mutilate yourself" much advice. I've already stated (in this topic or the other current one) that if psychological treatment alone worked I would do it.

Yes, and you just proved my point. These problems are exceptions, they are not part of living a healthy life. So, gender identity issues as an exception ARE NOT mentally healthy and should be likewise classified as an illness.

Just because something is "not the norm" does not mean that it is "not mentally healthy and should be classified as an illness". Far too many things become "illnesses" on that basis.

No. Not an expert, so I have no perfect answers. I can tell you what I know doesn't work for some people.

So I have to ask, what doesn't work for trans people?

 

[jennimatts]

I know quite a few trans people who have prayed for this to go away and did so for years to no avail. I don't have any reason to believe this would work any differently for me.

Of course it wouldn't. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we pray for our sin to "go away".

Of course, nowhere in the Bible does it say that gender dysphoria is sin. It is no less appropriate to pray for it to go away than to pray for healing of any affliction.

However, I spent from around age 6 (little hazy back that far) to age 32 just trying to be happy as a male and hoping that this weird feeling that it wasn't me to go away. I suppressed my desire to dress and behave in a female manner as best I could, though some people have told me that despite that effort they still knew in the end. Finally admitting to myself that this is who I am and finally being myself is the only thing that has brought me any internal peace.

So, would you say that "admitting that this is who I am" should be applied to all harmful behavior?

Not exactly sure where you were going with this thought. Gender dysphoria is not a behavior, but rather a condition that could possibly cause a reaction which may or may not be harmful. You haven't established what behavior is harmful.

I am very certain that if there were a way to simply take a pill or get a particular treatment that would have brought my brain into agreement with my body, I would have done it in a heartbeat.

Even if it means acknowledging that your behavior is sinful, requires repentance, submission to Christ, and turning from your sin?

What behavior is patently sinful?

The problem is that they don't have that available as an option and I didn't have the time to sit around and wait for one.

God has been waiting for you far, far longer than you've been waiting for Him.

You aren't likely to win many converts with your approach.

 

[Cute Tink]

Yeah, do it or you're going to kill yourself or do something drastic.

If only that worked for any other thing in life. Like tax exemption

It think it is absolutely ridiculous that one should even posit that the only way one can be happy is through means of sex reassignment.
What exactly were people doing for thousands of years all the way up to this modern science? Just go there whole life unhappy or suicidal?

On an evolutionary note, it makes one wonder how such people survived natural selection.

It's a straight up cop out- just a way to try and justify doing such.

Please don't belittle the fact that many of us are suicidal.

 

[GenetoJean]

Yeah, do it or you're going to kill yourself or do something drastic.

If only that worked for any other thing in life. Like tax exemption

It think it is absolutely ridiculous that one should even posit that the only way one can be happy is through means of sex reassignment.
What exactly were people doing for thousands of years all the way up to this modern science? Just go there whole life unhappy or suicidal?

On an evolutionary note, it makes one wonder how such people survived natural selection.

It's a straight up cop out- just a way to try and justify doing such.

If I thought I could live a happy productive life without transitioning, why do you think I would make all of this up to change my sex? I tried to find a "cure" for a major portiion of my life and couldnt.

 

[Joykins]

Yeah, do it or you're going to kill yourself or do something drastic.

Have some compassion, man.

Transgender study looks at 'exceptionally high' suicide-attempt rate - Los Angeles Times

A whopping 41% of people who are transgender or gender-nonconforming have attempted suicide sometime in their lives, nearly nine times the national average, according to a sweeping survey released three years ago.

In a new study released Tuesday, researchers dug deeper into that number, analyzing the results of the National Transgender Discrimination Survey to examine what puts transgender people at such "exceptionally high" risk.


Researchers from the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention and the Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law found that the risk of attempting suicide was especially severe for transgender or gender nonconforming people who had suffered discrimination or violence, such as being physically or sexually assaulted at work or school.

Among transgender people who became homeless because of bias against their gender identity, 69% said they had tried to kill themselves. Out of those who had been turned away by a doctor because they were transgender or gender-nonconforming, 60% had attempted suicide sometime in their lives, the survey found.

Nearly two-thirds of respondents who were the victims of domestic violence at the hands of a family member had attempted suicide, the study also showed. Suicide attempts were less common among transgender and gender-nonconforming people who said their family ties had remained strong after they came out.

It think it is absolutely ridiculous that one should even posit that the only way one can be happy is through means of sex reassignment.
What exactly were people doing for thousands of years all the way up to this modern science? Just go there whole life unhappy or suicidal?

On an evolutionary note, it makes one wonder how such people survived natural selection.

Trans people usually turn up the same way that other LGBT people do--they are born to straight parents.

It's a straight up cop out- just a way to try and justify doing such.

"Cop-outs" don't usually have such horrifyingly high suicide rates.

 

[mmksparbud]

I know I am not incorrect, knowing the difference between men and women is very easy, I don't have to pretend that there is something I may be missing.


This is in reference to post-modernism and the idea there are no objective truths, which brings us to extreme viewpoints such as not knowing the difference between men and women. It throws all ideas into doubt in which then you have no grounds to even say I am wrong. If anyone can be any gender they want as opposed to how they are physically born and what their DNA says, how do we know anything is true? If I leave DNA at a crime scene, but in my mind I think my DNA being there doesn't mean anything, does what is in my mind acts as an equivalent rebuttal to the DNA evidence? It's simply nonsense.

You know as much about DNA as you do transgenders--Are you even the slightest bit aware that one person can harbor more than one DNA? There countless people who have been born with their twins inside them--they absorbed their twin--and they carry the DNA of both and that DNA can be different in one part of the body to the next!--In other words, their kidneys may have the DNA of their twin, but not their blood. There are women who have nearly lost their children because DNA evidence proved they were not the mother of their children. And that even when there were people there that documented the fact that they saw her give birth to that child! It was then discovered her uterus had the DNA of her absorbed twin. In some cases, that absorbed twin could be of the opposite sex. It's no secret. You can look it up. Ignorance is excusable--up to a point. Willful ignorance is another matter.

 

[loveofourlord]

Honestly, I question your definitions. The question really does not make sense, I'm going with the chromosomes. Further, I do not consider mutations and syndromes as definitional for gender.


No, I don't believe in mutilation.


No, you are pretending there is a different box that no one has ever though existed for almost all of human history. I need compelling genetic evidence that is consistent with other genetic studies. So, you cannot take syndromes and say they are definitional.

Please, consider that carefully. You are making exceptions the rule. I am not aware of when we do that for other creatures in similar situations. Further, we wouldn't call people with gigantism perpetually children, even though they are always undergoing development. These things are exceptions.

The chromosone only goes so far, someone that is externally for all intensive purposes female and the only way to tell is the genes, you talk about them being male, then should they be forced to have sex with woman? Are you all for lesbian sex between a externally female but internally male? Or is it okay and not lesbian because she's really a he?

You see the problems not me, it's your absurdity. You can't use common beliefs and apply them to reality, for a long time it was thought diseases were all caused by demons, now we know differently, should we just stick with the demon idea of dieases and ignore modern medicine because after all thousands of years of history can't be wrong?

People didn't understand how sexes worked, by your definition the fact that someone is chromosonally male, but looks female means they should have sex with males, because thats whats happened throughout history because no way of knowing they were not, but by your definition that made them homosexuals.

So again I ask you, is there a differnce between someone born male by their genes, but physically female their entire life, and someone born male by genes, starts out female and becomes male at puberty. What would you have them do? Should we check everyones genes and make sure someone really is a guy, or really is a girl by genes and if their bodies don't fit their genes we should make them conform to their actual?