Is this statement about Mary blasphemous?

[laconicstudent]

I always have thought that the fact that the martyrs under the altar in Revelations know what is occurring on the Earth (specifically, they know their blood has not been avenged yet, hence their calling out to God to ask him when that avenging will occur) indicates that the reposed do have awareness of Earthly events.

 

[Dorothea]

OK, I'm game; perhaps you could answer the questions I posed as well ?

The prayers of the saints (those on earth) are offered by those in heaven to God.

From the OT:

Rachel died in childbirth, before Joseph was sold into slavery, and before the exile.

Verse 15 is quoted in Matthew, re: the death of the innocents. In Jewish understanding, the passage is also the intercession of Rachel to God (so I have included His answer).

Recall the Psalmist attests:

If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in Sheol*, behold, thou art there. Psalm 139:8

(the KJV has hell, which in modern use tends to be associated with Gehenna; the Hebrew has Sheol, and the LXX has Hades here)

The Jews had been asking for the intercessions of Rachel for centuries by the time of Christ (according to several references, first by her son Joseph as he passed by her tomb on the way to his slavery in Egypt). Compare this with Christ's use of the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazaros -- the impossibility of communication is between those in the Bosom of Abraham and those in a place of agony.

 

[Dorothea]

I always have thought that the fact that the martyrs under the altar in Revelations know what is occurring on the Earth (specifically, they know their blood has not been avenged yet, hence their calling out to God to ask him when that avenging will occur) indicates that the reposed do have awareness of Earthly events.

Yes. The souls in heaven obviously have a different awareness than we do on earth. That would be a no-brainer to me.

 

[MamaZ]

Yes. The souls in heaven obviously have a different awareness than we do on earth. That would be a no-brainer to me.

awareness to what? Earth or the heavenlies?

 

[Dorothea]

awareness to what? Earth or the heavenlies?

In both. Did you read what laconicstudent said about the verse in Revelation? The Saints know what's going on down on Earth. What Thekla said about the bowls of the prayers of the saints on earth given by the Saints in Heaven with God, over to God.

My question is why wouldn't the Saints have more awareness? They are not on Earth, they are out of human time and limitations. They are in the presence of God, and the Body of Christ is connected in heaven and on Earth by the Holy Spirit. The souls are there with Christ.

 

[simonthezealot]

Really? Am I the only one in the world to point out that RC's have ascribed godlike qualities to her? Have you really never heard, except now? Aren't there tons of people on this forum who feel that way? Are you really saying there are not MILLIONS of people who feel the same way?

They have placed-created a deistic identity around Mary.

The Mary of the bible and the Catholic Mary are NOT one in the same.

 

[MamaZ]

They have placed-created a deistic identity around Mary.

The Mary of the bible and the Catholic Mary are NOT one in the same.

 

[laconicstudent]

They have placed-created a deistic identity around Mary.

The Mary of the bible and the Catholic Mary are NOT one in the same.

*waves hello to the restatement of the baseless assertion without any backing from Scripture or Patristics*

 

[addo]

I always have thought that the fact that the martyrs under the altar in Revelations know what is occurring on the Earth (specifically, they know their blood has not been avenged yet, hence their calling out to God to ask him when that avenging will occur) indicates that the reposed do have awareness of Earthly events.

Are you referring to Revelation 6:9-11?

 

[Virgil the Roman]

No. It is not blasphemy.

 

[Tangible]

I always have thought that the fact that the martyrs under the altar in Revelations know what is occurring on the Earth (specifically, they know their blood has not been avenged yet, hence their calling out to God to ask him when that avenging will occur) indicates that the reposed do have awareness of Earthly events.

I think there is enough evidence to say that they have a certain amount of limited, general knowledge about events that affect them, but note that they are actually seeking information from an omniscient source rather than observing and gathering information directly on their own. If they were as aware as some might think, they would have no need to ask for information.

To make the leap to them having knowledge of specific events, with influence available to dole out, and to say that they have the ability to be aware of being invoked and the ability receive communication from those on earth is another thing altogether.

 

[Magnus Maximus]

The Pope, the President and King Solomon all have human mothers and fathers. Christ did not.

Christ gains his humanity ONLY through Mary. Therefore, and in this context only, humanity access God through Mary. Not as mediatrix, but as the means by which the Incarnation was effected.

Catholics can and do use Mary as mediatrix, but it is not compulsory. If you don't want to do it, then don't do it.

That is a great explanation, thank you

 

[MoNiCa4316]

The Church on Mary's Mediation

3) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Octobri mense adventante, Sept 22, 1891, ASS 24, 1891, 196.
"... just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother."


Jesus said in John 6:44:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him..."

So wouldn't stating that we can't come to Christ except through Mary be blasphemous, since this statement puts her in the role of God?

And doesn't putting her in this role (that we MUST go through Mary) give her a godlike status, making her an idol?

this statement means that Mary gave us Jesus, (which she did..) and that she intercedes for us... Catholics don't believe that Mary is a goddess or divine, she is human. But she is His Mother and gave Him human nature. We would not have salvation if it wasn't for the Incarnation.

 

[MamaZ]

this statement means that Mary gave us Jesus, (which she did..) and that she intercedes for us... Catholics don't believe that Mary is a goddess or divine, she is human. But she is His Mother and gave Him human nature. We would not have salvation if it wasn't for the Incarnation.

Which was wrought by God and not Mary.

 

[MamaZ]

Mary did not one day wake up and say I think I will have the Messiah.. Then summon God and discuss this plan with Him and He agree to this plan.

 

[jckstraw72]

Mary did not one day wake up and say I think I will have the Messiah.. Then summon God and discuss this plan with Him and He agree to this plan.

no one would claim that she did. she was far too humble to expect herself to be the mother of the Messiah. but when approached with such an awesome task, she humbly accepted the will of God.

 

[laconicstudent]

Which was wrought by God and not Mary.

Um, the Incarnation was wrought by God, and also by Mary, unless you don't believe that Jesus was at one point a blastocyst which implanted in her uterine lining.....

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Which was wrought by God and not Mary.

Mary said yes

 

[katherine2001]

And God would not have forced Mary to do it against her will. Could God have forced her to do it, of course, he could. However, God doesn't use His power to force people to do things against their will. That is why sin is still in the world. He will not violate our free will, because that is how true love works. Love that is not freely given is not really love at all.

 

[Hairy Tic]

The Church on Mary's Mediation

3) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Octobri mense adventante, Sept 22, 1891, ASS 24, 1891, 196.
"... just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother."


Jesus said in John 6:44:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him..."

So wouldn't stating that we can't come to Christ except through Mary be blasphemous, since this statement puts her in the role of God?

And doesn't putting her in this role (that we MUST go through Mary) give her a godlike status, making her an idol?

## Look at that statement in a wider context as well:

God chose:

• Earth - no other planet
• man - no other primate
• Israel - no other nation

He comes to us through

• Abraham
• Isaac
• Jacob
• Judah
• David

as well - there is gradual narrowing & definition, until He comes through that virgin in Israel, & not any other. Mary is the final term in a process of election, or of elimination of alternatives. Why Israel, & not Egypt ? Why man, & not Brontosaurs ? Why Seth, & not Cain ? Why David, & not another of his brothers ? Why Mary, & not Elizabeth ?

Because it was the good pleasure of the Father to do as He did do is why

Then Jesus is born, from Mary's womb, & He widens the focus again, oiut from that house in Nazareth, to the whole world - Mary is the mid-point between the human family into which Jesus is born, & the family of His brothers & sisters & mother who do His Father's Will. All human history, all creation, converges in Him, & this is possible because He is both Son of God and Son of Mary. He Whom "the Heaven of heavens cannot contain", was contained in Mary.

So she is incredibly important to the entire human race. Coming to Mary is an example of a pattern, found in the Bible & in creation.