Is this statement about Mary blasphemous?

[Catherineanne]

You haven't said one thing to make us not think that you treat her as a god.

I am not responsible for how other people think, however barmy that thinking might be. I can't 'make' you think anything; you choose.



Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Hail Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.

 

[laconicstudent]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7471172-3/#post54840953

So basically, you are admitting you are the only one in these various threads espousing that position? I can see no other way of interpreting your posting of a link to one of your own posts.

 

[laconicstudent]

Don't just assert it doesn't. I explained why it DOES say that. You explain why it doesn't, if you feel it doesn't. Unless of course, you can't.

Don't just assert that it does. I explained why id DOESN'T say that. You explain why it does, if you feel it does. Unless of course, you can't.


Burden of proof, you are the one advocating the positive, controversial claim. I have quoted the Roman Catholic Catechism to you refuting your claim in your other threads repeatedly, I am disinclined to do so for the nth time, you can go to them and read them there. In short, I have already explained why it doesn't say that, and have done so ad naseum.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7471801-3/#post54868132

 

[laconicstudent]

Kontakion 1
To Thee, the champion leader, do we Thy servants dedicate a hymn of victory and thanksgiving, as ones who have been delivered from eternal death by the Grace of Christ our God Who was born of Thee and by Thy maternal mediation before Him. As Thou dost have invincible might, free us from all misfortunes and sorrowful circumstances who cry aloud:
Rejoice, O Virgin Theotokos, full of Grace, Joy of all who sorrow!


Ikos 1
An archangel was sent from Heaven to declare unto the Theotokos: Rejoice, announcing the divine Incarnation of Christ, Who desired to be born of Her, the Joy of the whole world which was languishing in sorrow. Wherefore, heavy laden with sins, but having obtained the hope of salvation in Thee, we cry out to Thee with compunction:
Rejoice, goodwill of God toward sinners!
Rejoice, strong help for those who repent before the Lord God!
Rejoice, restoration of fallen Adam!
Rejoice, redemption of the tears of Eve!
Rejoice, Thou that dost remove the stain of sin!
Rejoice, laver that dost wash the conscience clean!
Rejoice, Thou that didst bear the Redeemer Who freely cleanseth us of our transgressions!
Rejoice, all-wonderous reconciliation of all with God!
Rejoice, bridge that dost truly lead us from death to life!
Rejoice, Thou that savest the world from the flood of sin!
Rejoice, heavenly ladder by which the Lord descended to us!
Rejoice, cause of deification for all!
Rejoice, O Virgin Theotokos, full of Grace, Joy of all who sorrow!

 

[Catherineanne]

Kontakion 1
To Thee, the champion leader, do we Thy servants dedicate a hymn of victory and thanksgiving, as ones who have been delivered from eternal death by the Grace of Christ our God Who was born of Thee and by Thy maternal mediation before Him. As Thou dost have invincible might, free us from all misfortunes and sorrowful circumstances who cry aloud:
Rejoice, O Virgin Theotokos, full of Grace, Joy of all who sorrow!


Ikos 1
An archangel was sent from Heaven to declare unto the Theotokos: Rejoice, announcing the divine Incarnation of Christ, Who desired to be born of Her, the Joy of the whole world which was languishing in sorrow. Wherefore, heavy laden with sins, but having obtained the hope of salvation in Thee, we cry out to Thee with compunction:
Rejoice, goodwill of God toward sinners!
Rejoice, strong help for those who repent before the Lord God!
Rejoice, restoration of fallen Adam!
Rejoice, redemption of the tears of Eve!
Rejoice, Thou that dost remove the stain of sin!
Rejoice, laver that dost wash the conscience clean!
Rejoice, Thou that didst bear the Redeemer Who freely cleanseth us of our transgressions!
Rejoice, all-wonderous reconciliation of all with God!
Rejoice, bridge that dost truly lead us from death to life!
Rejoice, Thou that savest the world from the flood of sin!
Rejoice, heavenly ladder by which the Lord descended to us!
Rejoice, cause of deification for all!
Rejoice, O Virgin Theotokos, full of Grace, Joy of all who sorrow!

Beautiful! Thanks, ls!

 

[shinbits]

So basically, you are admitting you are the only one in these various threads espousing that position? I can see no other way of interpreting your posting of a link to one of your own posts.

There's a bunch of people in that thread that believe RC's treat Mary as a god.

 

[Rose_bud]

Heres a thought...
If you want to come to know Jesus after the "Flesh", you go through Mary (His Blessed (highly favored, but fleshly human Mother)
If you want to know Jesus after the “Spirit”, it has to be granted to you by His Father (John 6:65),
(His Awesome, Magnificent, and Majestic Father (who is Spirit))

 

[shinbits]

Don't just assert that it does. I explained why id DOESN'T say that. You explain why it does, if you feel it does. Unless of course, you can't.

I did, and no one seems to be able to refute what I said. All that's happened is that people have shifted goalposts, make statements that amount to "nuh-uh!" or derail the thread with false accusations of disrespecting Mary.

Burden of proof, you are the one advocating the positive, controversial claim. I have quoted the Roman Catholic Catechism to you refuting your claim in your other threads repeatedly, I am disinclined to do so for the nth time, you can go to them and read them there. In short, I have already explained why it doesn't say that, and have done so ad naseum.

And I explained repeatedly why quoting the Catechism is useless, many times. It's because despite what it says, other Catholic writings (like the OP) contradict the claim that RC's don't view Mary as a god. This is in adition to all the godlike qualities they've given her, such as being born sinless and staying that way, and being the "Queen of Heaven", which puts her above angels.

 

[shinbits]

Heres a thought...
If you want to come to know Jesus after the "Flesh", you go through Mary (His Blessed (highly favored, but fleshly human Mother)

Paul said we must "crucify the flesh". So it seems we shouldn't get know Jesus "after the Flesh".

If you want to know Jesus after the “Spirit”, it has to be granted to you by His Father (John 6:65),
(His Awesome, Magnificent, and Majestic Father (who is Spirit))

Right on.

 

[Dorothea]

Name ONE.



Mary is blessed.

There. I'm now in line with all generations.

Your posts (actions) in this forum show otherwise. My guess is that you hate the Catholic Church and their practices about Mary, but if one didn't see this, one could see that you actually have a very strong dislike for Mary. Think about what you post. Christ is watching and listening, as well as His Mother. You disrespect or dishonor her, you dishonor Him.

 

[shinbits]

Your posts (actions) in this forum show otherwise. My guess is that you hate the Catholic Church and their practices about Mary, but if one didn't see this, one could see that you actually have a very strong dislike for Mary.

You're right, I hate how RC's have given Mary a godlike status, and refuse to listen to simple reason. But I have no reason to "dislike" the Biblical Mary. And I don't "hate" Catholics.

Think about what you post. Christ is watching and listening, as well as His Mother. You disrespect or dishonor her, you dishonor Him.

That goes for any of God's children, not just Mary.

 

[Catherineanne]

This is in adition to all the godlike qualities they've given her, such as being born sinless and staying that way, and being the "Queen of Heaven", which puts her above angels.

Twaddle. The mother of a King is a Queen. Christ is King of Kings, and his mother derives her title from his, the same as Bathsheba does. From reading Kings, we can see that even Christ himself will bow to his mother in respect. Not because she is God, but because she is his mother and he obeys the ten commandments.

So Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king's mother; and she sat on his right." (1Kings 2:19)

A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
Revelation 12v1

 

[pgp_protector]

No.

You didn't give birth to Jesus.

Mary gave birth to Jesus. So no one can come to Jesus except through His mother.

Then wouldn't we have to go to Mary via Mary's Mother?
[loop]
And Her Mother via Her Mother?
[/loop]

 

[shinbits]

Twaddle. The mother of a King is a Queen. Christ is King of Kings, and his mother derives her title from his, the same as Bathsheba does. From reading Kings, we can see that even Christ himself will bow to his mother in respect. Not because she is God, but because she is his mother and he obeys the ten commandments.

Wow. You're not the least bit ashamed in saying that.

So Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king's mother; and she sat on his right." (1Kings 2:19)

Mary is no more Christ's mother than Joseph is his father. Jesus existed BEFORE Mary, and being God, created Mary; NOT the other way around.

Solomon wouldn't have existed without Bathsheba. Not so with Christ and Mary. It's the other way around.

Thus, Mary isn't truly Christ's mom, and Mary isn't "Queen of Heaven".

A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
Revelation 12v1

This isn't about a literal "woman". She's a symbol of something, just like the twelve stars and "moon under her feet" are. In fact, the ENTIRE book of Revelation is full symbolic figures. Claiming this as literal proof of Mary is just not intelligent.

 

[shinbits]

Then wouldn't we have to go to Mary via Mary's Mother?
[loop]
And Her Mother via Her Mother?
[/loop]

Exactly. I bought that point up, but being unable to refute it, they dodged it, and instead accused me of hating Mary, going off on tangents.

 

[Catherineanne]

Wow. You're not the least bit ashamed in saying that.

Not at all.

Sir Thomas More was Chancellor of England under Henry VIII until he was beheaded for not submitting to the Act of Succession.

History records that every single time Thomas More met his father, whether in the street or in private, he got down on his knees to him, and asked his blessing, even though socially he was superior to him. This was an act of respect, in honour of the commandment to honour our fathers and our mothers.

Just because we have become casual in relation to our own parents, does not mean that other generations were the same. Jewish people have great respect for their mothers even today. There is no reason whatever to suggest that Christ will not have respect for his mother, in the same way that Solomon did for his.

Remember, in Song of Songs, Solomon is taken as an allegory for Christ, and his beloved as an allegory for the Church. So there is good reason to pay close attention to how Solomon is shown to behave to those around him; he is not Christ, but sometimes he is a pattern for Christ; an OT type or allegory of him.

Mary is no more Christ's mother than Joseph is his father. Jesus existed BEFORE Mary, and being God, created Mary; NOT the other way around.

Finally we have the source of your somewhat heretical thinking. Certainly Christ is eternal, but by the mystery of the Incarnation, in his eternity he is the product of both Mary and God. Don't ask me how, but Christ is who he is eternally, not just from 5BC. And he is eternally both fully man through Mary and fully God through the Holy Spirit.

God is not subject to time. Any act involving God in creation is an act of eternity, not of temporality. Therefore the Crucifixion is eternal, the Incarnation is eternal, the Birth and Resurrection are eternal. In Our Lady the eternal and the temporal come together, and the result is the Firstborn of the New Creation.

Thus, Mary isn't truly Christ's mom, and Mary isn't "Queen of Heaven".

I am sorry to say this is not what the Bible says, and it is not what any Christian creed says. It would appear that it is not the Romans whose theology is somewhat lacking.

This isn't about a literal "woman". She's a symbol of something, just like the twelve stars and "moon under her feet" are. In fact, the ENTIRE book of Revelation is full symbolic figures. Claiming this as literal proof of Mary is just not intelligent.

I claimed nothing. I let Revelation speak for itself.

Those who have eyes to see, let them see.

 

[Rose_bud]

Originally Posted by pgp_protector
Then wouldn't we have to go to Mary via Mary's Mother?
[loop]
And Her Mother via Her Mother?
[/loop]
Exactly. I bought that point up, but being unable to refute it, they dodged it, and instead accused me of hating Mary, going off on tangents.

And where will we end up... by EVE....

Making everything Christ did pointless

 

[Catherineanne]

Then wouldn't we have to go to Mary via Mary's Mother?
[loop]
And Her Mother via Her Mother?
[/loop]

If you want to approach the Lord via any of his predecessors, then Matthew and Luke give you two genealogies of people to choose from.

Tradition tells us that his maternal grandmother is Saint Anna, and his maternal grandfather St Joachim.

Feel free.

 

[Catherineanne]

Originally Posted by pgp_protector
Then wouldn't we have to go to Mary via Mary's Mother?
[loop]
And Her Mother via Her Mother?
[/loop]
Exactly. I bought that point up, but being unable to refute it, they dodged it, and instead accused me of hating Mary, going off on tangents.

And where will we end up... by EVE....

Making everything Christ did pointless

Except of course nobody is suggesting this for a single moment.

Intercession is optional, not obligatory. Contrary to what is often assumed, even Romans can approach Christ directly, if they choose to do so.

 

[pgp_protector]

Then wouldn't we have to go to Mary via Mary's Mother?
[loop]
And Her Mother via Her Mother?
[/loop]

Exactly. I bought that point up, but being unable to refute it, they dodged it, and instead accused me of hating Mary, going off on tangents.

And where will we end up... by EVE....

Making everything Christ did pointless

But you can only get to Eve Via Adam, and Adam Via God & Now the Circle Is Complete