Is this is a legitimate way to understand the title "Co-Redemptrix"?

[tz620q]

It is NOT possible to be a human being and not be a sinner. Jesus was not only a man, He was God in the flesh and as such HE DID NOT HAVE A SIN NATURE.

Two questions for you then.
First question, if all human beings are sinners, then was Adam and Eve human beings? And if the answer is yes, were they created sinners?

Second question, if Christ is eternal and the Word through which creation becomes, then did He not create Adam and Eve? Did he not create Mary, his own human mother?

 

[Major1]

Two questions for you then.
First question, if all human beings are sinners, then was Adam and Eve human beings? And if the answer is yes, were they created sinners?

Second question, if Christ is eternal and the Word through which creation becomes, then did He not create Adam and Eve? Did he not create Mary, his own human mother?

Surely you can not be serious my dear friend.

They were created HUMAN BEINGS with the freedom of choice.

The Bible tells us that Adam was sinless, but as is obvious from the fact that he did sin, God created Adam with the potential to sin. Being sinless and being unable to sin are two very different things. Although God created Adam in His image, this does not mean Adam was perfect or holy or had all of the attributes of God. It means that Adam, unlike the animals, was rational. Unlike what so many theologians assert without biblical support, God did not create Adam with an innate sense of morality.

So, until God gave him the command to not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Adam had no sense of right and wrong. It was in this way that he was sinless. Without a command, how could he sin? After the command—Don’t eat from that tree!—Adam knew one thing that was wrong. It was wrong to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So, with a little leading to his wife from the serpent and a nudge from her, what did he do? He ate from it. When they are under law, all human beings have a tendency to sin—even Adam.

I recommend that you do a study on Federal Headship.

Colossians 1:16 answers your 2nd question...…….

Rom. 5:18............…
“As one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men”.

So, Adam’s sin brought condemnation on the human race; Christ’s sacrifice brought salvation for the whole race. The idea of federal headship involves the teaching that Adam was the first representative of the human race and Christ was the second representative.

2nd question is answered in Colossians 1:16...………….
"For by him (Christ) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him".

Mary was a product of her mother and father through their generations. Christ did not create her my friend.

The only 2 humans "Created" were Adam and Eve and the rest of us have come through childbirth.

 

[JLHargus]

If I were you, I would spend more time reading the Bible instead of Dante's productions.

IF you do that you will se that there is NO mention, NO suggestion and NO teaching on the Catholic only doctrine of Purgatory.

IN fact there is NO mention, and NO thought and NO teaching in the Bible that Mary is a co-redemptrix.

That is solely a Catholic traditional teachings and has NO basis in the Word of God.

If I were you, I'd spend some time looking at Orthodox Mariology. They don't teach the existence of Purgatory,

All the Church has defined about purgatory is, 1. There is an intermediate state after death which is not heaven or hell. 2. A state of further purification of souls in the hereafter. 3. Prayers, sufferings offered up for them and offering mass for them can aid them.

According to an Orthodox person I talked with on line some years ago. In Orthodoxy there is a concept known as Toll houses where the conscience of souls are tortured and tested in the process of Theosis. Theosis as I understand from him is a soul moving toward God being detained on the way at toll houses.
They pray for there dead so call it what you will its the same thing.

nor do they see Mary as a "co-" anything. It's a much cleaner Mariology than the Roman church has, being free of the various Mary-related innovations that they added after going into schism in 1054.

They haven't defined anything since the split.

The Difference Between the Catholic & Orthodox Veneration of Mary | Synonym[/QUOTE]

 

[Major1]

All the Church has defined about purgatory is, 1. There is an intermediate state after death which is not heaven or hell. 2. A state of further purification of souls in the hereafter. 3. Prayers, sufferings offered up for them and offering mass for them can aid them.

According to an Orthodox person I talked with on line some years ago. In Orthodoxy there is a concept known as Toll houses where the conscience of souls are tortured and tested in the process of Theosis. Theosis as I understand from him is a soul moving toward God being detained on the way at toll houses.
They pray for there dead so call it what you will its the same thing.



They haven't defined anything since the split.

The Difference Between the Catholic & Orthodox Veneration of Mary | Synonym

[/QUOTE]

ALL that I have asked of any person is to simply post the Scriptures from the KJV Bible the word "PURGATORY" and or its definition or explanation from the Scriptures.

When that is done, then the conversations will end.

 

[JLHargus]

[QUOTE="Major1, post: 73271639, member: 391026"] If I were you, I would spend more time reading the Bible instead of Dante's productions. IF you do that you will see that there is NO mention, NO suggestion and NO teaching on the Catholic only doctrine of Purgatory.[/quote]

Purgatory is not a means of salvation or a second chance, but the fruit of Christ’s once for all sacrifice and mercy. Those in purgatory have died in a state of grace. Saved by the blood of Christ and written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Otherwise they would be in hell. Those in purgatory need to be purged of imperfection such as not forgiving from the heart.

[Hb12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24-28 …. 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.] Most Christians although saints=holy do not die in a state of perfection.

[1Pt 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God and if it begins with us what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous man is scarcely saved where will the impious and sinner appear?]

[Mt12:36 I tell you on the day of judgment men will render account for every carless word they utter]

[1Cor3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.]

Gold is not discarded because it has impurities. It simply needs to be purified by fire to remove the imperfection rendering in pure.

 

[JLHargus]

ALL that I have asked of any person is to simply post the Scriptures from the KJV Bible the word "PURGATORY" and or its definition or explanation from the Scriptures. When that is done, then the conversations will end.

JL: The word purgatory isn’t found in scripture nor is the word trinity yet they are implied. Christ does refer to a place he calls prison in Lk12:58, Mt:5:25.

[Mt5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.]

Mt5:23-26, Lk12:58-59 and 1Cor3:11-15, all speak of judgment and a temporary punishment from which one will come out. It can’t be heaven or hell both are eternal. No one wants out of heaven and no one can get out of hell. Purgatory is temporary for those who need some purification before entering heaven.

[2Tm2:20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble. 21 If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the master and prepared to do any good work.]

[2Cor7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.] With grace we can cleanse ourselves of impurities and perfect holiness while on earth. Offering our trails, sufferings, doing penance. If not then we will be purified by God’s great mercy in purgatory.

[1Cor9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.]

Paul strived for mastery of his imperfections being temperate in all things buffeting his body, doing penance, to keep it under control. Most of us are not that diligent we sometimes act as one beating the air.

 

[JLHargus]

You stated correctly that.....…….. "This is not explicitly explained in the Bible, true, (and as Catholics, we are not bound to Scripture alone, but that's another topic for another day)"

AND right there my dear friend is the rub that separates the Protestant faith from the Catholic. The Bible says in Mark 7:8...…. "Having neglected the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."

As a protestant believer I accept the Word of God as the Bible and you are bound by the traditions of men.

JL: CCC120 It was by the apostolic Tradition that the Church discerned which writings are to be included in the list of the sacred books. This complete list is called the canon of Scripture. It includes 46 books for the Old Testament (45 if we count Jeremiah and Lamentations as one) and 27 for the New. Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 2 ARTICLE 3

CCC86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."

The Church also accepts the Bible as the Word of God along with Apostolic Tradition. The Word of God whether by word or epistle, as the Bible explicitly teaches.

[2Thes2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.]

Unless one can find scripture telling us all oral Apostolic Tradition is now found in Scripture they are not following the Bible but a tradition of men nullifying the Word of God, which as you rightly point out Christ condemned.

[1Thes2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.]

There are three authorities neither stands alone. One, the Scriptures interpreted in light of two the Apostolic Tradition as received and lived out in the one visible Apostolic Catholic Church of God, the pillar and ground of truth, 1Tm3:15. Three, the Apostolic College of bishops and their sent successors appointed by laying on of hands from the apostles to bishops to bishops till the end. The teaching authority Christ sent to teach all nations promising He would be with that teaching authority unto the end of the world, Mt28:16-20. Also promising to send the Holy Spirit to lead them into all truth, Jn16:13.] Scripture and Apostolic Tradition can never contradict.

[2Tm2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.]

[2 Tm1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.]

The Church was up and running, converting, preaching, baptizing, correcting, teaching the manifold wisdom of the gospel, fifteen to twenty years or so before the first word of the NT was even penned and almost four hundred years before the canon was officially listed. By what authority then was the gospel taught? What authority decided which books were inspired and which were not inspired?

[Mt18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.]

All scripture KJV public domain Biblegateway

 

[JLHargus]

The scriptures hold warnings against any traditions, customs, precepts, or laws that are in opposition to, contradictory to, that nullify (or do away with) God's commands as written in the scriptural record. These customs, rituals, practices are inventions and traditions of men -- alone, apart from God. We must be cautious of the emptiness of the traditions of men passed down through time ... even those from our own forefathers or elders.

1 Peter 1:18-19...…. "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:"

Colossians 2:8 ...…. "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Amen. Unless scripture can be found telling us all oral Tradition is now found in scripture, they are not following the Bible but a tradition of men. Apostolic or Divine Tradition and Scripture are the Word of God the one revelation given to the apostles.

[1Thes2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.]

[2Tm2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.]

[2 Tm1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.]

[Acts 14:23 when they had ordained elders in every church and prayed with fasting they commended them to the Lord on whom they believed.]

[Acts 20:28 Take heed of yourself, and the flock over which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers to feed the church of God purchased with his own blood,]

[1Tm5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.]

The Church was up and running, preaching, baptizing, correcting, teaching the manifold wisdom of the gospel, fifteen to twenty years or so before the first word of the NT was even penned and almost four hundred years before the canon was officially listed. By what authority then was the gospel taught? What authority decided which books were inspired and which were not inspired?

[Mt18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.]

Those who hold the Jewish canon of the OT hold a tradition of men decided by Pharisees after they were cut off from the root and after Christ ascended. Authority had already passed to the Church before the Pharisees decided a canon.

In addition most hold Catholic Apostolic Tradition of the Trinity, two natures of Christ. Some also hold traditions of men such as faith alone, scripture alone, OSAS, baptism symbol only, all Apostolic Tradition in scripture. None of those traditions of men are in scripture the actually contradict scripture.

All scripture KJV public domain Biblegateway

 

[Major1]

Amen. Unless scripture can be found telling us all oral Tradition is now found in scripture, they are not following the Bible but a tradition of men. Apostolic or Divine Tradition and Scripture are the Word of God the one revelation given to the apostles.

[1Thes2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.]

[2Tm2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.]

[2 Tm1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.]

[Acts 14:23 when they had ordained elders in every church and prayed with fasting they commended them to the Lord on whom they believed.]

[Acts 20:28 Take heed of yourself, and the flock over which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers to feed the church of God purchased with his own blood,]

[1Tm5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.]

The Church was up and running, preaching, baptizing, correcting, teaching the manifold wisdom of the gospel, fifteen to twenty years or so before the first word of the NT was even penned and almost four hundred years before the canon was officially listed. By what authority then was the gospel taught? What authority decided which books were inspired and which were not inspired?

[Mt18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.]

Those who hold the Jewish canon of the OT hold a tradition of men decided by Pharisees after they were cut off from the root and after Christ ascended. Authority had already passed to the Church before the Pharisees decided a canon.

In addition most hold Catholic Apostolic Tradition of the Trinity, two natures of Christ. Some also hold traditions of men such as faith alone, scripture alone, OSAS, baptism symbol only, all Apostolic Tradition in scripture. None of those traditions of men are in scripture the actually contradict scripture.

All scripture KJV public domain Biblegateway

Good stuff...…..I agree completely. And Thanks!

 

[JLHargus]

Good stuff...…..I agree completely. And Thanks!

You’re welcome, I appreciate your kindness.

 

[Major1]

You’re welcome, I appreciate your kindness.

Ephesians 4:32...……
'And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.'

 

[Dan Perez]

You are almost right.

The co-remptrix should be abandoned but the Bible truth is that there is NO purgatory at all.

There is not one single Bible verse that suggests such a place or such a process.

Hi ans what is interesting , the bible in the Greek has no word as PURGATORY !!

dan p

 

[bbbbbbb]

Hi ans what is interesting , the bible in the Greek has no word as PURGATORY !!

dan p

The really curious thing to me is that the Catholic Church (which is the sole Christian denomination proclaiming a belief in Purgatory) self-developed its belief during the late Middle Ages. Today there is no clear consensus within the Catholic Church concerning exactly what Purgatory is and what it is not.

 

[Basil the Great]

I read somewhere years ago that John Paul the Great wanted to decree that Mary is Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix of All Graces, but held off for fear of harming relations with the Orthodox.

 

[Major1]

I read somewhere years ago that John Paul the Great wanted to decree that Mary is Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix of All Graces, but held off for fear of harming relations with the Orthodox.

An international Marian organization, along with more than 100 bishops, priests, religious and theologians from over 20 countries, are asking Pope Francis to publicly acknowledge Mary as co-redemptrix with Our Lord.

Int'l Marian Commission to Pope: Please Declare Mary Co-Redemptrix

 

[Basil the Great]

Wow.... if Pope Francis were to do so, then he might win favor with some of the Catholic Traditionalists that have been critical of him?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Wow.... if Pope Francis were to do so, then he might win favor with some of the Catholic Traditionalists that have been critical of him?

I think it might become a case of pleasing some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time and ultimately nobody at any time.

 

[concretecamper]

The really curious thing to me is that the Catholic Church (which is the sole Christian denomination proclaiming a belief in Purgatory)

Wrong. Some Orthodox and some protestants believe in purging after death.

self-developed its belief during the late Middle

silly fabricated statement since some Orthodox also beleive in purging after death.

Today there is no clear consensus within the Catholic Church concerning exactly what Purgatory is and what it is not.

if you can find any divine revelation that tells us exactly what is is and is not, please post it.

Scripture is clear, there is purging of the soul after death. I'll stick with God's Revelation and not man's silly innovations.

 

[concretecamper]

Amen. Unless scripture can be found telling us all oral Tradition is now found in scripture, they are not following the Bible but a tradition of men.

That's becasue you have it backwards. Scripture is found in Oral Tradition, not the other way around.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Wrong. Some Orthodox and some protestants believe in purging after death.
silly fabricated statement since some Orthodox also beleive in purging after death.
if you can find any divine revelation that tells us exactly what is is and is not, please post it.

Scripture is clear, there is purging of the soul after death. I'll stick with God's Revelation and not man's silly innovations.

It is disingenuous to assert that the Orthodox belief in purging after death is synonymous with the Catholic dogma of Purgarptory. The Orthodox belief is much less clearly articulated and is not a dogma requisite for all members of the Orthodox Church.

You have no divine revelation telling you exactly the terms of a place known as Purgatory which is dogmatised in your religion.