Is this is a legitimate way to understand the title "Co-Redemptrix"?

[bbbbbbb]

That's becasue you have it backwards. Scripture is found in Oral Tradition, not the other way around.

Oral Tradition is very much amoeba-like in that it consists of whatever the leadership of a particular denomination such as your says it is. It is fluid and subject to evolving doctrines and trends.

 

[concretecamper]

It is disingenuous to assert that the Orthodox belief in purging after death is synonymous with the Catholic dogma of Purgarptory

it is equally disingenuous to assert only Catholics believe in purging after death.

The Orthodox belief is much less clearly articulated and is not a dogma requisite for all members of the Orthodox Church.

thank to for confirming my post.

You have no divine revelation telling you exactly the terms of a place known as Purgatory which is dogmatised in your religion.

there is nothing dogmatised that ain't in divine revelation. You of course can try to prove otherwise.

 

[bbbbbbb]

it is equally disingenuous to assert only Catholics believe in purging after death.
thank to for confirming my post.
there is nothing dogmatised that ain't in divine revelation. You of course can try to prove otherwise.

I certainly never said that only Catholics believe in purging after death. Some Jews do, as well, not to mention several non-Christian religions. The concept is hardly unique to any particular religion. What is unique to Catholicism is the dogma of Purgatory. Purgatory as defined by the Catholic Church is quite specific even though modern Catholic apologists have been working hard to give it a kinder and gentler face.

 

[concretecamper]

Oral Tradition is very much amoeba-like in that it consists of whatever the leadership of a particular denomination such as your says it is. It is fluid and subject to evolving doctrines and trends.

Since you didnt object to my statement, I take it as you agree with me. As far as fluid beliefs, dont look much beyond protestantism

 

[bbbbbbb]

Since you didnt object to my statement, I take it as you agree with me. As far as fluid beliefs, dont look much beyond protestantism

I agree with you that your church has defined scripture contrary to the Council of Trent which actually specifically stated the books contained within the canon of scripture. Today, however, Catholic theology has demoted written scripture into that vast, amoeba-like thing called Oral Tradition, such that when a priest holds up a Bible during mass and loudly proclaims, "This is the Word of the Lord. This is the Word of the Lord. This is the Word of the Lord." what he really means is that the Bible is actually a subset of the Word of the Lord.

 

[concretecamper]

I certainly never said that only Catholics believe in purging after death. Some Jews do, as well, not to mention several non-Christian religions. The concept is hardly unique to any particular religion. What is unique to Catholicism is the dogma of Purgatory

thank you for revising the initial false claim.

What is unique to Catholicism is the dogma of Purgatory. Purgatory as defined by the Catholic Church is quite specific

really, the Catholic Church is quite specific on defining purgatory? Then why did you say this?

Today there is no clear consensus within the Catholic Church concerning exactly what Purgatory is and what it is not.

I guess one of these two statements is correct.

 

[concretecamper]

I agree with you that your church has defined scripture contrary to the Council of Trent which actually specifically stated the books contained within the canon of

it was defined in a council prior to Trent.

Today, however, Catholic theology has demoted written scripture into that vast, amoeba-like thing called Oral Tradition, such that when a priest holds up a Bible during mass and loudly proclaims, "This is the Word of the Lord. This is the Word of the Lord. This is the Word of the Lord." what he really means is that the Bible is actually a subset of the Word of the Lord.

Is there a point here?

 

[bbbbbbb]

thank you for revising the initial false claim.

really, the Catholic Church is quite specific on defining purgatory? Then why did you say this?


I guess one of these two statements is correct.

Actually, this seems to be a both/and reality where both mutually contradictory statements are true. Segments within the Catholic Church hold very much to a traditional, very specific understanding of Purgatory while, at the very same time, other segments are busy modifying the understanding to a rather vague concept of "purgation". Of course, both cannot be true, but for many Catholics it has become a confusing (at best) doctrine.

 

[bbbbbbb]

it was defined in a council prior to Trent.
Is there a point here?

Yes, this is true, but IMO Trent totally nailed the canon.

The point is simply that Oral Tradition is so utterly ill-defined, that, try as one will, one can never determine exactly what or what it does not contain, either in the past nor in the present.

 

[concretecamper]

Actually, this seems to be a both/and reality where both mutually contradictory statements are true

Ok then.

 

[concretecamper]

The point is simply that Oral Tradition is so utterly ill-defined, that, try as one will, one can never determine exactly what or what it does not contain, either in the past nor in the present

as you have pointed out, your statements can be true and false at the same time.

 

[bbbbbbb]

as you have pointed out, your statements can be true and false at the same time.

Depending on the individuals, beliefs can be perceived as unalterable truth which are mutually contradictory. The fact, of course, is that one or the other belief might be true or both might be false but both cannot actually be true.

 

[Athanasias]

So, the Catholic afterlife has an extra dimension compared to Protestant/similar denominations, namely Purgatory. Based on my reading of Dante's Purgatorio, I came up with an idea for how Mary might be described as a "Co-Redemptrix" in such a way as does not imply equality with Christ or even a role in Christ's direct work of redemption as such. Basically, my idea is that there is an analogy between being saved from Hell, and being liberated from Purgatory, such that Mary plays a special role in accelerating the purification of souls in Purgatory, wherefore she is a "Co-Redemptrix." Christ is the only one Who saves souls from the fire of Hell, and He also is the only one Who makes it possible for souls to enter into Purgatory in the first place, but once souls are there, Mary is able to do something personal in herself, that "redeems" those souls from the lesser fire in question.

I realize the title in question is not dogmatic for the RCC so it might be something of a moot point or whatever, but I have a very high Mariology so I am interested in "promoting the cause," so to speak.

Yes what you say about purgagtory and Mary is correct and spot on. She is coredemtrix in that way. But the way reason why she is coredemprtix is her role as Second Eve. This is something the early Fathers of the Church like the epsitle of Mathetes to Diognetus(130 A.d) and St. Justin Martyr(150's) and St. Ireneaus(180's) saw. They saw that God in Mary and Jesus recapitulated what happened in the fall. This is the beauty of it. She co-redeems with Christ by her yes to Gabriel and her willingness to bring Jesus the savior into the world.

Here is a demonstration of this as new eve.

Mary as New Eve:

Old Testament:
· In Genesis Eve is described as a "Women"(Gen 3:13-16) who disobeyed God.
· Genesis describes one woman (Eve) and one man (Adam) who are created initially immaculate.
· The woman and man are approached by one angel (who is fallen, the Devil Gen 3:1-5 )
· they choose freely to disobey God
· They eat one food from one tree(Gen 3:3) that would cause death for a whole race.

New Testament recapitulation

· In Luke one woman (Mary) is visited by one angel (who is holy, Gabriel LK 1:28)

· This one woman(Mary) freely chooses to obey and accept God's plan for her, unlike Eve(be it done unto me according to thy word Lk 1:38).


· This one women would give birth to one man Jesus Christ(Lk 2:7) who would die for all on a Tree(Act 5:30) and give the world one food to eat that would give life to the whole human race (Holy Communion Jn 6:54-58).

The early Church on Mary as New Eve

“For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin."
[St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1(A.D. 180)]

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yes what you say about purgagtory and Mary is correct and spot on. She is coredemtrix in that way. But the way reason why she is coredemprtix is her role as Second Eve. This is something the early Fathers of the Church like the epsitle of Mathetes to Diognetus(130 A.d) and St. Justin Martyr(150's) and St. Ireneaus(180's) saw. They saw that God in Mary and Jesus recapitulated what happened in the fall. This is the beauty of it. She co-redeems with Christ by her yes to Gabriel and her willingness to bring Jesus the savior into the world.

Here is a demonstration of this as new eve.

Mary as New Eve:

Old Testament:
· In Genesis Eve is described as a "Women"(Gen 3:13-16) who disobeyed God.
· Genesis describes one woman (Eve) and one man (Adam) who are created initially immaculate.
· The woman and man are approached by one angel (who is fallen, the Devil Gen 3:1-5 )
· they choose freely to disobey God
· They eat one food from one tree(Gen 3:3) that would cause death for a whole race.

New Testament recapitulation

· In Luke one woman (Mary) is visited by one angel (who is holy, Gabriel LK 1:28)

· This one woman(Mary) freely chooses to obey and accept God's plan for her, unlike Eve(be it done unto me according to thy word Lk 1:38).


· This one women would give birth to one man Jesus Christ(Lk 2:7) who would die for all on a Tree(Act 5:30) and give the world one food to eat that would give life to the whole human race (Holy Communion Jn 6:54-58).

The early Church on Mary as New Eve

“For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin."
[St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1(A.D. 180)]

In a certain sense, all Christians are also co-redeemers with Christ when we say "yes" to His offer of salvation.

 

[Athanasias]

In a certain sense, all Christians are also co-redeemers with Christ when we say "yes" to His offer of salvation.

Amen! yes! St. Paul also talks about this as well!

 

[JLHargus]

So, the Catholic afterlife has an extra dimension compared to Protestant/similar denominations, namely Purgatory. Based on my reading of Dante's Purgatorio, I came up with an idea for how Mary might be described as a "Co-Redemptrix" in such a way as does not imply equality with Christ or even a role in Christ's direct work of redemption as such. Basically, my idea is that there is an analogy between being saved from Hell, and being liberated from Purgatory, such that Mary plays a special role in accelerating the purification of souls in Purgatory, wherefore she is a "Co-Redemptrix." Christ is the only one Who saves souls from the fire of Hell, and He also is the only one Who makes it possible for souls to enter into Purgatory in the first place, but once souls are there, Mary is able to do something personal in herself, that "redeems" those souls from the lesser fire in question.

I realize the title in question is not dogmatic for the RCC so it might be something of a moot point or whatever, but I have a very high Mariology so I am interested in "promoting the cause," so to speak.

JL: As you correctly post it is not a doctrine, and Mary is certainly not anywhere equal to Christ but she is highly blessed by Him. The following is how I understand it. Theologians have differing views.

[Ex25:20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. 21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. 22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.] k

Blessings come to those faithful who take the Ark into their home. As Christ said from the cross woman behold thy son and to the beloved disciple behold thy mother. And the disciple took her into his home. Mary is spiritual mother to all the Lord’s beloved disciples.

In giving birth to Christ all grace comes thorough her, because Christ the source of all grace came through her. Mary could have said no. Yet she said behold the handmaid of the Lord let it be done to me according to thy word. Mary co-operated (co-redeemed) freely, willingly and fully without self interest submitting totally to God.

All the people of God at different levels are co-redeemers, mediators, and advocates, by witnessing, correcting, praying or offering our sufferings in union with Christ for those who are in need of grace. When we suffer, witness, pray or live for Christ we co-redeem, mediate and advocate (co=with Christ redeem).

God chose Mary to touch all humanity thru her mediation between God and man, thereby co-redeeming in union with Christ. Our co-redeeming touches maybe one or two or even thousands, depending on the person and the grace God gives to our co-redeeming acts. If we do nothing, with our gift, we may lose our own soul as the man who didn’t even get interest on the talent given him by the Lord, Mt 25:24-30. This does not take away from Christ the one redeemer, mediator and advocate. Christ shares his mediatorship and all he has and is with his people. He shares his priesthood, kingship and being prophet with all his people. Christ makes us a royal priesthood, kings and prophets sending us to be witnesses thereby co=with Christ, redeemers.

[Col1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:] k

Just as Paul we too uniting with Christ our sufferings, joys, prayers and works become co-redeemers with Christ. Christ's afflictions lack nothing, but he wants us to share in his work, which is our priestly duty. Why waste a suffering offer it up to God for the salvation of souls.

[Rm15:16 for my being a servant of Jesus Christ to the nations, acting as priest in the good news of God, that the offering up of the nations may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.] YLT Biblegateway,

[1Cor3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building,] k

[3Jn1:8 We therefore ought to receive such, that we might be fellowhelpers to the truth.] k

[Jms5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.] k

[Jude1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.] k

[1Tm4:15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.] k

Mary is unique as the OT ark of the covenant was unique and honored because of the special presents of God. Mary alone among all the billions of human beings was chosen by God to conceive in her womb God made flesh. Mother of God, is only one of the great things God has done to her and the reason All generations will call her blessed.

[Lk1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.] k

Catholic’s and Orthodox thru all generations have called Mary blessed because of the great things, plural, God has done to Mary.
KJV Biblegateway

 

[GodsGrace101]

JL: As you correctly post it is not a doctrine, and Mary is certainly not anywhere equal to Christ but she is highly blessed by Him. The following is how I understand it. Theologians have differing views.

Will read your post with interest...
The only statement I can make now is that @Ripheus27 is making up his very own theology.
To which you are replying....

[Ex25:20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. 21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. 22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.] k

Blessings come to those faithful who take the Ark into their home. As Christ said from the cross woman behold thy son and to the beloved disciple behold thy mother. And the disciple took her into his home. Mary is spiritual mother to all the Lord’s beloved disciples.

What you say can be true.
It can also be true that Jesus wanted Mary to be taken care of and entrusted her to John.
I just doubt that John needed a spiritual mother.
He did not live with her indefinitely...he preached the gospel just like the other Apostles did.

In giving birth to Christ all grace comes thorough her, because Christ the source of all grace came through her. Mary could have said no. Yet she said behold the handmaid of the Lord let it be done to me according to thy word. Mary co-operated (co-redeemed) freely, willingly and fully without self interest submitting totally to God.

I used to teach catechism and I used to speak about the great YES of Mary and how WE also are to follow her lead and say yes to God.

However, we here are adults, so let's look at this in a more mature way.
Mary could have said no.....
And here we come face to face with God's sovereignty and our free will.
Mary freely said Yes....I agree.
But was she not chosen by God?
If she was chosen by God,,,how could her Yes be of her own free will?

Notice what Gabriel says to her in
Luke 1:31
And behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus"

Does this sound like a request or like a command?
Gabriel is telling her what is going to happen...
BUT, right after that, she gives her free will YES to him.

This happens to be one of the most difficult things to understand about God's will always being done...and our free will to choose.

All the people of God at different levels are co-redeemers, mediators, and advocates, by witnessing, correcting, praying or offering our sufferings in union with Christ for those who are in need of grace. When we suffer, witness, pray or live for Christ we co-redeem, mediate and advocate (co=with Christ redeem).

The above really shows a misunderstanding of the work of the Savior which God had planned from before the beginning of time..knowing that man would fail and need salvation.

Offering our sufferings is fine....
But we are NOT all co-redeemers,,,,however you want to understand that word...CO as being equal or CO as being a helper.
Jesus does not need a helper!

As to grace and Mary dispensing with grace....this is a teaching of the church...but not dogma....what I would ask is: How was grace given before Mary?

God chose Mary to touch all humanity thru her mediation between God and man, thereby co-redeeming in union with Christ. Our co-redeeming touches maybe one or two or even thousands, depending on the person and the grace God gives to our co-redeeming acts. If we do nothing, with our gift, we may lose our own soul as the man who didn’t even get interest on the talent given him by the Lord, Mt 25:24-30. This does not take away from Christ the one redeemer, mediator and advocate. Christ shares his mediatorship and all he has and is with his people. He shares his priesthood, kingship and being prophet with all his people. Christ makes us a royal priesthood, kings and prophets sending us to be witnesses thereby co=with Christ, redeemers.

We ARE a Royal priesthood.
What does this mean?
It actually means that we don't need priests anymore.
YIKES!
I guess you know by now that I'm not in favor of Mary being called a co-redemptrix. I don't believe Francis is either --- but who's listening to him these days?

[Col1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:] k

Just as Paul we too uniting with Christ our sufferings, joys, prayers and works become co-redeemers with Christ. Christ's afflictions lack nothing, but he wants us to share in his work, which is our priestly duty. Why waste a suffering offer it up to God for the salvation of souls.

[Rm15:16 for my being a servant of Jesus Christ to the nations, acting as priest in the good news of God, that the offering up of the nations may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.] YLT Biblegateway,

[1Cor3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building,] k

[3Jn1:8 We therefore ought to receive such, that we might be fellowhelpers to the truth.] k

[Jms5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.] k

[Jude1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.] k

[1Tm4:15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.] k

Paul did not believe Christ needed any help,,,,all of the above are good verses but they don't state what you're saying.

Mary is unique as the OT ark

of the covenant was unique and honored because of the special presents of God. Mary alone among all the billions of human beings was chosen by God to conceive in her womb God made flesh. Mother of God, is only one of the great things God has done to her and the reason All generations will call her blessed.

Agreed
A beautiful analogy.

[Lk1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.] k

Catholic’s and Orthodox thru all generations have called Mary blessed because of the great things, plural, God has done to Mary.
KJV Biblegateway

Agreed.

Just some food for thought.

 

[JLHargus]

CharismaticLady: If Mary is the "queen of heaven" who is the king of heaven?

JL: Sorry about the long post but I thought it would give you a better understanding. The short answer the Son of Mary, Son of David and Son of God is king of the regenerated Davidic kingdom. In the Davidic kingdom from his son king Solomon on the queen was the mother of the king.

[Is9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.] k

[Lk1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.] k

[1Kgs1:32 And king David said, Call me Zadok the priest, and Nathan the prophet, and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada. And they came before the king. 33 The king also said unto them, Take with you the servants of your lord, and cause Solomon my son to ride upon mine own mule, and bring him down to Gihon: 34 And let Zadok the priest and Nathan the prophet anoint him there king over Israel: and blow ye with the trumpet, and say, God save king Solomon. 35 Then ye shall come up after him, that he may come and sit upon my throne; for he shall be king in my stead: and I have appointed him to be ruler over Israel and over Judah.] k Zech9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold ,thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.] k

[Mt21:6 And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them, 7 And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon. 8 And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way. 9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.] k

[1Chron29:23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him. 24 And all the princes, and the mighty men, and all the sons likewise of king David, submitted themselves unto Solomon the king.] k

[1Kgs2:19 Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right hand.] k

Soloman the son of David set a throne for his mother as did all those following kings, sons of David, who were of David's dynastic line. Christ son of David is king in David's line and Mary is queen mother.

[Jer52:1 Zedekiah was one and twenty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Hamutal the daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah.] k

[2Kgs21:1 Manasseh was twelve years old when he began to reign, and reigned fifty and five years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Hephzibah.] k

[2Kgs8:26 Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother’s name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel.] k

[Jer13:18 Say unto the king and to the queen, Humble yourselves, sit down: for your principalities shall come down, even the crown of your glory. 19 The cities of the south shall be shut up, and none shall open them: Judah shall be carried away captive all of it, it shall be wholly carried away captive.] k

Despite the wickedness of some of the kings and queens. Jeremiah calls both the king and queen mother’s crowns glorious. No prophet ever spoke against the office of Queen Mother.

[Mk10:40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.] k

[1Kgs8:20 And the Lord hath performed his word that he spake, and I am risen up in the room of David my father, and sit on the throne of Israel, as the Lord promised, and have built an house for the name of the Lord God of Israel. 21 And I have set there a place for the ark, wherein is the covenant of the LORD, which he made with our fathers, when he brought them out of the land of Egypt.] k

Christ the king and Son of David sets a place for the Ark, Mary. His mother, queen mother, in the new regenerated spiritual kingdom of David, spiritual Israel.

[Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. Rv12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child, cried travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.] The woman is a person=Mary, symbolic of the Church, Old and New Covenant people of God. Twelve stars, universal queen, queen of heaven and earth. k

[Rv12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.] The red dragon is a person and symbolic of governments and orgainizations that persecute the Church throughout the ages. k

[Rv12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.] To rule all nations, universal king, the child is a person=Christ. [Symbolic of all persons. JPII The Gospel of Life. Chapter 104.] k

David didn’t elevate his mother, who was dead, to a throne. It was the son of David, King Solomon who did so. Solomon, the Son of David, instituted the office of queen mother. Solomon, the Son of David, who would build a house for the Lord (Temple). As God's anointed king Soloman had complete authority to institute any office he saw fit for the kingdom. Christ, the Son of David, is now king who is building a habitation for God (Temple of living stones) and of His kingdom there will be no end.

If Mary's son is the Son of David and King in David's line. Then Mary is Gebirah=Hebrew=Queen Mother in the regenerated spiritual Kingdom of David, spiritual Israel.

Mary's intercession at the wedding of Cana, foreshadows her advocacy as Queen Mother, after Christ's hour had come, and Mary entered the throne room of Jesus her divine Son, the Son of God and Son of David, King of the regenerated Davidic Kingdom of Israel.

[Lk1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the son of the highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne, of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.] k

[1Kgs8:18 And the LORD said unto David my father, Whereas it was in thine heart to build an house unto my name, thou didst well that it was in thine heart. 19 Nevertheless thou shalt not build the house, but thy son that shall come forth out of thy loins, he shall build the house unto my name.] k

[2Sam7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.] k

Christ the Son of David is building an everlasting universal spiritual kingdom. Christ builds with living stones. Regenerating the old earthly Davidic kingdom of God into the new spiritual Israel.

[Mt19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.] k

[Lk22:28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. 29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 And the Lord said, Simon,Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.] k

The kingdom on earth in seed from is the Church, where we eat and drink at the Lord’s table at Mass. The Lord’s table=altar=sacrifice=Mass.

[Malachi1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.] k

That pure offering=sacrifice, this is my body, this is my blood, our Thank Offering, Eucharist in Latin. Animal sacrifices had to be clean. But Christ our sacrifice is that pure offering from the rising to the setting of the sun in every place. Mass is said by all priests every day around the world from rising to setting of the sun.]

Peter is First Minister as he is given the keys to that kingdom. Peter, who’s faith Christ prayed would not fail is to strengthen his brethren and all the sheep and lambs, Jn21:15-17. That would be all the brethren including the other apostles. Peter is universal pastor and his faith is guaranteed by Christ. Christ the king, holds the keys by right and delegates his authority, with those keys, to his First Minister, [Isa 22:19-22 & Mt 16:13-19]. That Kingdom is for all people in all places and all times. Christ is universal, catholic, King and his mother is universal catholic, Gebirah=Queen Mother in the regenerated spiritual, universal Davidic Kingdom.

[1Kgs2:19 Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right hand.] k

Soloman, the son of David set a throne for his mother, as did all kings who were of the Davidic dynasty.

Peter is universal pastor and his faith is guaranteed by Christ. Christ the king, holds the keys by right, and delegates his authority, with those keys, to his First Minister, [Isa 22:19-22 & Mt 16:13-19]. That Kingdom is for all people in all places and all times. Christ is universal, catholic, King and his mother is universal catholic, Gebirah=Queen Mother in the regenerated spiritual, universal=catholic, Davidic Kingdom.

 

[JLHargus]

GodsGrace101: What you say can be true. It can also be true that Jesus wanted Mary to be taken care of and entrusted her to John. I just doubt that John needed a spiritual mother. He did not live with her indefinitely...he preached the gospel just like the other Apostles did.

JL: I agree Jesus wanted Mary to be taken care of as she had no children to care for her. Mary is also called by the fathers the new Eve who is mother of all the living.

GodsGrace101: I used to teach catechism and I used to speak about the great YES of Mary and how WE also are to follow her lead and say yes to God. However, we here are adults, so let's look at this in a more mature way.

Mary could have said no..... And here we come face to face with God's sovereignty and our free will. Mary freely said Yes....I agree. But was she not chosen by God? If she was chosen by God ,,, how could her Yes be of her own free will?

JL: If she couldn’t say no, then she had no free will and we are all robots. God is sovereign=supreme power but he is not a tyrant. A tyrant would force people as they have no concern but for themselves. God, who could force, is love and wants our free will love offering. He doesn’t want robots but love from his creatures. A free will act to God is an expression of faith and love.

GodsGrace101: Notice what Gabriel says to her in Luke 1:31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus"

Does this sound like a request or like a command? Gabriel is telling her what is going to happen... BUT, right after that, she gives her free will YES to him. This happens to be one of the most difficult things to understand about God's will always being done...and our free will to choose.

JL: It sounds like an all knowing God knows, the answer will be a free will yes. He knew Mary’s answer when he told Satan in Gn3:15.

[Gn3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.]k

If human beings have no free will would it be just to create billions of people, to be lost, who are forced by God’s sovereignty to sin and never able to repent? How can a sinner be held responsible for his sins if he has no free will?

I can’t quite understand where certain Protestants come up with sovereignty means can’t be resisted. God wills all men to be saved, yet all men will not be saved. Does that mean God is not sovereign? No, it simply means he gives us free will choices.

[1Tm2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.]k

Why pray for others, if there is no free will, what’s the point? Why not eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die, having no free will to choose life or death.

Duet30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:[/QUOTE]

 

[bbbbbbb]

GodsGrace101: What you say can be true. It can also be true that Jesus wanted Mary to be taken care of and entrusted her to John. I just doubt that John needed a spiritual mother. He did not live with her indefinitely...he preached the gospel just like the other Apostles did.

JL: I agree Jesus wanted Mary to be taken care of as she had no children to care for her. Mary is also called by the fathers the new Eve who is mother of all the living.

GodsGrace101: I used to teach catechism and I used to speak about the great YES of Mary and how WE also are to follow her lead and say yes to God. However, we here are adults, so let's look at this in a more mature way.

Mary could have said no..... And here we come face to face with God's sovereignty and our free will. Mary freely said Yes....I agree. But was she not chosen by God? If she was chosen by God ,,, how could her Yes be of her own free will?

JL: If she couldn’t say no, then she had no free will and we are all robots. God is sovereign=supreme power but he is not a tyrant. A tyrant would force people as they have no concern but for themselves. God, who could force, is love and wants our free will love offering. He doesn’t want robots but love from his creatures. A free will act to God is an expression of faith and love.

GodsGrace101: Notice what Gabriel says to her in Luke 1:31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus"

Does this sound like a request or like a command? Gabriel is telling her what is going to happen... BUT, right after that, she gives her free will YES to him. This happens to be one of the most difficult things to understand about God's will always being done...and our free will to choose.

JL: It sounds like an all knowing God knows, the answer will be a free will yes. He knew Mary’s answer when he told Satan in Gn3:15.

[Gn3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.]k

If human beings have no free will would it be just to create billions of people, to be lost, who are forced by God’s sovereignty to sin and never able to repent? How can a sinner be held responsible for his sins if he has no free will?

I can’t quite understand where certain Protestants come up with sovereignty means can’t be resisted. God wills all men to be saved, yet all men will not be saved. Does that mean God is not sovereign? No, it simply means he gives us free will choices.

[1Tm2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.]k

Why pray for others, if there is no free will, what’s the point? Why not eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die, having no free will to choose life or death.

Duet30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

[/QUOTE]

Hear what Peter, your (alleged) first Pope wrote:

I Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Peter must have been the same sort of "Protestant" that Saint Augustine was - a complete monergist.