Is there really a 1000 year reign ?

[Markea]

It is interesting to note that many of the events that are said to occur at the end of the millennium are also found in Revelation 19. Some examples of such are found as follows:

A great concluding battle.
The rescue/defence of the righteous.
The union of the Bride and the Bridegroom.
The fiery destruction of all the wicked/world.
The origin of the fire being God.
A general judgment.

But nowhere in Revelation 19 or Revelation 20 or Revelation 21 do we find it written that it will take Jesus 1000 years to complete His future Second Coming.

Shirley

The irony of it all is that the amillennialist will use the same scriptures to say that these present times ARE the millennial kingdom of Christ.. strange isn't it..?

 

[Rafael]

To say that God cannot be King of a physical Kingdom, one might as well say that Jesus did not come in the flesh or even deny the physical existence they enjoy and live in. God has the power to do these things and why we would ever deny Him that power by spiritualizing away a physical Kingdom for the King of Kings and Lord of Lords escapes me??? He is God over the physical and the spiritual realms. We cannot deny the power of God, the Living breathing physical Word of God, and the word of all the prophets that spoke of the kingdoms of earth all falling to the last Kingdom that would be upon earth and prevail.

Daniel 2:44 "During the reigns of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed; no one will ever conquer it. It will shatter all these kingdoms into nothingness, but it will stand forever.
45 That is the meaning of the rock cut from the mountain by supernatural means, crushing to dust the statue of iron, bronze, clay, silver, and gold. "The great God has shown Your Majesty what will happen in the future. The dream is true, and its meaning is certain."

 

[ShirleyFord]

To say that God cannot be King of a physical Kingdom, one might as well say that Jesus did not come in the flesh or even deny the physical existence they enjoy and live in. God has the power to do these things and why we would ever deny Him that power by spiritualizing away a physical Kingdom for the King of Kings and Lord of Lords escapes me??? He is God over the physical and the spiritual realms. We cannot deny the power of God, the Living breathing physical Word of God, and the word of all the prophets that spoke of the kingdoms of earth all falling to the last Kingdom that would be upon earth and prevail.

Daniel 2:44 "During the reigns of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed; no one will ever conquer it. It will shatter all these kingdoms into nothingness, but it will stand forever.
45 That is the meaning of the rock cut from the mountain by supernatural means, crushing to dust the statue of iron, bronze, clay, silver, and gold. "The great God has shown Your Majesty what will happen in the future. The dream is true, and its meaning is certain."

Ironically Daniel 2 is speaking about our dear Savior's First Physical Coming.

The Great Image

Chapter 2:31-45

​

1. Golden Head - Babylonian empire - B.C. 606-538

2. Silver Arms - Mede-Persian empire - B.C. 538 -331
3. Brass Belly - Grecian Empire - B.C. 331-146
4. Iron Legs - Roman Empire - B.C. 146 to A.D. 1453



​

Stone Cut Out Of Mountain Without Hands​

Chapter 2:34-35

​

1. God's Kingdom - verse 44

2. established in the days of these kings - verse 44
3. will never be destroyed - verse 44
4. shall break and consume these kingdoms - verse 44
5. shall stand forever
6. stone: Matthew 21:42-44 I Peter 2:4-8 Isaiah 28:16
7. God's Kingdom established in time of Christ: Matthew 3:2;
Matthew 4:17; Mark 9:1; Luke 16:16; John 3:5; Revelation 1:9



​

Four Beasts​

Chapter 7

​

1. First beast - verse 4

1. Lion with eagles wings - symbolic: four beasts = four kings vs 17
2. historical fulfillment: Babylonian empire, Nebuchadnezzar
   

2. Second beast - verse 5

1. Bear, raised upon side with three ribs in mouth symbolic representation: cruel and bloodthirsty kingdom
2. historical fulfillment: Mede-Persian empire
   

3. Third Beast - verse 6

1. Leopard with four wings of a fowl and four heads ymbolic representation: mixture of nations and customs. Mixture of king's characteristics. Swiftness of conquest. Four heads - four generals over each of the kingdom's four providences
2. historical fulfillment: Grecian empire - Alexander the Great
   

4. Fourth Beast - verse 7-28

1. dreadful, terrible and exceedingly strong symbolic representation: powerful kingdom divided into 10 kingdoms
2. historical fulfillment: Roman empire

​

 

[Markea]

Again...that IS the irony of it all Shirley.. amillennialists claim that we're ALREADY IN the millennial kingdom of Christ...using Revelation 20 to support their claims.. and yet the context of Revelation 19 & 20 is CLEARLY His future coming... not something that has happened in the past..

It is strange to say the least..although such is preterism and amillennialism.. strange stuff..

 

[parousia70]

You are totally twisting Scripture.
The curse that God will not do again is the entire world flooded and destroyed by a flood.

Rather, without question, The curse which God repents from in Genesis 8:21 is found in Genesis 3:17

17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it': "Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.

The world that was destroyed was the 'age' before the flood of Noah.
Peter was speaking of the flood of Noah that deatroyed the world ', and Peter references that same flood and that same 'world' several times, being familiar with and quoting from the book of Enoch that was read by Believing Jews at the time of Christ, being included with the Septuagent that they read.

So your contention is that the 'world' Peter claims would be destroyed by fire is the "AGE" Peter was Born into and liven in?

If so, I would agree.

 

[ShirleyFord]

Again...that IS the irony of it all Shirley.. amillennialists claim that we're ALREADY IN the millennial kingdom of Christ...using Revelation 20 to support their claims.. and yet the context of Revelation 19 & 20 is CLEARLY His future coming... not something that has happened in the past..

It is strange to say the least..although such is preterism and amillennialism.. strange stuff..

First of all, I do not advocate the heretical view of preterism. Secondly, I have never said that the Second Coming of Christ is a past event. Thirdly, as the Bible declares, the thousand years of Revelation 20 is not the Second Coming of Christ. There is not one Scripture I can find to prove such. If you have found any, will you please present those exact Scriptures?

Thanks!

 

[parousia70]

Perhaps you completely miss the enormity of it parousia.. how that IT IS FUTURE..yet much of Christendom (including catholicism) views it in the preteristic sense...just as you do..

You have given no support for your contention that it is future other than your contention that it is future.

In contrast, I have shown how the Bible itself testifies of it's "then contemporary" fulfillment.

You need not take my word for it, take the word of God as it plainly declares by the mouth of at least three Apostles..

Peter says that the devil walks about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour..

Paul says that the god of this world has blinded (deceived) the minds of those that believe not... and he also says that we wrestle not against flesh and blood etc, but against principalities and powers, the rulers of darkness, spiritual wickedness in high places...

John says that the whole world lieth in wickedness..

Since the apostles lived and wrote in the age that preceeded the one we live in, your argument is moot.

If that's your idea of bound and unable to deceive, then so be it..

I NEVER said Satan was unable to decieve individuals today. Not once, EVER. Once again you attribute beliefs to me which I do not hold.

What I did say is that Satan no longer has the power to decieve NATIONS, just as scripture teaches.
You have done nothing to prove me wrong on that.

Contrary to your apparant assertion, unbelievers will NEVER share in Christ and the Church's victory over Satan.

Who might want people to believe that satan is bound and unable to deceive..? Any ideas come to mind..?

Rather, who might want people to believe Satan has the power to decieve nations when he really dosen't?

Not according to Revelation 20 it isn't...

Clearly you didn't even bother to read my previous post on the subject, for if you had, you'd have a lucid, point by point rebuttal. Instead you retreat to your "it's pointless to discuss this with preterists" diatribe......really, that line is tired.

Don't run away and hide, stand up for your beliefs. use the very scriptures I cited and show me why they don't mean what I contend.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Thanks for the article.. I have read this before although it doesn't convince me that it was not condemned as heresey..it practically seems to substantiate it more than anything..

I don't know how. Have you actually read the writings of the church councils? I spent time doing that, and found no condemnation of the view of the 1000 years being literal.

I suppose that the real issue is that much of Christendom has embraced the doctrine of amillennialism..although I will agree that this does not mean that the opposite views were condemned..

Yes, after the Roman Catholic church took dominance, and adopted the amillennenial view that was espoused by Augustine, premillennialism faded for a time.

There's a lot of articles like this.. and perhaps we'll never know for sure.. although the masses which speak for amillennialism are a pretty large crowd, and that voice is certainly still being heard today..

There is a large crowd that advocates purgatory too - but I can't buy into that. Or that we should pray to Christians who have physically died....or that the there should be a pope....

 

[Markea]

First of all, I do not advocate the heretical view of preterism. Secondly, I have never said that the Second Coming of Christ is a past event.

That's great...although you are amillennial..correct..? And if so.. what exactly do you base that on..?

Thirdly, as the Bible declares, the thousand years of Revelation 20 is not the Second Coming of Christ. There is not one Scripture I can find to prove such. If you have found any, will you please present those exact Scriptures?

Thanks!

I showed you the connection between Revelation 19 which DOES speak of Christ coming (with all His saints following Him) and taking the beast and false prophet, and throwing them into the lake of fire... Revelation 20 is connected to these verses in that they also speak of the beast.. in that those who had not worshipped him or his image.. (and were beheaded for that) lived and reigned with Christ..

If you can not see the connection, then that's fine..

 

[FreeinChrist]

First of all, I do not advocate the heretical view of preterism.

Praise the Lord!

Secondly, I have never said that the Second Coming of Christ is a past event.

Thirdly, as the Bible declares, the thousand years of Revelation 20 is not the Second Coming of Christ. There is not one Scripture I can find to prove such. If you have found any, will you please present those exact Scriptures?

The 1000 years is part of the Lords Second ADVENT - which starts with His coming. His coming is seen in REv. 19:11 and the reign in Rev. 20. It is also seen in Zechariah 12-14, specifically 14:

Zec 14:1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.

Zec 14:2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.

Zec 14:3 Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.

Zec 14:4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.
Zec 14:6 In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle.

Zec 14:7 For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.

Zec 14:8 And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be {the only} one, and His name {the only} one.

Zec 14:10 All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin's Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's wine presses.

Zec 14:11 People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security.

Zec 14:12 Now this will be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth.

Zec 14:13 It will come about in that day that a great panic from the LORD will fall on them; and they will seize one another's hand, and the hand of one will be lifted against the hand of another.

Zec 14:14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance.

Zec 14:15 So also like this plague will be the plague on the horse, the mule, the camel, the donkey and all the cattle that will be in those camps.

Zec 14:16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

Zec 14:17 And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.

Zec 14:18 If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no {rain will fall} on them; it will be the plague with which the LORD smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

Zec 14:19 This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.Zec 14:20 In that day there will {be inscribed} on the bells of the horses, "HOLY TO THE LORD." And the cooking pots in the LORD'S house will be like the bowls before the altar.

Zec 14:21 Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the LORD of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them. And there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts in that day.The Feast of the Booths (Tabernacles) follows the 10 days of Awe, and all 24 orders of priests were to be on duty during that feast. Part of the feast is the 'Living Water'.

The more I have studied the feasts that God set up for Israel, the more convinced I become of pretrib, premil.

 

[FreeinChrist]

But in none of these 10 Scriptures where we find 'thousand years' do we one time find that the thousand years is the Second Coming of Christ.

That the earthly reign will be 1000 years is not revealed until the vision was given to John.
That it involves the Second Coming of Christ is shown so clearly in the text of Rev. 19 - 20 I fail to see how one doesn't see it.

The Second Coming:
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it {is} called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.

Rev 19:12 His eyes {are} a flame of fire, and on His head {are} many diadems; and He has a name written {on Him} which no one knows except Himself.

Rev 19:13 {He is} clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white {and} clean, were following Him on white horses.

Rev 19:15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

Rev 19:16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

Rev 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God,

Rev 19:18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great."

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

Rev 19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
THEN:

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

Rev 20:3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut {it} and sealed {it} over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I {saw} the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


Christ comes...beast and FP defeated......Satan chained and sealed in a pit for 1000 years.....those who were beheaded by the beast are "made alive" and reign with Christ for 1000 years ....then Satan is let out for a short time.

 

[Steve Petersen]

G-d could have created everything in an instant.

Psa 33:6-9 (KJV) By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

But He created the Heavens and the Earth in six days.

Exo 20:11 (KJV) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Day 1 - The beginning of creation

Gen 1:1 (KJV) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Day 4 - The sun, a picture of Messiah

Gen 1:15-16 (KJV) And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

Mal 4:2 (KJV) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings;.

Day 6 - Man

Gen 1:27 (KJV) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Day 7 - Sabbath was made holy, or separated (kadosh): a picture of the Messianic Kingdom

Gen 2:2 (KJV) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Psa 90:4 (KJV) For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

2 Pet 3:8-10 (KJV) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

1000 years = 1 day. 7 days = 7000 years from creation until the end of time

The Jewish Sages concluded that the creation week was a pattern of the history of the world

Talmud
R. Kattina said: Six thousand years shall the world exist, and one [thousand, the seventh], it shall be desolate, as it is written, And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. Abaye said: it will be desolate two [thousand], as it is said, After two days will he revive us: in the third day, he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

It has been taught in accordance with R. Kattina: Just as the seventh year is one year of release in seven, so is the world: one thousand years out of seven shall be fallow, as it is written, And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day,’ and it is further said, A Psalm and song for the Sabbath day, meaning the day that is altogether Sabbath and it is also said, For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past.

The Tanna debe Eliyyahu teaches: The world is to exist six thousand years. In the first two thousand there was desolation; two thousand years the Torah flourished; and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era, but through our many iniquities all these years have been lost. (Sanhedrin 97a-b)

This idea is also found in extra-biblical writings during the period just prior to and after the birth of Yeshua

The Epistle of Barnabas

"And even in the beginning of the creation he makes mention of the sabbath. And God made in six days the works of his hands; and he finished them on the seventh day, and he rested the seventh day, and sanctified it. Consider, my children what that signifies, he finished in six days. The meaning of it is this; that in six thousand years the Lord God will bring all things to an end. For with him one day is a thousand years; as himself testifieth, saying, Behold this day shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, shall be accomplished. And what is that he saith, And he rested on the seventh day: he meanth this; that when his Son shall come, and abolish the season of the Wicked One, and Judge the ungodly; and shall change the sun and moon, and stars: then he shall gloriously rest in that seventh day (The Lost Books of the Bible, chp. 13:3-6, Bell Publishing Company, 1979 New York, p. 160-161)."

The Secrets of Enoch, Chapter 33

1And I appointed the eighth day also, that the eighth day should be the first-created after my work, and that the first seven revolve in the form of the seventh thousand, and that at the beginning of the eighth thousand there should be a time of not-counting, endless, with neither years nor months nor weeks nor days nor hours.

 

[ShirleyFord]

G-d could have created everything in an instant.

Psa 33:6-9 (KJV) By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

But He created the Heavens and the Earth in six days.

Exo 20:11 (KJV) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Day 1 - The beginning of creation

Gen 1:1 (KJV) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Day 4 - The sun, a picture of Messiah

Gen 1:15-16 (KJV) And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

Mal 4:2 (KJV) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings;.

Day 6 - Man

Gen 1:27 (KJV) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Day 7 - Sabbath was made holy, or separated (kadosh): a picture of the Messianic Kingdom

Gen 2:2 (KJV) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Psa 90:4 (KJV) For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

2 Pet 3:8-10 (KJV) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

1000 years = 1 day. 7 days = 7000 years from creation until the end of time

The Jewish Sages concluded that the creation week was a pattern of the history of the world

Talmud
R. Kattina said: Six thousand years shall the world exist, and one [thousand, the seventh], it shall be desolate, as it is written, And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. Abaye said: it will be desolate two [thousand], as it is said, After two days will he revive us: in the third day, he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

It has been taught in accordance with R. Kattina: Just as the seventh year is one year of release in seven, so is the world: one thousand years out of seven shall be fallow, as it is written, And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day,’ and it is further said, A Psalm and song for the Sabbath day, meaning the day that is altogether Sabbath and it is also said, For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past.

The Tanna debe Eliyyahu teaches: The world is to exist six thousand years. In the first two thousand there was desolation; two thousand years the Torah flourished; and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era, but through our many iniquities all these years have been lost. (Sanhedrin 97a-b)

This idea is also found in extra-biblical writings during the period just prior to and after the birth of Yeshua

The Epistle of Barnabas

"And even in the beginning of the creation he makes mention of the sabbath. And God made in six days the works of his hands; and he finished them on the seventh day, and he rested the seventh day, and sanctified it. Consider, my children what that signifies, he finished in six days. The meaning of it is this; that in six thousand years the Lord God will bring all things to an end. For with him one day is a thousand years; as himself testifieth, saying, Behold this day shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, shall be accomplished. And what is that he saith, And he rested on the seventh day: he meanth this; that when his Son shall come, and abolish the season of the Wicked One, and Judge the ungodly; and shall change the sun and moon, and stars: then he shall gloriously rest in that seventh day (The Lost Books of the Bible, chp. 13:3-6, Bell Publishing Company, 1979 New York, p. 160-161)."

The Secrets of Enoch, Chapter 33

1And I appointed the eighth day also, that the eighth day should be the first-created after my work, and that the first seven revolve in the form of the seventh thousand, and that at the beginning of the eighth thousand there should be a time of not-counting, endless, with neither years nor months nor weeks nor days nor hours.

Hence, the true origin of Premillennialism!

Thanks Steve.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Hence, the true origin of Premillennialism!

Thanks Steve.

Please explain that comment.

 

[Markea]

You have given no support for your contention that it is future other than your contention that it is future.

In contrast, I have shown how the Bible itself testifies of it's "then contemporary" fulfillment.

I'm truly sorry if you can't see a future prophetic aspect to the Revelation of Jesus Christ.. seriously.. That's sad...

Since the apostles lived and wrote in the age that preceeded the one we live in, your argument is moot.

And so you make the living and abiding word of God of no effect..

I NEVER said Satan was unable to decieve individuals today. Not once, EVER. Once again you attribute beliefs to me which I do not hold.

What I did say is that Satan no longer has the power to decieve NATIONS, just as scripture teaches.
You have done nothing to prove me wrong on that.

Contrary to your apparant assertion, unbelievers will NEVER share in Christ and the Church's victory over Satan.

So all of the nations are not deceived at this time.. ok, that's pretty sad too.

Rather, who might want people to believe Satan has the power to decieve nations when he really dosen't?

Yeah, seeing that all nations are getting along so well.. I'm sure there's nothing to be alarmed over.. everything's just fine..

Clearly you didn't even bother to read my previous post on the subject, for if you had, you'd have a lucid, point by point rebuttal. Instead you retreat to your "it's pointless to discuss this with preterists" diatribe......really, that line is tired.

Don't run away and hide, stand up for your beliefs. use the very scriptures I cited and show me why they don't mean what I contend.

I'm sorry parousia.. it really isn't pointless.. it's just plain sad.. Sad that so much of Christendom has bought into the lies of catholicism... so much so that people would be persuaded that these present times are actually the glorious kingdom of Jesus Christ... the King of kings and Lord of lords...

This present world... His Kingdom... ? ? ?

It truly is sad my friend.. that people would attribute this present world to the Kingdom of Jesus Christ..

 

[ShirleyFord]

That the earthly reign will be 1000 years is not revealed until the vision was given to John.
That it involves the Second Coming of Christ is shown so clearly in the text of Rev. 19 - 20 I fail to see how one doesn't see it.

The Second Coming:
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it {is} called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.

Rev 19:12 His eyes {are} a flame of fire, and on His head {are} many diadems; and He has a name written {on Him} which no one knows except Himself.

Rev 19:13 {He is} clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white {and} clean, were following Him on white horses.

Rev 19:15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

Rev 19:16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

Rev 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God,

Rev 19:18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great."

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

Rev 19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
THEN:

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

Rev 20:3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut {it} and sealed {it} over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I {saw} the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


Christ comes...beast and FP defeated......Satan chained and sealed in a pit for 1000 years.....those who were beheaded by the beast are "made alive" and reign with Christ for 1000 years ....then Satan is let out for a short time.

Thanks FreeinChrist for your reply.

But as hard as I try, I cannot find in any of these Scriptures from Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 where it is written that the day of the Lord, the Second Coming of Christ, is a thousand years.

The events in the book of Revelation cannot be in chronological order. For instance, Revelation 14:1 has Jesus standing on Mount Zion with the 144,000 Jews when the bowls are still yet to come in chapter 16 and his return in chapter 19. Revelation 11:15-19 states that Jesus has now received the kingdom and begun to reign, that the time for the dead to be judged has come, and that it is time to destroy those who destroy the earth. All of these are events which take place after the Tribulation. Revelation 7:15-17 seems to depict eternity (compare to 21:3-7). Revelation 10:7 states that with the seventh trumpet "the mystery of God is finished." Revelation 14:17-20 describes the harvest by the angels which Jesus said would take place at the "end of the age" (Matt. 13:39). Both 14:8 and 18:2 describe the fall of Babylon as if it has just taken place. Revelation 6:12-14 describes the great cosmic signs which Jesus said would take place "after the tribulation" (Matt. 24:29). And both 6:14 and 16:20 describe the disappearance of all mountains and islands.

Not only do these events parallel each other, but they parallel other passages in the NT outside of the book of Revelation, as well. They all show the same future Second Coming of Christ just as the birth, earthly ministry, arrest, crucifixion, resurrection and ascension are written in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, but not with the very same details of each event. That is the way we find the events of Revelation depicted.

 

[Markea]

Thanks FreeinChrist for your reply.

But as hard as I try, I cannot find in any of these Scriptures from Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 where it is written that the day of the Lord, the Second Coming of Christ, is a thousand years.

Shirley,

So then let me ask again... on what basis would you suggest that these present times are the millennial kingdom...?

That's if you are in fact amillennial of course.. perhaps you would share your position on that also..

Thanks

 

[ShirleyFord]

Please explain that comment.

Perhaps I misunderstood Steve's post. But it certainly appears to me that he was describing the Premillennium view using Jewish sages and extra-biblical writings to prove this view. If that is not the case, I am truly sorry for my misunderstanding and would appreciate clarification.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Perhaps I misunderstood Steve's post. But it certainly appears to me that he was describing the Premillennium view using Jewish sages and extra-biblical writings to prove this view. If that is not the case, I am truly sorry for my misunderstanding and would appreciate clarification.

Dear Shirley,

Enoch is not a Jewish sage.
Peter was using Enoch's writings, and so was Jude, and so was the LORD Jesus -and of course, the evil spirits that Jesus cast out quoted from the Book of Enoch.

The book of Enoch was used along with the Septuagent in the time of Christ, and Jude, Peter, Jesus, and the evil spirits that JEsus cast out quoted from it.

Job quoted from it, and so did satan allude to it, in Job.


The ancient Jews understood that the earth was to have seven thousand years before the new beginning. That is how Peter knew that the Day of the LORD began as a thief in the night and ended with the melting of the elements and the regeneration of this present heavens and earth and the new heavens and earth being formed from the same elements.

Job knew that His redeemer lived and was God and the he would be resurrected in his flesh and see Him with his own eyes and that He would stand on the earth in the 'last day'; which 'last day' is that great and glorious Sabbath Day for this earth.

Jesus promised to raise from the dead those who believed in Him 'at' the 'last Day'; which resurrection of the dead in Christ from the dust and the 'laqach' of the Church begins the 'last Day' of the one thousand years of the Sabbath rest of 'thousands' of this present earth.

The sign of circumcision is the sign given to Abraham and his seed as a living oracle to show that all the seed of Adam will be 'cut off' in the eighth day -of thousands, of course, as earth has to have her Sabbath, the seventh thousand, first, which is the 'last day' of this present earth.

Jeasus Christ came at the beginning of the 'fourth day' of this present creation, of thousands, and that was the beginning of the 'last days' of this earth, with only 'three' more to go, of thousands, before this earth and heavens are melted and regenerated; and it is acounted as in a regular week: for the beginning of the week, the middle and the end are all spoken of in normal conversation and historical writings, along with first day and last day of the week.

In Hosea, the fact of the nation of Israel being cut off for two thousand years and raised up in the third thousand is plain -to those who read history and the Word.

It is Israel that he has torn and who as a nation is speaking in this chapter -no other- for the theme of Hosea is Israel's redemption:

Hosea 6
Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.
3 Let us know,
Let us pursue the knowledge of the Lord.
His going forth is established as the morning;
He will come to us like the rain,
Like the latter and former rain to the earth."

Israel has been raised up as a nation again -and 'on the third day' -the 'last day' of this earth's thousands, Israel will be restored as the kingdom of the Lord, again, for the millennial reign.

 

[parousia70]

I'm truly sorry if you can't see a future prophetic aspect to the Revelation of Jesus Christ.. seriously.. That's sad...

Forcably removing the original receivers of that revelation from any application is what's sad, especially in light of the clear scriptural testimony to the contrary.

Your claim that the Revelation of Jesus Christ was not FOR those Christians who FIRST received it dosen't hold up under any sober scrutiny.

And so you make the living and abiding word of God of no effect..

How so?

So all of the nations are not deceived at this time.. ok, that's pretty sad too.

Again I challenge you to show me one single nation on earth today that does not have at least one Christian citizen.

You can't.

In contrast, prior to the apostolic generation, all nations were kept from the light of Christ, deceived by Satan.

Yeah, seeing that all nations are getting along so well.. I'm sure there's nothing to be alarmed over.. everything's just fine..

Political strife is of no eternal consiquence, but If you must judge Christ's current power over the earth by the newspapers instead of scripture, I can't help you.

I'm sorry parousia.. it really isn't pointless.. it's just plain sad.. Sad that so much of Christendom has bought into the lies of catholicism... so much so that people would be persuaded that these present times are actually the glorious kingdom of Jesus Christ... the King of kings and Lord of lords...

To assert that Christ is NOT the King over ALL the earth TODAY, currently reigning in FULL power and authority is simply blasphemous.

It truly is sad my friend.. that people would attribute this present world to the Kingdom of Jesus Christ..

Scripture makes the assertion, my responsibility is to bring my view in line with the clear scriptural testimony.

Jesus Christ is the Current ruler over this present heaven and earth, and we Christians who make up his body currently share in that dominion. It's high time we started acting like it.

This present world... His Kingdom... ? ? ?

Jesus Said so:

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

What I can't figure out is why you would even dare argue against that claim?

Scripture continues in that testimony:

Eph 1: 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.

All biblical expectations of the ever-expanding dominion of God's kingdom and righteousness on earth are carried out by, in, and through Christ and His Church (Isaiah 9:6-7; Daniel 7:27; Lk 1:33; Eph 3:9-11,21; Heb 12:27-28; Matt 21:43; Titus 2:14; Rev 5:9-10; Rev 2:26; Matt 25:21). The Church is the very Body of Christ, the "fullness of Him that fills all in all" (Eph 1:22-23). As St Paul wrote, "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever" (Eph 3:21).

Quite simply, All power in heaven and earth belongs to Christ and his people (Matt 28:18-19; Matt 16:18-19).

To argue otherwise (as you do) makes a mockery of everything Christ has wrought through His Birth, Life, Death and Resurrection.