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Is there life after physical death, and is there a God?

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by RBPerry, Mar 31, 2020.

  1. RBPerry

    RBPerry Christian Baby Boomer Supporter

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    May I suggest we put all religions aside and try to determine if nirvana, meaning the soul of a person continues to exist beyond physical bodily death, or is there oblivion and that needs no explanation.

    The next issue then with a belief that there is existence beyond death, who is the governing body.

    May I suggest we begin with no religious arguments but look for evidence outside of religion.

    There is a group that has done tremendous research on this subject, and there are many books written. The group that I have studied is the www.neardeathesperiences.com, among others.

    The research is based on experiences of people who have died, were resuscitated or came back to life on their own. One must look at the credentials of the people doing the study as well as those who have had these experiences.

    If someone is truly interested, I would suggest a book by Melvin Morse, M.D. co authored with Paul Perry. There are many more but that is a very good start.

    Evidence, we are looking at circumstantial evidence, however many legal cases are solved by overwhelming circumstantial evidence. I ask a friend that is a well know criminal attorney what constitutes a conviction on circumstantial evidence alone. His response was “When the evidence is so overwhelming that there are no other possible conclusions.”

    I’m asking if atheist, agnostics, and theist will be willing to look at the research and attempt to put your presuppositions aside for the time being.
     
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  2. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Your first statement is to put all Religions aside, then you turn right around and espouse your own Religious belief.

    As long as you keep this as your core belief in this thread it cannot be discussed objectively.

    NIRVANA:
    noun
    (often initial capital letter) Pali nibbana. Buddhism. freedom from the endless cycle of personal reincarnations, with their consequent suffering, as a result of the extinction of individual passion, hatred, and delusion: attained by the Arhat as his goal but postponed by the Bodhisattva.
    (often initial capital letter) Hinduism. salvation through the union of Atman with Brahma; moksha.
    a place or state characterized by freedom from or oblivion to pain, worry, and the external world.

    noun
    Buddhism Hinduism final release from the cycle of reincarnation attained by extinction of all desires and individual existence, culminating (in Buddhism) in absolute blessedness, or (in Hinduism) in absorption into Brahman

    In Buddhism, the highest state of consciousness, in which the soul is freed from all desires and attachments. Nirvana is sometimes inaccurately used as a synonym for heaven or paradise.
     
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  3. cloudyday2

    cloudyday2 Generic Theist Supporter

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    The link in your OP is broken, but it is an interesting topic to discuss. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2020
  4. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    "Put all religious views aside"

    "nirvana" Jumps straight to a religious view.
     
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  5. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    @RBPerry Well, the title of your thread asks is there a God. My answer to that question is yes, emphatically yes!And imho it is impossible to discuss life truthfully and exclude God. Mankind is an eternal being, designed to live forever. The composition of man is spirit, soul, and body. The body is the mortal decaying part of man. As you called it, it is physical and it dies.The eternal side is soul and spirit.That part lives on somewhere after death of the body. But you have to make a decision where your soul and spirit spends eternity. There is no oblivion.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2020
  6. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    @JIMINZ I am sorry, I did not mean to quote your post.
     
  7. RBPerry

    RBPerry Christian Baby Boomer Supporter

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    I'm sorry, my mistake, it is Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife is the correct link.

    No, I quoted a Buddhist belief, not mine. I know what it means.

    My core questions are. Is there continued existence beyond our physical life.
    If you can come to a belief that there is, then who or what is managing that existence.

    To me, it is a waste of time to debate religious beliefs if the initial premise is that there is no life after death.
    It is obvious I have religious beliefs based my Christian faith. Let's exclude the bible, or any other religious teachings and look at studies that have been done concerning life beyond physical death.
     
  8. RBPerry

    RBPerry Christian Baby Boomer Supporter

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    On the Near-death website there is a tremendous amount of information, if someone hasn't studied it then it will take a little time to wade through it. I personally don't agree with everything on the web site, but to me it is a starting place for meaningful discussion. There is an entire section devoted to atheist beliefs.
     
  9. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    As a Christian I cannot devoid myself from knowing that God is the source of all existence.

    As far as the NDE of people, I do not believe it has any validity at all, it is the body's shutting down and the electrical impulses that naturally occurs at that time during a persons death.

    The mere fact a person doesn't actually die physically, does not mean they actually go anywhere, let alone to Hell or to Heaven.

    I personally do not see any valid point in this occurring either for the NDE person or anybody else.

    What are the statistics of people in the Secular Society coming to Christ after hearing about a NDE experience.

    What other purpose would there be for an NDE?
    Jesus said about this subject.

    Luke 16:31
    And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

    "IS THERE A GOD?"

    Psa. 14:1
    To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

    Psa. 53:1
    To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

    That's good enough for me.

    Sorry, I could not discuss your topics without the understanding I have as a Christian.
     
  10. RBPerry

    RBPerry Christian Baby Boomer Supporter

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    Jiminz, I'm not asking anyone to give up their religious convictions. Many atheist believe there is no life beyond our physical life, and reject any religious beliefs. So lets look outside the religious beliefs and what evidence supports life after death.
     
  11. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    The only thing that supports such a belief would be a belief in God.

    Evolution supports life without cause, then death must follow suit for such a belief.
     
  12. cloudyday2

    cloudyday2 Generic Theist Supporter

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    Maybe it is the noisy body shutting down at death that allows us to notice the subtle existence and experiences of our spirit? This might be a way to understand the enlightenment that some claim to experience in meditation.
     
  13. RBPerry

    RBPerry Christian Baby Boomer Supporter

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    That theory has been explored extensively, it was referred to as the dying brain theory. There are many examples that will prove that theory wrong in my opinion. First being subjects that were clinically dead, meaning no brain activity that could be detected by an EEG or other tests.

    The other issue is people being able to describe activities going on that they observed while being out of their body and clinically dead.

    What I have found in the past is most atheist won't tackle this subject. The other side is Christians that refuse to look at anything that fails to fit into the beliefs they have.

    I was an atheist, then a Buddhist, and now a Christian primarily based on many things I learned on the above mentioned website, however I don't fit into the orthodox or fundamentalist clubs.
     
  14. Jok

    Jok Active Member

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    Yeah but tossing religions off to the side before having the conversation of is there life after physical death won’t even make sense to many Christians because their belief that Jesus physically died, and then came back from the death, is precisely the reason that they believe that there is life after physical death in the first place.

    You disallowed the Christians to state their exact reason for why they believe in it in your opening sentence lol.

    I’m not saying that it’s not cool to discuss life after physical death reasoning in addition to the resurrection, but I’m just saying not to be shocked if many Christians don’t chime in because Christianity IS their reason.

    As for me, I have a hard time calling the end of the life cycle of my physical brain the same thing as the end of me because I don’t understand how all of my feelings, emotions, desires, sorrows, etc, can be the result of biochemical firings inside of a glob of mush, even though I realize that my coherence is intimately dependent on that glob of mush in some way. I have these disconnects between me and my physical brain that don’t make sense. I’m about to probably seriously insult myself here lol, but if my brain is more advanced than the most complex supercomputer on Earth why do ‘I’ represent about .0000001% of it’s intelligence? Where oh where is that super computing power in my life? Give me a math problem and I can’t help you without a pen & paper. Watch me forget things from yesterday. How am ‘I’ possibly the same thing as this computational super computer in my skull?

    Then you hear these rare stories about people who have brain trauma and they come out of it as a super genius. Some of them talk about seeing numbers in color, they can do math like a calculator afterwards! But It’s still them, their favorite movie didn’t change, they didn’t all the sudden like opera instead of baseball, or wake up hating people they loved or loving people they hated. But why not?? Why not have complete personality alterations if they ARE their brain? That brain just got mentally transformed into a super genius due to an injury, so why didn’t the personhood change too? It’s as if a part of the super computing power of THEIR BRAIN leaked into THEM. You can argue about specific regions of the brain I suppose, but a problem is that they haven’t really found a personality region of the brain. Or at least not that I know of.

    I can somewhat relate with some of my experiences of drinking alcohol, or caffeine, eating super healthy and getting incredible sleep vs eating like crap on 3 hours of sleep, etc. So I can somewhat imagine being in a freak accident where a fraction of this incredibly powerful supercomputer called my brain (that I have no access to beyond simple arithmetic, even though science will tell me that my brain IS me) leaks into ME and all the sudden my mental clarity is beyond my wildest dreams, but yet it’s still me.

    On the other side of it you might want to say that people with concussion problems or mental disorders cease to be THEM judging by their new strange behavior, due to a compromised brain, so you might say that that situation would be an argument that a person IS their brain because their personalities have changed. But I don’t think it works the same way in reverse. A damaged product is simply a damaged product, it’s not up to the task of working properly. Be it a damaged car, TV, brain, etc, it’s NOT WORKING properly. It’s not the same thing as comparing a properly ok brain with a super charged excellent brain, because both of those brain are in proper working condition. I even personally had an episode before on a bad dose of medication and trust me I was MIA, even though an outside observer who didn’t know me might have mistaken me for just a very strange person. People I know who have had episodes as well said the same thing, that they were not all there!

    I also find it interesting how Christianity talks about us needing to be physically linked up to new spiritual bodies after death. We won’t be bodiless spirits floating around. Almost like WE can not come into focus without a physical entity to attach to, whether it be a glob of mush called a brain, or be a spiritual body. Yet WE are not the equivalent of that physical glob of mush or that spiritual body.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2020
  15. RBPerry

    RBPerry Christian Baby Boomer Supporter

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    Jok, my purpose isn't to disallow Christian input, but for those who believe there is no God, and no life after physical death can look outside of religion for proof of continued existence. To me it is amazing when a person that was an atheist dies, and returns to life and then becomes a priest because of his near death experience.
    If you are going to build a case for whatever you believe, you need to start with the basics. I'm attempting to start with the basics, is there life beyond the grave, if so, who controls your life in the spiritual world, or what will your life be like beyond the grave.
    If a person is convinced that there is nothing beyond the grave, then all the religious debates in the world won't mean a thing.
    The information I suggested is based on not only personal experiences but also scientific evidence and theory's. Many physiological studies have also been done with some amazing finds.

    What I believe most atheist that post on this forum will not evaluate the information that is available and bring to the table their viewpoints. Meaning, they really have no interest in finding anything that may rattle their beliefs.

    I'm attempting to present this in the simplest manner possible so anyone can read and evaluate for themselves.
     
  16. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    The provided link is broken.

    But moving forward, can we determine the definition of 'death' first? Maybe let's go this route first...? What's [more] likely, that sometimes:

    1.) Pronouncement of 'death' comes a little premature?

    Or,


    2.) The party was really and truly dead, and came back to life?

    If we can establish the later, (i.e.) option 2.), that 'true death' was achieved, and that individuals truly came back from death, then we can move forward.... Otherwise, in option 1.), the conversation is basically over...?
     
  17. RBPerry

    RBPerry Christian Baby Boomer Supporter

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    As I stated above the correct web site is Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife

    You are correct to a degree that one must confirm actual death. That issue has been dealt with on the web site and is too extensive to deal with in one post.

    The criteria is not merely a heart and breathing stopping, but a flat line EEG alone with other test showing no brain activity you have clinical death even if the person is on life support. If one reviews the cases it becomes apparent that many were clinically dead and dead for an extended period of time.

    However since I have seen many people die, it is obvious with some the spirit leaves the body prior to physical death, and that is why you have so many out of body testimonies that are extremely hard to dispute.

    To state that the conversation is over without a full review of the information available is basically saying you aren't willing to consider other evidence, to me that isn't prudent, and certainly not rational for honest research.
     
  18. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    Okay. Give me the 'best' single example you have, for starters?


    Okay. Give me the 'best' example you have, for starters?

    Prove it.


    I'm willing to review. But as I stated prior, if they were pronounced 'dead', but weren't; then they weren't really dead :)
     
  19. Mitty

    Mitty Member

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    And do you have any actual evidence to support your claim, or is it just an hypothesis or wishful thinking?
    And how many gods are there since the bible says there are many gods (Deut 10:17) which held a meeting to discuss creating a male person in the image and likeness of the male creator god and creating a female person in the image and likeness of a goddess presumably (Gen 1:26-27)?

    And how did Abraham et al decide where their souls and spirits spend eternity, given that they didn't go to heaven (John 3:13) and didn't believe in Jesus and didn't repent and weren't born again?
     
  20. Jok

    Jok Active Member

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    I haven’t checked out the link yet, but I would be very interested to hear about any interviews with neutral doctors or nurses who talk about patients verifying things that they possibly could not have known about. I don’t know if the stories that I’ve heard in the past were myth or not, never looked into it. Like someone with no brain activity confirming a conversation that took place at that exact time like a nurse talking about their cat being in the vet for a broken leg.
     
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