Is this statement about Mary blasphemous?

[shinbits]

The Church on Mary's Mediation

3) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Octobri mense adventante, Sept 22, 1891, ASS 24, 1891, 196.
"... just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother."


Jesus said in John 6:44:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him..."

So wouldn't stating that we can't come to Christ except through Mary be blasphemous, since this statement puts her in the role of God?

And doesn't putting her in this role (that we MUST go through Mary) give her a godlike status, making her an idol?

 

[shinbits]

And what if I said "No one can come to Christ, except through me"? Is that any more blasphemous than saying we can't come to Christ, except through Mary? Why or why not?

 

[laconicstudent]

Main Entry: blas·phe·my
Pronunciation: \ˈblas-fə-mē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural blas·phe·mies
Date: 13th century
1 a : the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God b : the act of claiming the attributes of deity
2 : irreverence toward something considered sacred or inviolable




It would appear my answer would be "No".

 

[lionroar0]

And what if I said "No one can come to Christ, except through me"? Is that any more blasphemous than saying we can't come to Christ, except through Mary? Why or why not?

No.

You didn't give birth to Jesus.

Mary gave birth to Jesus. So no one can come to Jesus except through His mother.

 

[shinbits]

Main Entry: blas·phe·my
Pronunciation: \ˈblas-fə-mē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural blas·phe·mies
Date: 13th century
1 a : the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God b : the act of claiming the attributes of deity
2 : irreverence toward something considered sacred or inviolable




It would appear my answer would be "No".

Mary fits the description of the bolded part, since (just like God) no one is able to come to Christ, except through her.

So it would appear, according to your own definition, that the statement about Mary in the OP, is blasphemous.

 

[shinbits]

No.

You didn't give birth to Jesus.

Mary gave birth to Jesus. So no one can come to Jesus except through His mother.

That statement isn't logical. That's like saying no one can come to the Pope, except through is mother, or no one can come to the President except through his mom, or no one could've come to King Solomon except through Baathsheba.

 

[Catherineanne]

The Church on Mary's Mediation

3) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Octobri mense adventante, Sept 22, 1891, ASS 24, 1891, 196.
"... just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother."


Jesus said in John 6:44:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him..."

So wouldn't stating that we can't come to Christ except through Mary be blasphemous, since this statement puts her in the role of God?

And doesn't putting her in this role (that we MUST go through Mary) give her a godlike status, making her an idol?

No, you are distorting what is meant, probably by not quoting sufficient of the original message.

What the statement means is that we come to Christ through his shared humanity with us, and because he derives his humanity through his mother, therefore, we come to him through her.

It does not mean that Mary is the essential mediatrix between man and Christ. It does mean that, at least in part, Mary is the means by which the essential mediator between man and God is/was enabled to be that mediator. This is by God's grace, which prompted Mary's own submission to his will.

Mary is not godlike, nor an idol. She is, however, first among women, and an example of obedience to all the faithful. If Catholics err in giving her too much status, some of today's low churches certainly err far more in not giving her enough.

 

[Catherineanne]

That statement isn't logical. That's like saying no one can come to the Pope, except through is mother, or no one can come to the President except through his mom, or no one could've come to King Solomon except through Baathsheba.

The Pope, the President and King Solomon all have human mothers and fathers. Christ did not.

Christ gains his humanity ONLY through Mary. Therefore, and in this context only, humanity access God through Mary. Not as mediatrix, but as the means by which the Incarnation was effected.

Catholics can and do use Mary as mediatrix, but it is not compulsory. If you don't want to do it, then don't do it.

 

[shinbits]

No, you are distorting what is meant, probably by not quoting sufficient of the original message.

What the statement means is that we come to Christ through his shared humanity with us, and because he derives his humanity through his mother, therefore, we come to him through her.

The quote says nothing like that. I posted the link, along with the number so anyone can check it out. There's NOTHING about humanity or anything like that.

 

[Catherineanne]

And what if I said "No one can come to Christ, except through me"? Is that any more blasphemous than saying we can't come to Christ, except through Mary? Why or why not?

Here is a thought. Think of Our Lady, who bore the Lord for 9 months in her womb, then gave birth to him and cared for him throughout his childhood and early life, accepting all those doubts about his parentage, and stood at the foot of the cross when he died. Then consider this; your own signature line:

Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is praise worthy--think of these things.

Then if you cannot think of anything nice to say about Our Lady, then kindly refrain from disrespecting her with suggestions of blasphemy in relation to those who honour her in their own way. If I won't tolerate hearing disrespect about my mum (and I won't) I see no reason why Christ will tolerate it of his.

 

[shinbits]

The Pope, the President and King Solomon all have human mothers and fathers. Christ did not.

So?

Christ gains his humanity ONLY through Mary.

This seems blasphemous to me, like God is incapable of making Christ human, except through a human woman. Yes, God chose Mary as a vessel, but it's not like God Almighty had to have a human woman. Thus, Mary really isn't a factor in coming to Christ, since the infinate God could've used any method He chose.

Catholics can and do use Mary as mediatrix, but it is not compulsory. If you don't want to do it, then don't do it.

It seems better to just not, then.

 

[Catherineanne]

The quote says nothing like that. I posted the link, along with the number so anyone can check it out. There's NOTHING about humanity or anything like that.

Well, now there is, because I have explained it. It is absolutely about humanity.

 

[shinbits]

Here is a thought. Think of Our Lady, who bore the Lord for 9 months in her womb, then gave birth to him and cared for him throughout his childhood and early life, accepting all those doubts about his parentage, and stood at the foot of the cross when he died. Then consider this; your own signature line:

Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is praise worthy--think of these things.

Then if you cannot think of anything nice to say about Our Lady, then kindly refrain from disrespecting her with suggestions of blasphemy in relation to those who honour her in their own way. If I won't tolerate hearing disrespect about my mum (and I won't) I see no reason why Christ will tolerate it of his.

Lol. What disrespectful thing have I said about Mary? Where have I said anything negative about her? Unless saying Mary isn't a god is "disrespectful" to you, then you prove that RC's see her as one.

I said that the STATEMENT about Mary is blasphemous, not that Mary herself is a blasphemous. And since Mary didn't make those statements, I'm obviously not refering to her, and you're just needlessly flying off the handle.

 

[Catherineanne]

This seems blasphemous to me, like God is incapable of making Christ human, except through a human woman. Yes, God chose Mary as a vessel, but it's not like God Almighty had to have a human woman. Thus, Mary really isn't a factor in coming to Christ, since the infinate God could've used any method He chose.

Good grief!

It is not about whether God could have chosen differently. It is about how he actually chose to act, and by whom. And if you read your Bible, and follow what it says, then it is your attitude which is out of line with Scripture, not that of those who honour Our Lady. Luke quotes Mary as sayng, "All generations will call me blessed." All except you, perhaps?

It seems better to just not, then.

Your choice. Just be careful about disrespecting Our Lady. A safe rule is, if you would not say something about your own minister's mother, don't say it of Christ's. Which means for a start, no nonsense about being 'just a vessel.' That would be rude of any mother, anywhere, and a thousand times more so of Our Lady.

 

[laconicstudent]

Mary fits the description of the bolded part, since (just like God) no one is able to come to Christ, except through her.

So it would appear, according to your own definition, that the statement about Mary in the OP, is blasphemous.

I don't think she has received the characteristics of a deity. You are the only one to promote that viewpoint.

 

[shinbits]

Good grief!

It is not about whether God could have chosen differently. It is about how he actually chose to act, and by whom. And if you read your Bible, and follow what it says, then it is your attitude which is out of line with Scripture, not that of those who honour Our Lady. Luke quotes Mary as sayng, "All generations will call me blessed." All except you, perhaps?

She said call her "blessed", not "Queen of Heaven" or "Mediatrix". Big difference between "blessed" and the titles RC's have given her.

Your choice. Just be careful about disrespecting Our Lady. A safe rule is, if you would not say something about your own minister's mother, don't say it of Christ's. Which means for a start, no nonsense about being 'just a vessel.' That would be rude of any mother, anywhere, and a thousand times more so of Our Lady.

I would say to my pastor's face, that his mother isn't a god, shouldn't be worshipped, and isn't the "only way" to him or to Christ.

And my pastor would gladly agree.

 

[Catherineanne]

Lol. What disrespectful thing have I said about Mary? Where have I said anything negative about her? Unless saying Mary isn't a god is "disrespectful" to you, then you prove that RC's see her as one.

Pretty well all of it, to me.

I said that the STATEMENT about Mary is blasphemous, not that Mary herself is a blasphemous. And since Mary didn't make those statements, I'm obviously not refering to her, and you're just needlessly flying off the handle.

I am not flying off anything. I am pointing out that Scripture says that all generations (ie of Christians) will call Mary blessed, and that you have yet to do so in this thread. Therefore it is you who are out of line with all generations.

 

[shinbits]

I don't think she has received the characteristics of a deity. You are the only one to promote that viewpoint.

Really? Am I the only one in the world to point out that RC's have ascribed godlike qualities to her? Have you really never heard, except now? Aren't there tons of people on this forum who feel that way? Are you really saying there are not MILLIONS of people who feel the same way?

 

[shinbits]

Pretty well all of it, to me.

Name ONE.

I am not flying off anything. I am pointing out that Scripture says that all generations (ie of Christians) will call Mary blessed, and that you have yet to do so in this thread. Therefore it is you who are out of line with all generations.

Mary is blessed.

There. I'm now in line with all generations.

 

[Catherineanne]

I would say to my pastor's face, that his mother isn't a god, shouldn't be worshipped, and isn't the "only way" to him or to Christ.

And my pastor would gladly agree.

Nonsense. He would say, who says that she is? Being polite to my mum is not the same thing as calling her a god, and being civil is not blasphemy.

On the other hand, ignoring her completely and pretending she does not exist is highly disrespectful. As is any suggestion whatever of calling her 'just a vessel.'