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Is there salvation without Mary?

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by b4jesustoday, Aug 20, 2020.

  1. robycop3

    robycop3 Newbie

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    The disciple beloved by Jesus was John. The passages apply to His time on earth.

    If God hadn't chosen Mary as the woman to have given birth to Him as a human, He woulda chosen someone else. No, Mary is NOT essential for our salvation. Only JESUS is.
     
  2. Lukaris

    Lukaris Orthodox Christian Supporter

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    The Lord permitted St. John the Baptist ( I know you do not mean him here) to be beheaded for His purpose and loved John the Baptist. At the wedding of Cana, it is understood by many that the Lord addressed Mary as “mother”. The Lord is God and gave the commandments to Moses to honor our parents & the Lord honors His mother in His human nature. Many people, myself included, believe the woman in Revelation 12 is the Theotokos as well as the church.
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    There is Christ Himself stating "on the contrary" when this comes up...

    Luke 11:
    27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” 28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” NASB

    Rom 13:11 Besides this you know what hour it is, how it is full time now for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed;

    Does not say "now is Mary nearer than when we first believed" - rather it talks about the 2nd coming.

    John 19:26 When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!"
    John 19:27 Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

    Jesus does not say to John "behold your salvation" in reference to Mary.

    The question then is - how often do those who venerate Mary respond "blessed be" statements of the Luke 11:27 form with "on the contrary" ? When someone begins with the "blessed is" statement of Luke 11:27? Would Christ's "on the contrary" in Luke 11:28 even be "allowed" -- within some groups?
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2021
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    really?

    John 2:
    3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus *said to Him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus *said to her, “Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come.” NASB 1995

    John 2:4 NASB 4 And Jesus *said to her, “What business do you have with Me, woman? My hour has not yet come.”

    John 2:4 (YLT) Young's Literal Translation: "4 Jesus saith to her, `What -- to me and to thee, woman? not yet is mine hour come.'

    2:4 λέγει αὐτῇ ὁ Ἰησοῦς Τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί γύναι οὔπω ἥκει ἡ ὥρα μου

    γυνή γύναι
    gynē



      • a woman of any age, whether a virgin, or married, or a widow
      • a wife
        1. of a betrothed woman

    The term in John 2:4 is not mother and is not Mary

    John 19:27
    19:27 εἶτα λέγει τῷ μαθητῇ Ἰδού, ἡ μήτηρ σου καὶ ἀπ᾽ ἐκείνης τῆς ὥρας ἔλαβεν αὐτὴν ὁ μαθητὴς εἰς τὰ ἴδια


    μήτηρ

    mētēr

    The KJV translates Strong's G3384 in the following manner: mother (85x).

    That term μήτηρ is not in John 2:4

    Nor is "Mary" in John 2:4
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2021
  5. robycop3

    robycop3 Newbie

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    Mary was the woman chosen to bear Jesus as a human. She was His surrogate mother. Remember, Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM."

    BTW, I don't believe one quark if the RCC's mariolatry.
     
  6. Lukaris

    Lukaris Orthodox Christian Supporter

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  7. Lukaris

    Lukaris Orthodox Christian Supporter

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    I am not Roman Catholic nor do I claim to understand their precise veneration of the blessed Virgin Mother ( I do not believe in the immaculate conception). I do not believe there is any idolatry in the RC tradition either. I do not claim to even fully understand Orthodox tradition of Mary either.

    The thing is early Christians held Mary in high regard as early as before 115 AD, the martyr St. Ignatius wrote to Ephesus:

    CHAPTER 19
    19:1 And hidden from the prince of this world were
    the virginity of Mary and her child-bearing and
    likewise also the death of the Lord -- three mysteries
    to be cried aloud -- the which were wrought in the
    silence of God.
    19:2 How then were they made manifest to the ages? A
    star shone forth in the heaven above all the stars;
    and its light was unutterable, and its strangeness
    caused amazement; and all the rest of the
    constellations with the sun and moon formed themselves
    into a chorus about the star; but the star itself far
    outshone them all; and there was perplexity to know
    whence came this strange appearance which was so
    unlike them.
    19:3 From that time forward every sorcery and every
    spell was dissolved, the ignorance of wickedness
    vanished away, the ancient kingdom was pulled down,
    when God appeared in the likeness of man unto _newness
    of_ everlasting _life;_ and that which had been
    perfected in the counsels of God began to take effect.
    Thence all things were perturbed, because the
    abolishing of death was taken in hand.

    Ignatius of Antioch to the Ephesians (Lightfoot translation)

    Ignatius of Antioch
     
  8. Valletta

    Valletta Well-Known Member

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    Mary is part of salvation history.
     
  9. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    I must say that is very clever eisegesis. I had not run across this before. Of course, it is utter nonsense, on the order of linking the verse "Judas went out and hung himself" with Jesus' commandment to "go and do thou likewise."
     
  10. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    For that matter, so are you.
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Your quote says that 3 things were "hidden" from the devil. (The prince of this world) Eph 2:2 , 2 Cor 4:4 (NASB) - and claims it was unknown to the OT that Christ would be born of a virgin.

    2 Cor 4:4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they will not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2021
  12. Lukaris

    Lukaris Orthodox Christian Supporter

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    Unknown to the prince of this world.
     
  13. fide

    fide Member of His Body by grace

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    Jesus shows perfect charity (that is, divine love). He commands us to love as He loves - not to be fond of one another with the fondness that is appreciated by people of this world. The love with which He loves, is supernatural - not the natural love of men in a fallen human nature. We are to learn from Him; He has nothing to learn from men, He knows what is in man:
    John 2:25 ... he knew all men and needed no one to bear witness of man; for he himself knew what was in man.

    John's Gospel must be very carefully listened to, if we are to hear it - and him - and Him - truly. It is by hearing this testimony that we can come into His Life! We must be attentive to all that is written here!

    John 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
    John 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

    His Life includes Mary, His mother and the mother of all who are in Him. This is what is happening at the Cross, with His mother and the disciple whom He loved. This is part of what the Church began to hear, very early in the history of His Church, and thus early on is an important element of the Faith of Christians.
     
  14. fide

    fide Member of His Body by grace

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    I think the choice of translation of the Greek shows a bias against what I believe to be the actual meaning of Jesus's comment: to paraphrase: Yes Mary is blessed in her personal motherhood of the Savior of mankind, but as for every person who will ever be saved by Him, including His mother, they are blessed by hearing His word, and keeping it. As Mary did most perfectly, by God's abundant grace given her.

    Thus Mary is uniquely singularly blessed in the role she was chosen to have - her motherhood - in the Incarnation of the Savior God; she was also to share in the blessings of all the faithful to come.
     
  15. fide

    fide Member of His Body by grace

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    The Truth of divine revelation may be found, if it is sought in real, authentic poverty of spirit. Many have ears to hear but do not; few, in humility, tremble at His word. We all must listen very carefully, and prayerfully, in humility and contriteness of spirit:
    Isa 66:2 All these things my hand has made, and so all these things are mine, says the LORD. But this is the man to whom I will look, he that is humble and contrite in spirit, and trembles at my word.
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Luke 11:
    27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” 28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” NASB

    Does not sound like Christ's "on the contrary" response to me.

    He could have said "In addition so are they also blessed that believe in Me" -- He did not choose to do that.

    His "on the contrary" response is not even allowed in the circles that choose the veneration path for their relationship to Mary.
     
  17. fide

    fide Member of His Body by grace

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    Hello Bob - Look up the word-for-word translation on the website Scripture for All - where an Interlinear Greek - to - English for Luke 11 can be found. The URL is:

    https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/luk11.pdf

    and then scroll down to verse 28. The word-for-word translation from the Greek to English is:

    Lk 11:28 He yet said indeed-then-surely happy the ones-hearing the saying of-the God and guarding him/it.

    The key word “Yet” is a whole lot weaker a conjunction connecting the verse preceding it, than your preferred translation which is “on the contrary”! You tell me what Jesus is actually saying here, and where the biased “eisegesis” really is.
     
  18. anna ~ grace

    anna ~ grace Newbie Supporter

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    It is good to see you again, Sir!
     
  19. anna ~ grace

    anna ~ grace Newbie Supporter

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    O Virgin Immaculate, Mother of God and my Mother, from your sublime heights turn your eyes of pity on me. Filled with confidence in your goodness and knowing full well your power, I beg you to extend to me your assistance in the journey of life, which is so full of dangers for my soul. In order that I may never be a slave of the devil through sin, but may ever live with my heart humble and pure, I entrust myself wholly to you. I consecrate my heart to you forever, my only desire being to love your divine Son, Jesus. Mary, none of your devout servants has ever perished; may I, too, be saved. Amen.

    Saint Ephraem of Edessa

    [​IMG]
     
  20. anna ~ grace

    anna ~ grace Newbie Supporter

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    Yes, a love of Mary is pulled along by Love.

    We can not imagine that Jesus did not love Mary, the Woman who bore Him, fed Him, held Him, loved Him, clothed Him, helped Him take His first steps, and raised Him. And was there at His death.

    Love will help us to love Mary. And to approach her with awe, love, humility, and amazement.
     
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