Is This The True Charismatic?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Paul didn't go around mocking people and Elijah wasn't a Christian.

For the record, they used to throw rocks at people and I don't believe in that either though I have been known to joke about it.

Seriously I think you have more sense than this. I might not but I'm pretty sure you do.

If you choose to support the false prophets, I won't stop you. All I can do is be a watchman and inform you. What you decide to do with what I have said is your affair.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I've been watching Chris off and on for a long time. Sometimes I feel like I am contributing to his questionable behavior by supporting his channel and sometimes I just find myself laughing. But he does have a point albeit not really the best way to present the Cessationist view. Prophesy bingo is a hoot though.
Blessings

It is a principle of drama that being light hearted with tragedy intensified the tragedy. We see that in Macbeth when there are two idiots at the castle gates doing stupid things while the king is being stabbed to death by Lady Macbeth. It is also true that good comedians tell their jokes seriously while the audience is rolling around laughing, but when a comedian laughs at his own jokes, no one laughs at him. Stephen Wright is an excellent example.

I think the humour that Prophesy Bingo displays makes the tragedy of false prophecy more intense.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Some Oneness Christians are confused about the Godhead just as many Trinitarians are. It's quite wrong of you to say that none of them are saved. I`d take the Pepsi challenge on that one any day of the week.

They follow William Branham who was proved to be a false prophet who taught that he was Elijah come back to the world. It follows the principle that a bad tree will produce bad fruit.

Those who read and study what the Bible actually says and allows Scripture to interpret Scripture are not confused about the Trinity at all. They read the evidence that is right there in the text.

 

[RickReads]

They follow William Branham who was proved to be a false prophet who taught that he was Elijah come back to the world. It follows the principle that a bad tree will produce bad fruit.

I recall something you said recently. Have you run out of arguments already? You`re picking on people now. Branham was controversial even among Apostolics.

I was talking about who the Theophany of the Old Testament is not William Brandham. That is just weak my friend.

 

[RickReads]

If you choose to support the false prophets, I won't stop you. All I can do is be a watchman and inform you. What you decide to do with what I have said is your affair.

I see, you throw out condemnation and then refuse to back it up. I don't blame you because Id thrash you on the Godhead issue.

It's a lot easier to falsely label me as a Brandham follower.

 

[RickReads]

Those who read and study what the Bible actually says and allows Scripture to interpret Scripture are not confused about the Trinity at all. They read the evidence that is right there in the text.

Show your work.

John 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I recall something you said recently. Have you run out of arguments already? You`re picking on people now. Branham was controversial even among Apostolics.

I was talking about who the Theophany of the Old Testament is not William Brandham. That is just weak my friend.

Who's William Brandham? I don't understand what you mean by "Apostolics". Which ones? In NZ we have a Pentecostal denomination who are called the Apostolic Pentecostal Church, and they are Trinitarian in their theology. I don't know about Pentecostals where you are, but in NZ William Branham was considered an heretic who brought division into the Pentecostal movement.

It's a good thing I don't play soccer with you. I'd have sore shins after being kicked instead of the ball. Yellow card!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I see, you throw out condemnation and then refuse to back it up. I don't blame you because Id thrash you on the Godhead issue.

It's a lot easier to falsely label me as a Brandham follower.

What ??!!??

And who is this Brandham dude???

I don't falsely label you as anything. Oneness Pentecostals don't comply with the Nicene Creed concerning the Trinity, and the Nicene Creed is the standard set by the Church to determine who is a genuine Christian believer, and who is not.

So, in my opinion a person who is genuinely converted to Christ is one who subscribes to the Nicene Creed, which was set by the Council of Nicaea in the 4th Century, who made totally sure that what they decided was totally consistent with the written Scriptures. The Christian bishops who were members of that council were totally particular about Scriptural accuracy and proper exegesis, and so there was absolutely no eisegesis in the Creed.

So, I am playing the ball here, not kicking you back in your shins.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Show your work.

John 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Here is the verse in context:

Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me[e] anything in my name, I will do it.

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper,[f] to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be[g] in you (John 14:8-17).

The context shows that Jesus, The Father, and the Holy Spirit are three separate persons within the Godhead as I have shown in the bold parts of the Scripture quote. Trying to show that Jesus and the Father are one person is to twist the Scripture out of context.
Nice try, but no cigar.

 

[RickReads]

Who William Brandham? I don't understand what you mean by "Apostolics". Which ones? In NZ we have a Pentecostal denomination who are called the Apostolic Pentecostal Church, and they are Trinitarian in their theology. I don't know about Pentecostals where you are, but in NZ William Branham was considered an heretic who brought division into the Pentecostal movement.

It's a good thing I don't play soccer with you. I'd have sore shins after being kicked instead of the ball. Yellow card!

If we were playing soccer Id be out to send you to the hospital. You are the one who brought up Branham so you ought to know who you talking about since you implied that he has a major following among Oneness Christians. Apostolic Pentecostal is what Oneness Christians call themselves to distinguish between them and Trinitarian Pentecostals.

William Branham was a Oneness Pentecostal and a very controversial one. I attended a Oneness church on and off for 14 years, sitting under a very prominent Oneness evangelist and Bible prophecy Teacher that I came to know very well. I never heard of William Branham until I hit the internet.

I can tell you that Oneness properly understood is the same as trinity properly understood except it is explained differently which Trinitarians find threatening. It isn't modalism except among the dumdums.

 

[RickReads]

Here is the verse in context:

Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me[e] anything in my name, I will do it.

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper,[f] to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be[g] in you (John 14:8-17).

The context shows that Jesus, The Father, and the Holy Spirit are three separate persons within the Godhead as I have shown in the bold parts of the Scripture quote. Trying to show that Jesus and the Father are one person is to twist the Scripture out of context.
Nice try, but no cigar.

That's a strawman argument. I just put up a verse and look at all the things you claim I said. LOL! Worst joke I heard all week.

The Bible plainly says that no man has seen the Father.

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Jesus never claimed to be separate from the Father.

1. John 14:10
   Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
2. John 14:11
   Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
3. John 16:28
   I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Jesus in fact claims He came forth from within the Father and professed that The Father was inside of Him. The Bible declares the three are One rather than 3 different gods.

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If we were playing soccer Id be out to send you to the hospital. You are the one who brought up Branham so you ought to know who you talking about since you implied that he has a major following among Oneness Christians. Apostolic Pentecostal is what Oneness Christians call themselves to distinguish between them and Trinitarian Pentecostals.

William Branham was a Oneness Pentecostal and a very controversial one. I attended a Oneness church on and off for 14 years, sitting under a very prominent Oneness evangelist and Bible prophecy Teacher that I came to know very well. I never heard of William Branham until I hit the internet.

I can tell you that Oneness properly understood is the same as trinity properly understood except it is explained differently which Trinitarians find threatening. It isn't modalism except among the dumdums.

Way back in the day (1960s) when I was a handsome young man , Oneness Pentecostals were not formed as a Pentecostal denomination yet. In New Zealand independent Pentecostal groups who denied the Trinity were called "Jesus Only" or Branhamites, because they followed the teaching of William Branham. In the U.S. these groups increased in size and the Oneness Pentecostals were formed as a Pentecostal denomination. Many modern generations of Oneness folk don't know that their theology stemmed from Branham's teaching. That is why you didn't initially know about him.

Actually Oneness Pentecostalism comes from a much earlier historical heresy, called, as you mentioned, Modalism. The heresy is called Modalistic Monarchism and was found in the Church in the 2nd and 3rd Centuries, according to Wikipedia: "Modalistic Monarchianism is closely related to Sabellianism and Patripassianism, two ancient theologies condemned as heresy in the Great Church and successive state church of the Roman Empire."

Modalism teaches that God is one person manifested in three different modes.
Manifested as the Father
Manifested as the Son
Manifested as the Holy Spirit.

This is contrary to the Nicene Creed that defines God as three persons who share the same essence.

New Zealand "Jesus Only" Pentecostals teach that the only read person is Jesus, and that He manifested Himself as the Father in the Old Testament, and manifests Himself in the Christian church as the Holy Spirit. This theology denies some of the essential elements of the Gospel - that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the majesty on high, while the Holy Spirit dwells in us, and that Jesus is our defence lawyer in heaven advocating to the Father on our behalf; that Jesus is our mediator between us and the Father. For the Modalist, there is no Jesus in heaven, no mediator, and no advocate, and no Father in heaven. Also, for the Modalist, aka the Oneness Pentecostal, praying the Lord's prayer is meaningless, because it starts with "Our Father who is in heaven". If there is no Father in heaven, then who would the Oneness Pentecostal be praying to if he was praying the Lord's prayer? And if Jesus never went into the heavenly holy of holies to offer up His blood to the Father as the one-time sacrifice for our sins, then how could we be saved? It would make Jesus dying on the Cross for our sins meaningless.

The fact is that Oneness Pentecostals preach another gospel that is not what Paul preached, and they worship a god other than the God of the Bible.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That's a strawman argument. I just put up a verse and look at all the things you claim I said. LOL! Worst joke I heard all week.

The Bible plainly says that no man has seen the Father.

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Jesus never claimed to be separate from the Father.

1. John 14:10
   Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
2. John 14:11
   Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
3. John 16:28
   I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Jesus in fact claims He came forth from within the Father and professed that The Father was inside of Him. The Bible declares the three are One rather than 3 different gods.

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

You actually ignored the whole context of the verse you quoted!! You must still be Oneness in your theology. If that is, we have nothing in common and have nothing more to discuss.

 

[RickReads]

Way back in the day (1960s) when I was a handsome young man , Oneness Pentecostals were not formed as a Pentecostal denomination yet. In New Zealand independent Pentecostal groups who denied the Trinity were called "Jesus Only" or Branhamites, because they followed the teaching of William Branham. In the U.S. these groups increased in size and the Oneness Pentecostals were formed as a Pentecostal denomination. Many modern generations of Oneness folk don't know that their theology stemmed from Branham's teaching. That is why you didn't initially know about him.

Actually Oneness Pentecostalism comes from a much earlier historical heresy, called, as you mentioned, Modalism. The heresy is called Modalistic Monarchism and was found in the Church in the 2nd and 3rd Centuries, according to Wikipedia: "Modalistic Monarchianism is closely related to Sabellianism and Patripassianism, two ancient theologies condemned as heresy in the Great Church and successive state church of the Roman Empire."

Modalism teaches that God is one person manifested in three different modes.
Manifested as the Father
Manifested as the Son
Manifested as the Holy Spirit.

This is contrary to the Nicene Creed that defines God as three persons who share the same essence.

New Zealand "Jesus Only" Pentecostals teach that the only read person is Jesus, and that He manifested Himself as the Father in the Old Testament, and manifests Himself in the Christian church as the Holy Spirit. This theology denies some of the essential elements of the Gospel - that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the majesty on high, while the Holy Spirit dwells in us, and that Jesus is our defence lawyer in heaven advocating to the Father on our behalf; that Jesus is our mediator between us and the Father. For the Modalist, there is no Jesus in heaven, no mediator, and no advocate, and no Father in heaven. Also, for the Modalist, aka the Oneness Pentecostal, praying the Lord's prayer is meaningless, because it starts with "Our Father who is in heaven". If there is no Father in heaven, then who would the Oneness Pentecostal be praying to if he was praying the Lord's prayer? And if Jesus never went into the heavenly holy of holies to offer up His blood to the Father as the one-time sacrifice for our sins, then how could we be saved? It would make Jesus dying on the Cross for our sins meaningless.

The fact is that Oneness Pentecostals preach another gospel that is not what Paul preached, and they worship a god other than the God of the Bible.

I like to discuss scripture but apart from mentioning the Lord's prayer, I see nothing here. Just trinitarian biased libel. Hard fought battle against your modalism strawman.

The Oneness Pentecostal will be fine and you fail to address the real flaw in their theology.

 

[RickReads]

You actually ignored the whole context of the verse you quoted!!

Can you clarify your remark?

 

[RickReads]

You must still be Oneness in your theology. If that is, we have nothing in common and have nothing more to discuss.

If you want to believe in three gods not much I can do about that.