Is this statement about Mary blasphemous?

[Thekla]

9And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. 10And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

That was a vision Paul saw... And He saw this because it was Gods way of directing Him to preach the Gospel in Macedonia. It wasn't Paul praying to those no longer on this earth.

To repeat Laconicstudent, how was Paul able to know this ?

As you note, God revealed this to him; the distance was too far for Paul to "hear" the man praying him (Note the use of the terminology, praying, is applied to the man's request to Paul.)

How do the Saints who are with Christ, but not in their "tent" hear us ? The same way: God !

 

[laconicstudent]

Yes and that mans body was probably not 6 feet under the ground...

Ah, then you agree that the living can obtain intercession from other Christians.

 

[Thekla]

Yes and that mans body was probably not 6 feet under the ground...

Is it impossible for those people who are deaf to be Christians and hear God ?

 

[Rose_bud]

Ah, then you agree that the living can obtain intercession from other Christians.

???

 

[Thekla]

???

The verse states, "... and he prayed him (Paul) ...".

 

[Rose_bud]

Is it impossible for those people who are deaf to be Christians and hear God ?

No its possible, and its possible for any person with a disability to know God. But all of these have blood pumping through there veins. Alive "physically".

 

[laconicstudent]

No its possible, and its possible for any person with a disability to know God. But all of these have blood pumping through there veins. Alive "physically".

I wasn't aware that God was constrained by such things.

 

[Rose_bud]

The verse states, "... and he prayed him (Paul) ...".

notice that this is still a vision....He (the Macedonian Man, physically in Macedonai, not 6 feet below) prayed (asked) him (Paul, the guy who was to help him, by preaching the gospel)

Yes???

 

[Thekla]

No its possible, and its possible for any person with a disability to know God. But all of these have blood pumping through there veins. Alive "physically".

But you have just acknowledged that physical, functioning ears are not needed to hear God. And Christ teaches about the "spiritual ears" when He says, "He who has eras let him hear ...". It is not the blood pumping through our veins that makes us able to hear God.

Those who have died in Christ are in Christ, with Christ, still in the body of Christ.

 

[laconicstudent]

notice that this is still a vision....He (the Macedonian Man, physically in Macedonai, not 6 feet below) prayed (asked) him (Paul, the guy who was to help him, by preaching the gospel)

Yes???

Yes. And I, the American Man, physically in the United States of America, not 6 feet below, pray (ask) them (the Saints) to help me (by praying for me).

 

[Rose_bud]

Originally Posted by Rose_bud
notice that this is still a vision....He (the Macedonian Man, physically in Macedonai, not 6 feet below) prayed (asked) him (Paul ,the guy who was to help him, by preaching the gospel, physically in Troas, not 6 feet below)

Yes???

 

[Thekla]

notice that this is still a vision....He (the Macedonian Man, physically in Macedonai, not 6 feet below) prayed (asked) him (Paul, the guy who was to help him, by preaching the gospel)

Yes???

Yes, I noticed.

The spiritual ears do not depend on the "tent" (body) for hearing. Those who are in Christ are in agreement with the will of God, and desire that God's will be fulfilled "on earth as it is in heaven". Do those who die in Christ and remain in Him cease to love, cease to desire the will of God, cease to obey God toward the building up and support of the body of Christ ? God desires this; do those in Him and with Him cease to be in accord with the will of God ?

 

[laconicstudent]

Originally Posted by Rose_bud
notice that this is still a vision....He (the Macedonian Man, physically in Macedonai, not 6 feet below) prayed (asked) him (Paul ,the guy who was to help him, by preaching the gospel, physically in Troas, not 6 feet below)

Yes???

Would you just articulate your point?

 

[Rose_bud]

Yes, I noticed.

The spiritual ears do not depend on the "tent" (body) for hearing. Those who are in Christ are in agreement with the will of God, and desire that God's will be fulfilled "on earth as it is in heaven". Do those who die in Christ and remain in Him cease to love, cease to desire the will of God, cease to obey God toward the building up and support of the body of Christ ? God desires this; do those in Him and with Him cease to be in accord with the will of God ?

Could you please show me in scripture where God has said that he will allow those that are with Him, (i.e with there physical bodies 6 feet below) to hear and listen to our prayers...

I'll probably only receive your post in the morn, its kinda late this side of the globe
God Bless

 

[laconicstudent]

Could you please show me in scripture where God has said that he will allow those that are with Him, (i.e with there physical bodies 6 feet below) to hear and listen to our prayers...

Could you please show me in scripture where God has said that he won't allow those that are with Him to hear and listen to our prayers? Such a prohibition is contrary to Scripture and Patristics. It really doesn't make any sense.

By the Holy Spirit does man come to know the Lord, his Creator, and the Holy Spirit with His grace fills his entire being - his soul, his mind and his body.

The Lord gave the Saints His grace, and they loved Him and clung to Him utterly, for the sweetness of the love of God does not allow of love for the world and its beauty.

And if it be thus here on earth, how much closer will the Saints in heaven be united to the Lord in love! And this love is ineffably sweet and proceeds from the Holy Spirit, and all the heavenly hosts are nourished thereon.

God is love; and the Holy Spirit in the Saints is love. By the Holy Spirit is the Lord made known. By the Holy Spirit is the Lord magnified in heaven. By the Holy Spirit the Saints glorify God, and with the gifts of the Holy Spirit does the Lord give glory to the Saints, and this glory shall have no end.

To many people the Saints seem far removed from us. But the Saints are far only from people who have distanced themselves - they are very close to them that keep Christ's commandments and possess the grace of the Holy Spirit.

In heaven all things live and move in the Holy Spirit. But this same Holy Spirit is on earth, too. The Holy Spirit dwells in our Church; in the sacraments; in the Holy Scriptures; in the souls of the faithful. The Holy Spirit unites all men, and so the Saints are close to us; and when we pray to them they hear our prayers in the Holy Spirit, and our souls feel that they are praying for us.

The Saints live in another world, and there through the Holy Spirit they behold the glory of God and the beauty of the Lord's countenance. But in the same Holy Spirit they see our lives, too, and our deeds. They know our sorrows and hear our ardent prayers. In their lives they learned of the love of God from the Holy Spirit; and he who knows love on earth takes it with him into eternal life in the Kingdom of Heaven, where love grows and becomes perfect. And if love makes one unable to forget a brother here, how much more do the Saints remember and pray for us!

The holy Saints have attained the Kingdom of Heaven, and there they look upon the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ; but by the Holy Spirit they see, too, the sufferings of men on earth. The Lord gave them such great grace that they embrace the whole world with their love. They see and know how we languish in affliction, how our hearts have withered within us, how despondency has fettered our souls; and they never cease to intercede for us with God.

The Saints rejoice when we repent, and grieve when men forsake God and become like brute beasts. They grieve to see people living on earth and not realizing that if they were to love one another, the world would know freedom from sin; and where sin is absent there is joy and gladness from the Holy Spirit, in such wise that on all sides everything looks pleasing, and the soul marvels that all is so well with her, and praises God.

Call with faith upon the Mother of God and the Saints, and pray to them. They hear our prayers and known even our inmost thoughts.

And marvel not at this. Heaven and all the Saints live by the Holy Spirit and in the world there is naught hidden from the Holy Spirit. Once upon a time I did not understand how it was that the holy inhabitants of heaven could see our lives. But when the Mother of God brought my sins home to me I realized that they see us in the Holy Spirit, and know our entire lives.

The Saints hear our prayers and are possessed from God of the strength to help us. The whole Christian race knows this

​

Kontakion (Tone 2)
O Silouan, beloved of God,
Truly amazing preacher of humility
And radiance warmed by the love for mankind of the Holy Spirit:
The Russian Church rejoices in your labors.
All monks on the Athonite mountain
And all Christian people are rejoicing as well,
Turning themselves towards God with the love of children.
Beseech Him for us, you who have seen God and are equal to the angels, That burning with your love our souls may be saved.
​

 

[Dorothea]

Who says that Mary can hear what these on earth are speaking?

By the Holy Spirit. We are joined with the Body of Christ (in heaven and on Earth) by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dorothea]

Could you please show me in scripture where God has said that he will allow those that are with Him, (i.e with there physical bodies 6 feet below) to hear and listen to our prayers...

I'll probably only receive your post in the morn, its kinda late this side of the globe
God Bless

Ah, but there's the kicker! The saints in heaven can't hear us because their physical bodies are lying in a tomb. It's not the body in the tomb that is up in heaven with (until the Second Coming) Christ, but the SOULS of those who are alive in Christ!! And through the Holy Spirit, they are connected to us on Earth (the Body of Christ on heaven and earth).

It seems that you and addo (and maybe Mama) are confused by this because you all have a misunderstanding of the two different events of Christ's Dying on the Cross and Resurrection and His Second Coming. Here's what I wrote earlier this morning to addo. Hopefully, this will clear things up:

Wow. You are mixing up Christ's dying on the Cross and His Resurrection with His Second Coming. Two different and paramount events. When you mix these us, it makes me think of Jewish people still waiting for the Messiah to come and conquer sin/death.

Do you understand the Incarnation, why Christ died on the Cross and why He resurrected? Christ's death and resurrection are about our souls no longer waiting in the tombs for His return. He returned when he was incarnate by the Virgin Mary and the Holy Spirit, and through his death and resurrection, the souls of the righteous were released from their long wait in the tombs and able to enter His Kingdom once more.

Souls are separated from their bodies when they physically die on this Earth. Therefore, their souls rise as they are alive in Christ and with Christ. The part that you read about the dead will rise first is talking about those who passed physically on Earth before His Second Coming, where their souls are separate from their bodies...the bodies are still in their tombs on Earth, but their souls aren't. It is at that time when their souls and bodies are reunited, but their bodies are regenerated or glorified, if you will. This is when that happens, after final judgment --separating of goats and sheep.

Also, according to Scriptures all Christians are saints and holy. You have an example in Ephesians 1:1. So these "dead in Christ" are dead Christians (they resurrect first, so they are Christians, for they have eternal life; read Revelation 20:6)
​

Again, their bodies are dead, their souls aren't. This is why there are no "dead" Christians.

As far as Revelation 20:6:

Courtesy OSB notes:

20:4-6 Those who have died for their witness to Jesus are in heaven living and reigning with Him (Matt. 19:28; 2 Tim. 2:12) as royal priests (1:6; 5:9, 10; Is 61:6; 1 Pet. 2:9, 10) while the Church serves Him here on earth. The first resurrection (v. 6) is the heavenly life of souls who have died in Christ before His Second Coming. Those not in Christ who die are in Hades awaiting the resurrection of the body at His coming. For the righteous saints with Christ, the second death has no power (v. 6). These righteous spirits (Heb. 12:23) await only the reuniting of soul and body after the final judgment, when all things are made new (21:1). Hell or Hades (Sheol), where sinners' souls are separated from their bodies, will give up its dead to Gehenna (vv. 13, 14), the lake of fire which burns with sulphur (21:8), eternal damnation (Matt. 25:41), and these will be excluded from the blessedness of the age to come. Hell cannot hard the victorious in Christ (2:11).

 

[Unashamed Jesus Freak]

Who says that Mary can hear what these on earth are speaking?

I would like to see the Scriptures straight from the Word of God which says that Mary can hear people praying to her. Is that what you're asking for?

 

[laconicstudent]

"12 When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I [Raphael] offered thy prayer to the Lord."

Tobit 12:12

 

[Thekla]

Could you please show me in scripture where God has said that he will allow those that are with Him, (i.e with there physical bodies 6 feet below) to hear and listen to our prayers...

I'll probably only receive your post in the morn, its kinda late this side of the globe
God Bless

OK, I'm game; perhaps you could answer the questions I posed as well ?

"The four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Revelation 5:8).

The prayers of the saints (those on earth) are offered by those in heaven to God.

From the OT:

15 Thus says the Lord:
A voice is heard in Ramah,
lamentation and bitter weeping.
Rachel is weeping for her children;
she refuses to be comforted for her children,
because they are no more.
16 Thus says the Lord:
Keep your voice from weeping,
and your eyes from tears;
for there is a reward for your work,
says the Lord:
they shall come back from the land of the enemy;
17 there is hope for your future,
says the Lord:
your children shall come back to their own country.

Jeremiah 31

Rachel died in childbirth, before Joseph was sold into slavery, and before the exile.

Verse 15 is quoted in Matthew, re: the death of the innocents. In Jewish understanding, the passage is also the intercession of Rachel to God (so I have included His answer).

Recall the Psalmist attests:

If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in Sheol*, behold, thou art there. Psalm 139:8

(the KJV has hell, which in modern use tends to be associated with Gehenna; the Hebrew has Sheol, and the LXX has Hades here)

The Jews had been asking for the intercessions of Rachel for centuries by the time of Christ (according to several references, first by her son Joseph as he passed by her tomb on the way to his slavery in Egypt). Compare this with Christ's use of the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazaros -- the impossibility of communication is between those in the Bosom of Abraham and those in a place of agony.