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Is this is a legitimate way to understand the title "Co-Redemptrix"?

Discussion in 'Mariology & Hagiography' started by Ripheus27, Oct 2, 2018.

  1. Ripheus27

    Ripheus27 Holeless fox

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    So, the Catholic afterlife has an extra dimension compared to Protestant/similar denominations, namely Purgatory. Based on my reading of Dante's Purgatorio, I came up with an idea for how Mary might be described as a "Co-Redemptrix" in such a way as does not imply equality with Christ or even a role in Christ's direct work of redemption as such. Basically, my idea is that there is an analogy between being saved from Hell, and being liberated from Purgatory, such that Mary plays a special role in accelerating the purification of souls in Purgatory, wherefore she is a "Co-Redemptrix." Christ is the only one Who saves souls from the fire of Hell, and He also is the only one Who makes it possible for souls to enter into Purgatory in the first place, but once souls are there, Mary is able to do something personal in herself, that "redeems" those souls from the lesser fire in question.

    I realize the title in question is not dogmatic for the RCC so it might be something of a moot point or whatever, but I have a very high Mariology so I am interested in "promoting the cause," so to speak.
     
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  2. Newtheran

    Newtheran Well-Known Member

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    If I were you, I'd spend some time looking at Orthodox Mariology. They don't teach the existence of Purgatory, nor do they see Mary as a "co-" anything. It's a much cleaner Mariology than the Roman church has, being free of the various Mary-related innovations that they added after going into schism in 1054.

    The Difference Between the Catholic & Orthodox Veneration of Mary | Synonym
     
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  3. Mark_Sam

    Mark_Sam Newbie

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    That's an interesting idea, and from a Catholic perspective it is certainly true that Mary prays for the souls in Purgatory. However, that is not what is traditionally understood or meant by the title Co-Redemptrix. The title usually refers to her role in salvation - bringing Christ into the world - and to her close and intimate union with the heart of Christ in his life and suffering. She was herself saved by Christ, but she had a key role, albeit a minor role, in bringing salvation to the world.

    My impression is that the Co-Redemptrix movement has lost its stream. Many people thought that St. John Paul II ("the most Marian pope") would declare this as dogma, but he didn't. Elsewhere, I have argued that the title of Co-Redemptrix may be understood as functionally equivalent to the title "Mother of the Church", a title the Church very much embraces. Here's why.

    In the last century or so there developed two schools of Mariology: Christotypical Mariology (also called maximalism) and Ecclesiotypical Mariology (also called minimalism). Christotypical Mariology uses Christ as a model to understand Mary, her role and all the graces she received from Christ, and places Mary between Christ and the Church, as the "neck" between the Head and the Body. Ecclesiotypical Mariology uses the Church as a model to understand Mary, and treats Mary as the foremost member of the Church. This is a very simplified version of the debate. The title "mother of the Church" gives Mary as exalted position in the Church, and places her both within and above the Church at the same time - much like the title of Co-Redemptrix.

    During the Vatican II Council this debate was all the rage. The Council did not formally endorse a school of thought, but chapter 8 of Lumen Gentium (and the very fact that Mary was treated not in a separate document, but the document on the Church) leans heavily towards Ecclesiotypical Mariology, even though it also uses very maximalist language at times.

    Even though I think that the doctrine of Co-Redemptrix (or Marian Coredemption) is technically true, I think it would cause more confusion than clarity, and is more easily misunderstood than correctly understood. And at this time, I don't think a dogmatization of this is necessary, given all of Mary's other officially approved titles which more or less communicate the contents of this doctrine (Mother of God, Mother of the Church, Untier of knots, Spouse of the Holy Spirit etc.)
     
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  4. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This won't work.
    People that are in purgatory are already redeemed.
    They don't need to be redeemed again.

    Any idea that Mary is a co-redemptrix should be abolished by the Catholic church since it totally takes away Jesus' role in salvation.
     
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  5. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    If I were you, I would spend more time reading the Bible instead of Dante's productions.

    IF you do that you will se that there is NO mention, NO suggestion and NO teaching on the Catholic only doctrine of Purgatory.

    IN fact there is NO mention, and NO thought and NO teaching in the Bible that Mary is a co-redemptrix.

    That is solely a Catholic traditional teachings and has NO basis in the Word of God.
     
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  6. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    You are almost right.

    The co-remptrix should be abandoned but the Bible truth is that there is NO purgatory at all.

    There is not one single Bible verse that suggests such a place or such a process.
     
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  7. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why do you think the title of co-redemptrix is technically true?

    Interesting about Mary being included in Lumen Gentium instead of a separate doc. Never thought of this. I never thought it was particularly important, but maybe it is.
     
  8. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I was replying to @Ripheus27 to tell him that his idea would not work...not to agree with purgatory.

    I understand the scriptures catholics use to prove purgatory but I don't read them that way - if there's a purgatory it would mean Jesus sacrifice was not sufficient. Of course, this would lead to a discussion on which atonement version they believe...
     
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  9. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Glad to here that.

    Agreed!
     
  10. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Except for the part about it being a "minor role" (the term co-redemptrix and the way supporters of this POV speak of Mary suggests much more), the above is the way I understand the issue.
     
  11. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    And that it how I understand the issue as well.
     
  12. Mark_Sam

    Mark_Sam Newbie

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    To shed further light on the topic, I would like to reproduce the entry on "Co-Redemptrix" in the book Dictionary of Mary:

    Ok, there's a lot to unpack here. This book was written in the 1980's, during the reign of St. John Paul II, "the most Marian pope", and the Co-Redemptrix movement had gained some momentum. And until the Holy See makes any official pronouncements (if ever at all), this remains speculative theology, and no one is bound to believe this. My impression is that today, the Co-Redemptrix movement is mostly reduced to Mark Miravalle and his supporters.

    This entry gives us three ways to understand this title:
    1. Mary's consent at the Annunciation.
    2. Mary's role in distributing grace (subjective Redemption, i.e. the distribution of saving graces to us).
    3. Mary's role in objective Redemption (i.e. Christ joined Mary's sufferings to His on the Cross, so that she contributed to Redemption).

    This last one is the controversial one. Did Mary feel as if she made a huge sacrifice by beholding her only Son on the Cross? Sure. And in a sense, she did "sacrifice" Him by allowing Him to be crucified. But I'm not so sure this actually contributed to objective Redemption (i.e. appeasing the wrath of the Father). If this entry is the definition of Co-Redemptrix, then I will kindly disagree with it, at least for now. I could maybe accept a softer definition. I understand where this is coming from, but I feel it goes a tad too far, and also that "Mother of the Church" and "the new Eve" explain many of these concepts in a more orthodox manner with more orthodox language, especially in the Mariological framework laid by Vatican II.
     
  13. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    On the contrary, it is the second one and the third one together that seem to have become the belief for most people, either on the pro or the con side of the debate. And it doesn't matter particularly that the church has yet to take an official position; it is rather that millions of Catholics believe it--with at least the tacit approval of the church.
     
  14. Mark_Sam

    Mark_Sam Newbie

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    Yes, that's why I think the Co-Redemptrix is in such a doctrinally awkward place. Since the Vatican is well aware of this teaching, and hasn't condemned it, and has even encouraged it at some points, Catholics are allowed to teach, preach and believe Co-Redemptrix (or Marian coredemption) as Catholic teaching - just not as dogma. And since it's not dogma, Catholics are allowed to challenge it - but not to declare it as heresy.
     
  15. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    "Bible" isn't in the Bible.

    As Mark_Sam says, the co-Redemptrix doctrine is technically true but as doctrines go it's a lot easier to misunderstand than it is to understand... as is evidenced by the nay-saying posts in this thread written by people who manifestly do not understand the doctrine.
     
  16. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Correct. The Bible is the WORD of God.

    2nd.....there is ZERO teachings found in the Word of God that supports the co-Redemptrix theory......NONE!

    If you choose to believe such a teaching, then you of course are free to do so but it can not be accepted based on anything found in the Word of God.
     
  17. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    Um, Sacred Scripture is the word of God. "Bible" is what we call the compilation which collects all (or, in the case of Protestants, most) of Sacred Scripture into a single volume.

    You're entitled to believe whatever you like.

    Sure it can.
     
  18. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Yes it is.

    Yes I am.

    NO it can not be found. If it was you would already have quoted it.

    Allow me to post the Word of God on this subject in Romans 3:23...….
    "ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".

    God proclaimed in Isaiah 49:26...…….
    "I, the Lord, am your Savior, and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob".

    There is no biblical support for the Roman Catholic claim that Mary "with Christ redeemed mankind" as stated by Pope Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia.

    ALL includes every single human being.
     
  19. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Salvifici Doloris……….
    "it was on Calvary that Mary's suffering, beside the suffering of Jesus, reached an intensity which can hardly be imagined from a human point of view but which was mysteriously and supernaturally fruitful for the Redemption of the world."

    Here the Church, rather than picturing Mary as a grateful redeemed sinner at the feet of her Savior, portrays her as making "a contribution to the Redemption of all" through her own sufferings. In the words of the Second Vatican Council [968]:

    "She conceived, brought forth, and nourished Christ, she presented him to the Father in the temple, shared her Son's sufferings as he died on the cross. Thus, in a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Savior in restoring supernatural life to souls. - - Second Vatican Council."


    There is NO Biblical support whatsoever for this RCC doctrine.

    Please understand that even if Mary had died on Calvary, her death would not have redeemed anyone. Mary was NOT a perfect God in the flesh as was Jesus. Mary herself was a sinner just as we are. As such, she was guilty before God and unfit to redeem anyone. God the Father demanded a PERFECT Sacrifice for the redemption of humanity and Jesus was the ONLY GOD-MAN. The same is true of every other man or woman.

    Psalms 49:7-8 makes this perfectly clear...…….
    No man can by any means redeem his brother,
    Or give to God a ransom for him
    For the redemption of his soul is costly,
    And he should cease trying forever

     
  20. Mark_Sam

    Mark_Sam Newbie

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    The Co-Redemptrix teaching makes it clear that:
    1. Mary was herself redeemed by Christ, in her Immaculate Conception,
    2. Christ is the sole Redeemer of the whole world, and
    3. Mary's contribution in the mystery of Redemption was entirely by the power of Christ, and then subordinate and finite compared to Christ, and lastly
    4. Mary's contribution to Redemption was not because of some divine obligation, but entirely because God willed it. Christ alone was enough to save mankind, but God still wanted to include Mary's sorrow in this work of Redemption.

    This is not explicitly explained in the Bible, true, (and as Catholics, we are not bound to Scripture alone, but that's another topic for another day). It is based on understanding Christ and Mary as the "new Adam and Eve", undoing the mistakes of the first Adam and Eve, in the divine drama, an idea with Biblical roots, cf. Romans 5:17-21, compared to Irenaeus, Against Heresies, III, 22.
     
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