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"You only feel guilty because other Christians are telling you it is a sin."
I believe it is. God does answer prayer and your newfound knowledge on this issue is proof of that. I can't make someone change their mind about a questionable activity, only the power of God can do that. Praise God!
"Now, hold on. So you don't believe anyone's ever felt guilty about something without having a good reason to feel that way?"
I'm not telling him how to walk with God, I'm warning him against "touch not, eat not, handle not" which you guys are suggesting he should follow, instead of simply living in/through/of/by the grace of God and nothing but the grace of God. God has begun a work in him, in spirit, and you are suggesting he (Dyin2live, not God) finish it in flesh.
Christ IS his holiness and his righteousness. Nobody ever "grew in Christ" by subjecting themselves to these fleshly rules that you present. They aren't any better or any more sensible or beneficial than the catholic "thou shalt not marry."
His masturbation or lack of it isn't a concern. His heart is, though. You're trying to poison his pure heart with "touch not"s. I know you're doing it with good intentions, but just like the law, what was intended for good turns out to bring nothing but DEATH.
Not at all.
How dare YOU?
Sure people can instill guilt in each other. A muslim could feel terribly guilty for eating pork, because people around him have convinced him -though it isn't actually so- that God diapproves of it. Likewise, you are perfectly able to instill guilt in others, if they see you as an authority on morality.
"I'm not telling him how to walk with God, I'm warning him against "touch not, eat not, handle not" which you guys are suggesting he should follow, instead of simply living in/through/of/by the grace of God and nothing but the grace of God."
I have never believed, or said, that it is.
His conscience is about as trustworthy as yours and mine - in other words, not very. The Spirit > our conscience.
"Thou shalt not touch."
I have yet to find them there, though.
And when was the rule against masturbation added? Rules against masturbation weren't exactly a "core dorctrine" either - but if you're looking for "core doctrines," Paul's warnings against making up such rules would be better.
It's more than that. It's the power of sin.
Yes, pretty much. Without the commandment, sin loses its power. Sin began reigning in the world because Adam and Eve were tempted by the ability to live based on the knowledge of right and wrong.
That I acutally feel guilty/convicted about masturbating? Yeah...
Colossians 2:20-23
In the same way that the pharisees were puffed up by their ability to fast and pray for a long time or give a lot of money to the temple. It's not really denial of self, though, it's about nurturing your self and your flesh and your pride.
I have never believed, or said, that it is.
His conscience is about as trustworthy as yours and mine - in other words, not very. The Spirit > our conscience.
"Thou shalt not touch."
I have yet to find them there, though.
And when was the rule against masturbation added? Rules against masturbation weren't exactly a "core dorctrine" either - but if you're looking for "core doctrines," Paul's warnings against making up such rules would be better.
It's more than that. It's the power of sin.
Yes, pretty much. Without the commandment, sin loses its power. Sin began reigning in the world because Adam and Eve were tempted by the ability to live based on the knowledge of right and wrong.
That I acutally feel guilty/convicted about masturbating? Yeah...
Colossians 2:20-23
Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
In the same way that the pharisees were puffed up by their ability to fast and pray for a long time or give a lot of money to the temple. It's not really denial of self, though, it's about nurturing your self and your flesh and your pride.
Denying yourself is the opposite of subjecting yourself to all sorts of rules and regulations in order to achieve a better standing with God. It's the opposite of dying to yourself and to the world.
"Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
The grace of God is not the license to sin you think it is.
"I have never believed, or said, that it is."
You certainly do believe that. You have said repeatedly that you can do whatever you want because you are saved. That is not true.
"His conscience is about as trustworthy as yours and mine - in other words, not very. The Spirit > our conscience."
Do you even know what the word conscience means?
""Thou shalt not touch.""
I have never typed that sentence.
"I have yet to find them there, though."
Oh there in there, but I believe, that when you see them, you just skip ahead because you believe that since you are in Christ, you don't need those rules.
"And when was the rule against masturbation added?"
In the Catholic church? I have no idea as I'm not Catholic.
"Rules against masturbation weren't exactly a "core dorctrine" either - but if you're looking for "core doctrines," Paul's warnings against making up such rules would be better."
Paul wrote extensively about sins of the flesh. Go read about it in 1 Corinthians 6.
"It's more than that. It's the power of sin."
Wrong again. The power of sin is death, and who gives us death for committing sins? Not the law, God pays us for our sins, with death. Read Romans 6:23, and keep in mind what a wage is, and why wages are paid and who pays them.
"Yes, pretty much. Without the commandment, sin loses its power."
Wrong. Unless you have knowledge of sin, and a law that defines what is sinful and what is not, you can never know if you are behaving in a way that is pleasing to God. The moral law was never given to bring salvation, but it was given to show man his need of a savior.
"Sin began reigning in the world because Adam and Eve were tempted by the ability to live based on the knowledge of right and wrong."
Wrong. Sin entered the world when Adam and Eve disobeyed God. When they did the exact opposite of what He commanded them to not do. The law that was in effect in the garden was, 'do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil'. They ate of that tree, doing the opposite of what God had commanded that they not do, they broke the law. That is the sin. Not the law itself.
"That I acutally feel guilty/convicted about masturbating? Yeah...
If you felt guilty or convicted about masturbation you would have no problem with Dyin2live giving it up for the reasons he has stated. But you do in fact have a problem with his giving it up for the reasons he has stated.
"Colossians 2:20-23
Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."
Nice try, but these verses are not addressing issues of the moral law, but issues regarding the keeping of the ceremonial law. Rules about touching dead bodies, eating meats, distinction of days, those are issues of ceremonial law not moral law. Masturbation is a violation of the moral law, because it is adultery. Adultery is covered by the moral law not the ceremonial law. These verses don't help your case. Now, go forth from Colossians 2 into Colossians 3. In that chapter Paul lays down a whole bunch of "do's" and "don'ts" do those not apply to you either? The "ruels" as you'd call them start in verse 18.
"In the same way that the pharisees were puffed up by their ability to fast and pray for a long time or give a lot of money to the temple. It's not really denial of self, though, it's about nurturing your self and your flesh and your pride."
What you have to keep in mind about the Pharisees is that they were counting on those actions to save them. They thought they were justified by their works. Christians don't believe that. I don't obey the moral law to earn my way into heaven, I obey the moral law to show my gratitude to God for extending grace to me through His son Jesus Christ by living in a way that He has declared is pleasing to Him.
"Denying yourself is the opposite of subjecting yourself to all sorts of rules and regulations in order to achieve a better standing with God."
That's not why people subject themselves to the moral law. But you'll clearly never understand that, so it's really a dead issue.
"It's the opposite of dying to yourself and to the world"
Dying to self, means dying to the pleasures and wills of the flesh. Masturbation is indulgence in the flesh, it's a sexual sin. It's fornication. Read 1 Corinthians 6:18-20. In fact, read all of chapter 6. You were bought at a price Holo. God owns you now and He has a moral law that has not passed away, it is still in effect and you are not free from it. In fact Christ said that not one jot or tittle of the law would pass away until He came again. What law was He talking about if all laws were nailed to the cross at Calvary?
Amen, and amen! Excellent understanding here, Zecryphon!
