Is this statement about Mary blasphemous?

[Hairy Tic]

Mary fits the description of the bolded part, since (just like God) no one is able to come to Christ, except through her.

So it would appear, according to your own definition, that the statement about Mary in the OP, is blasphemous.

## If anyone comes to Christ through your witness, they are, in a real way, coming through you.

Why may not Mary too be a means of coming to Him, when every other Christian can be a means or way to Him ?

 

[Hairy Tic]

So?


This seems blasphemous to me, like God is incapable of making Christ human, except through a human woman. Yes, God chose Mary as a vessel, but it's not like God Almighty had to have a human woman. Thus, Mary really isn't a factor in coming to Christ, since the infinate God could've used any method He chose.

## He "could have" done many things He did not do - but He did in actuality choose, & come through, Mary. God does not need Bible or Church either - but He employs both. We need them - just as we need Mary. No Mary = no Jesus = no salvation.

It seems better to just not, then.

 

[Hairy Tic]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7471172-3/#post54840953

## All that link gave me was the message "invalid thread specified"

 

[Touma]

## If anyone comes to Christ through your witness, they are, in a real way, coming through you.

Why may not Mary too be a means of coming to Him, when every other Christian can be a means or way to Him ?

The only way for a person to come to Christ is at the impulse of the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from the Father.

Also to raise issue with what was posted in the OP. I went through the link and I found some disturbing things"

"So may the most powerful Virgin Mother, who once 'cooperated in love that the faithful might be born in the Church', be even now the means and mediatrix of our salvation. "

'She gave up her Mother's rights over her Son to procure the salvation of mankind, and to appease the divine justice, she, as much as she could, immolated her Son, so that one can truly affirm that together with Christ she has redeemed the human race."

"we know also that all things are imparted to us from God the Greatest and Best, through the hands of the Mother of God."

"May she, then, the most holy Mother of all the members of Christ, to whose Immaculate Heart we have confidently consecrated all people ... ask earnestly that most abundant streams of graces from the lofty Head may flow down on all the members of the Mystical body without interruption."

Might as well make her part of the Godhead. No where in Scripture will you find any reference to Mary as such. No where can you even see such things implied. Yes, she was a very good woman. A godly woman. A woman that all Christian ladies should try to emulate, for her dedication, sacrifice, and faith. I don't deny her that. But I deny anything saying that she worked with Christ to redeem the world. There is no way in Heaven or Hell anyone can read the Bible seriously and claim that.

 

[laconicstudent]

But I deny anything saying that she worked with Christ to redeem the world. There is no way in Heaven or Hell anyone can read the Bible seriously and claim that.

'26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed [2] to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!” [3] 29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. 30 And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”


34 And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?” [4]


35 And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born [5] will be called holy—the Son of God. 36 And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. 37 For nothing will be impossible with God.” 38 And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant [6] of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her."


Sorry, I see Mary working with God for our salvation.

 

[Touma]

'26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed [2] to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!” [3] 29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. 30 And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”


34 And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?” [4]


35 And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born [5] will be called holy—the Son of God. 36 And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. 37 For nothing will be impossible with God.” 38 And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant [6] of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her."


Sorry, I see Mary working with God for our salvation.

So her giving birth to Jesus is what saved me from my sins? I could have sworn it was Jesus willingly going to the Cross, dying for humanity and facing the weight of the Wrath of God, then rising victoriously from the grave, that saved me. Hmm. Must have read the wrong Bible or something.

 

[laconicstudent]

So her giving birth to Jesus is what saved me from my sins? I could have sworn it was Jesus willingly going to the Cross, dying for humanity and facing the weight of the Wrath of God, then rising victoriously from the grave, that saved me. Hmm. Must have read the wrong Bible or something.

Yes, but he had to Incarnate before he could be crucified. Did this really need to be explained? The Theotokos' submission to God facilitated everything that subsequently occurred.

 

[Fireinfolding]

God could have chosen another vessel if He wanted to, many would have probrobly have volunteered

 

[laconicstudent]

God could have chosen another vessel if He wanted to, many would have probrobly have volunteered

"could", "probrobly[sic]" and "would have" huh?

Well, we can't know that, can we, so since I'm not Paul Atreides, a Kwisatz Haderach, I'm not going to pretend that I can see across time and see what might have been/could be. I think I will simply continue to take the Theotokos' words at face value.


"All generations shall call me blessed"
--the Mother of God


YouTube - It Is Truly Meet

It is truly meet to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art ever blessed and all blameless and the Mother of our God. More honorable then the Cherubim, and more glorious beyond compare then the Seraphim. Thou who without stain bearest God the Word, and are truly Theotokos, we magnify thee!

 

[Fireinfolding]

"could", "probrobly[sic]" and "would have" huh?

Well, we can't know that, can we, so since I'm not Paul Atreides, a Kwisatz Haderach, I'm not going to pretend that I can see across time and see what might have been/could be. I think I will simply continue to take the Theotokos' words at face value.


"All generations shall call me blessed"
--the Mother of God


YouTube - It Is Truly Meet

It is truly meet to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art ever blessed and all blameless and the Mother of our God. More honorable then the Cherubim, and more glorious beyond compare then the Seraphim. Thou who without stain bearest God the Word, and are truly Theotokos, we magnify thee!

You and your youtubies I cant watch the dang things lol

Well, look at Sarah, she was laughing at the thought God would now give her this pleasure in respects to Isaac the Son (His only son) born of the promise, he called her on it too, nevertheless God performed His promise and we know theres nothing too hard for the Lord, if it was dependent on Sarah they'd probrobly be up poops crick without a paddle

 

[laconicstudent]

Well, look at Sarah, she was laughing at the thought God would now give her this pleasure in respects to Isaac the Son (His only son) born of the promise, he called her on it too, nevertheless God performed His promise and we know theres nothing too hard for the Lord, if it was dependent on Sarah they'd probrobly be up poops crick without a paddle

But it wasn't Sarah who was selected as Theotokos, it was Mary. Your point, veracity aside, isn't salient.

 

[Touma]

Yes, but he had to Incarnate before he could be crucified. Did this really need to be explained? The Theotokos' submission to God facilitated everything that subsequently occurred.

So if I submit to God as a Christian, and speak the Gospel to someone, who has saved that person? Me speaking the words, or God, who is responsible for salvation alone. Christ alone gets the glory for Salvation, no matter who bore Him. He alone decided to go to the Cross. No one could have stopped Him,nor could have forced Him. She bore him, yes, but He would have come even if she would have told God that she didn't want to bear the Child. Jesus Christ is eternal. His plan since the beginning was to come. Mary was a created being, who was used in the plan, but should not be considered co-redemptrix (She had no say as to whether or not He would go to the cross). And if we are to consider her so, why not consider others? Sure, she gave birth to him. But what about some random man who gave him food when he was hungry? That guy allowed Jesus to get nutrition, and thus allowed him to continue his life until the cross. Should we venerate that man too, for his role in the plan of salvation? I would hope not.

 

[laconicstudent]

So if I submit to God as a Christian, and speak the Gospel to someone, who has saved that person? Me speaking the words, or God, who is responsible for salvation alone. Christ alone gets the glory for Salvation, no matter who bore Him. He alone decided to go to the Cross. No one could have stopped Him,nor could have forced Him.

Okay, great. I suppose you can ignore Mary's contribution if you really want to. Your argument is based on a hypothetical situation in which Mary tried to stop him. I'm not going to base my theology on that.

She bore him, yes, but He would have come even if she would have told God that she didn't want to bear the Child.

God as a rapist. Delightful image you create for us.

Or perhaps you are suggesting that He would have been born of another? Well, in that case we would be venerating another name as the Theotokos, wouldn't we? Again, a hypothetical.

Jesus Christ is eternal. His plan since the beginning was to come. Mary was a created being, who was used in the plan, but should not be considered co-redemptrix (She had no say as to whether or not He would go to the cross).

She sure seemed to think she had a say at the Annunciation.

And if we are to consider her so, why not consider others? Sure, she gave birth to him. But what about some random man who gave him food when he was hungry? That guy allowed Jesus to get nutrition, and thus allowed him to continue his life until the cross. Should we venerate that man too, for his role in the plan of salvation? I would hope not.

But we do....

Troparion (Tone 2)
Proclaim the wonder, O Joseph,
to David, the ancestor of God:
you saw a Virgin great with Child,
you gave glory with the shepherds,
you worshipped with the Magi,
you received the news from the angel.
Pray to Christ God to save our souls!
​

 

[Hairy Tic]

The Church on Mary's Mediation

3) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Octobri mense adventante, Sept 22, 1891, ASS 24, 1891, 196.
"... just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother."


Jesus said in John 6:44:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him..."

So wouldn't stating that we can't come to Christ except through Mary be blasphemous, since this statement puts her in the role of God?

And doesn't putting her in this role (that we MUST go through Mary) give her a godlike status, making her an idol?

## Context is essential here - not of the words only, but, much more, of the realities they point to.

1. That statement does not Mary put into the role of God - it does not imply she is or must or even could be God; the very idea, is insanity.

It does take for granted several truths that are part and parcel of being Catholic. And several of these, are either unfamiliar to, seen in a different context by, denied by, or not much emphasised by Evangelical Protestants.

The place of Mary the Mother of God in our salvation cannot, cannot, cannot be seen in isolation. She is not autonomous, any more than any other creature. She "makes sense", "holds together", only in Christ. Nothing said about her can be rightly understood otherwise. And in this context, her Divine Son, she makes perfect sense. So do all the great affirmations about her - for her Son is a "fence around" her, the essential condition of her being who she is. He is her "environment" - & the environment for all that is said of her by the Church.

So, He has the primacy in all things - within the scope of His primacy, she "lives and moves and has her being". All holiness & grace is His - therefore, she can have a share in it. Christians are lights in the world - because He is the Light of the World. Christians are trample satan underfoot, because He has broken satan's power. And how can she be denied a share in what her fellow-members of Christ are given grace to do ?

She is & acts "in, with, and under" Her Son - as are & do we. And if, in God's disposing, Apostles can be the means through whom we receive the Word of God written - how can she, through whom we receive the Word Incarnate, be different ? If they can be means of God's salvation, how can she not ? Change the troublesome words to:

"Just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Holy Word and the preaching of the Gospel" - & we have a Protestant insight. The structure of the idea is identical w/that of the Catholic idea, & the content is very nearly identical. The Mother of God, & the Bible, function in very similar ways. The veneration & love that is found troublesome if given to Mary, is readily given to the Bible - yet the Bible is no more the Spirit of God, than Mary is. Both are "energised" by God to be means of His salvation. Neither is necessary, both may be mis-used, yet both are precious of God's love to His Chirch & world.

The Apostles mediated, were means to making known, the saving work of Christ; they were not that work, & were not Christ. So with her - she mediates what she is not, & Who she is not, through His power & grace. Not because she is anything. But because her Son works mightily through her.

Did God need St. Paul ? What a ridiculous idea ! Neither does He "need" to inspire Apostles to write. God needs nothing, & is well able to convert all men in an instant - but this is not how He has worked. All creatures are needless - those we value & take for granted, as much as those we do not trouble with. But we, do need these things, for that is the sort of world He has created.

We do not "have to" go through Mary; the Pope is not stating a duty - but describing a reality: that the salvation of the human race involves the agency of Mary: because without her, we would not have her Son. She is the one whose vocation was to be nothing but a mother - to God Incarnate, God-with-us, Himself. We go to Mary, to find Christ - for where she is, He cannot not be. Just as we go to all His Saints, & find only Him. A Saint free of Christ is not possible. To love her, is part of our love to her Son; we are not taught to make her His rival. That is not what she is for; she is for Him, & therefore, for us also.

Hope that helps [BTW, adventante in the title is of the Encyclical is a mistake - someone somewhere's Latin needs "brushing up"; for it should be adveniente]

 

[Fireinfolding]

But it wasn't Sarah who was selected as Theotokos, it was Mary. Your point, veracity aside, isn't salient.

Either way He could have chosen anyone, besides in relation to chosing even in respects to Jacob and Esau one was chosen before they even did anything good or bad so that it might stand that its by His calling and election

 

[Cain Spencer]

...yes, that statement is heretical.

 

[Hairy Tic]

Mary fits the description of the bolded part, since (just like God) no one is able to come to Christ, except through her.

## And what this means, needs to be understood, from the POV of those who say it. Would you go to a Catholic for an exposition of the "Five Solas" ? If not, why go to Protestants who take a dim view of Catholic ideas about Mary for an exposition of those ideas ?

So it would appear, according to your own definition, that the statement about Mary in the OP, is blasphemous.

## No more blasphemous than the blasphemous teaching that a crucified man is God-with-us. Deuteronomy 21:23 curses Jesus by anticipation. This doesn't bother St. Paul in the slightest; or St. Peter - they both knew the verse: "Cursed is he that hangeth on a tree". Hebrews 13 exploits what this meant - it is not a problem, that Jesus went "outside the camp". On the contrary, this suggests a fresh line of thought to the author that helps him make his point.

Objections to belief, are often reasons for belief, in disguise.

Isaiah has God saying "My Glory I will not give to another" - yet St.John ascribes to Jesus the Glory due to God: see Revelation 5. Only Christians committed such blasphemy - the Jews didn't: they obeyed Scripture. And Catholics & Orthodox, but not most Protestants, honour the mother of Jesis as the Mother of God-with-us - for she is. If the Bible did not prevent the adoration of Jesus as God Incarnate, despite its clear prohibition of such blasphemy - why should Christians not honour as dear to God the Mother of God-with-us ?

The two "blasphemies" go together. Protestants claim to follow the Bible, & want to - but they ignore what it says as well, & behave just as we who venerate the Mother of God-with-us behave. They adore Christ, despite Scripture (from a Jewish POV) & because they are Christians with faith; we adore Christ, despite Scripture, & honour His Mother, despite Scripture (according to some of them) because we are Christians with faith.

 

[Hairy Tic]

So?


This seems blasphemous to me, like God is incapable of making Christ human, except through a human woman. Yes, God chose Mary as a vessel, but it's not like God Almighty had to have a human woman. Thus, Mary really isn't a factor in coming to Christ, since the infinate God could've used any method He chose.

## The issue is, not what God is able to do - but, what He has, in fact, done.

Suppose God the Word had not come to us as the Son of Mary - how else does He become a man ? Even if Mary had not been His mother - that she was, is based on the Love of God, & not on anything in her; that God chose her to be the mother of His Son, is totally from God's grace - he would have to be the Son of some woman. Human natures don't exist by themselves - they are realised in human persons. And the Word was not a man "until" He assumed into Himself our human nature; the nature which was His by virtue of His being "made flesh" as a man.

He was fully human, & humans come from...humans - not out of nowhere. He was not man-like, or pretending to be truly a man when He was no such thing: this man, is God Incarnate; nothing less. God has become "one of us". He has become a character in His own story - not surprisingly, as He is the Hero of it, the whole point of it. He is God able to hunger, thirst, sorrow, weep, rejoice, just as we do - because He is as genuinely hunan as any of us. In fact, He is more human than we are, because He is not crippled, perverted, blinded, wounded, coarsened by any sin of his own, unlike us. He is - it seems safe to say - what Adam was meant to be; but He is this, in a world gone wrong.

How could he be a man, without being born of a woman ? God "could have" created a human nature from nothing, no doubt - but if the Word is not "made flesh" "of our flesh", if He belongs to a separate race, He is not our Kinsman-Redeemer, nor our Mediator, but a (very friendly) Being not descended from Adam. Unless He is of our race, He is not "God with us".

It seems better to just not, then.

 

[Hairy Tic]

Nonsense. He would say, who says that she is? Being polite to my mum is not the same thing as calling her a god, and being civil is not blasphemy.

On the other hand, ignoring her completely and pretending she does not exist is highly disrespectful. As is any suggestion whatever of calling her 'just a vessel.'

## In fairness to the OP - the vessel idea is more respectful than it looks - St. Paul is a "vessel of election" (= chosen vessel) in Acts 9.15. He has a bit to say about "vessels of honour" & "vessels of dishonour" in Romans, in his treatment of election. And his imagery is taken from Jeremiah. See also:

• http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%204:6-7&version=KJV

The choice of imagery is not as de-humanising as it may seem - for the Jews, God was so "solidly" Personal, that man faded into obscurity by comparison. God is, in a way, the only character in the OT (I owe that to Chesterton BTW - I forget which of his books the idea appears in.)

 

[Hairy Tic]

Kontakion 1
To Thee, the champion leader, do we Thy servants dedicate a hymn of victory and thanksgiving, as ones who have been delivered from eternal death by the Grace of Christ our God Who was born of Thee and by Thy maternal mediation before Him. As Thou dost have invincible might, free us from all misfortunes and sorrowful circumstances who cry aloud:
Rejoice, O Virgin Theotokos, full of Grace, Joy of all who sorrow!


Ikos 1
An archangel was sent from Heaven to declare unto the Theotokos: Rejoice, announcing the divine Incarnation of Christ, Who desired to be born of Her, the Joy of the whole world which was languishing in sorrow. Wherefore, heavy laden with sins, but having obtained the hope of salvation in Thee, we cry out to Thee with compunction:
Rejoice, goodwill of God toward sinners!
Rejoice, strong help for those who repent before the Lord God!
Rejoice, restoration of fallen Adam!
Rejoice, redemption of the tears of Eve!
Rejoice, Thou that dost remove the stain of sin!
Rejoice, laver that dost wash the conscience clean!
Rejoice, Thou that didst bear the Redeemer Who freely cleanseth us of our transgressions!
Rejoice, all-wonderous reconciliation of all with God!
Rejoice, bridge that dost truly lead us from death to life!
Rejoice, Thou that savest the world from the flood of sin!
Rejoice, heavenly ladder by which the Lord descended to us!
Rejoice, cause of deification for all!
Rejoice, O Virgin Theotokos, full of Grace, Joy of all who sorrow!

## Nice !

[SIZE=+1]Lord, have mercy.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Christ, have mercy.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Lord, have mercy.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Christ, hear us.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Christ, graciously hear us.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1] God the Father of heaven, have mercy on us.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] God the Son, Redeemer of the world...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] God the Holy Ghost...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Holy Trinity, one God...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1] Holy Mary, pray for us.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Holy Mother of God...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Holy Virgin of virgins...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Mother of Christ...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Mother of divine grace...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Mother most pure...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Mother most chaste...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Mother inviolate...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Mother undefiled...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Mother most amiable...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Mother most admirable...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Mother of good counsel...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Mother of our Creator...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Mother of our Saviour...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Virgin most prudent...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Virgin most venerable...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Virgin most renowned...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Virgin most powerful...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Virgin most merciful...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Virgin most faithful...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Mirror of justice...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Seat of wisdom...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Cause of our joy...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Spiritual vessel...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Vessel of honor...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Singular vessel of devotion...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Mystical rose...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Tower of David...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Tower of ivory...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] House of gold...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Ark of the covenant...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Gate of heaven...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Morning star...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Health of the sick...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Refuge of sinners...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Comforter of the afflicted...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Help of Christians...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Queen of angels...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Queen of patriarchs...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Queen of prophets...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Queen of apostles...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Queen of martyrs...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Queen of confessors...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Queen of virgins...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Queen of all saints... [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Queen conceived without original sin...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Queen assumed into heaven...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Queen of the most holy rosary...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Queen of peace...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1] Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world, spare us, O Lord.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world, graciously hear us, O Lord.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world, have mercy on us.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1] Pray for us, O holy Mother of God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1] Oremus (Let Us pray)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Grant, we beseech Thee, O Lord God, unto us Thy servants, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] That we may rejoice in continual health of mind and body; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] And, by the glorious intercession of Blessed Mary ever Virgin, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] May be delivered from present sorrow and enjoy eternal gladness. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] Through Christ Our Lord. Amen.[/SIZE]


​

http://www.memorare.com/mary/loreto.html