Is there life after physical death, and is there a God?

[RBPerry]

Okay. Give me the 'best' single example you have, for starters?


I'm willing to review. But as I stated prior, if they were pronounced 'dead', but weren't; then they weren't really dead

You say you are willing to review, but your questions imply you haven't even evaluated any of the information on the website. So you want me to do your homework for you.

How many people have you watch die?

 

[RBPerry]

Mitty, Jok, if you haven't reviewed the web site then it is impossible to debate specifics. I would recommend starting with atheist near death experiences. I would then move to the scientific theory's from quantum physics.

https://www.near-death.com/science/evidence/people-have-ndes-while-brain-dead.html#a01
Here is a link to Pam Reynolds brain surgery, for a start, read the entire report.

https://www.near-death.com/science/evidence/some-people-were-dead-for-several-days.html

George Rodonaia (died 2004) underwent one of the most extended cases of a near-death experience ever recorded.......................

https://www.near-death.com/philosophy/atheism-and-ndes.html

Now read about all of these atheist and their experiences.

Now do your homework.

 

[cvanwey]

You say you are willing to review, but your questions imply you haven't even evaluated any of the information on the website. So you want me to do your homework for you.

How many people have you watch die?

Please do not 'straw man' me. I'm asking you for a very specific request, as I'm aware 'evidence' can be somewhat subjective, based upon someone's bias/other. Otherwise, you would not have a congregation of 'flat-earthers' out there still in society

Give me (your) best example of your claim(s)?

Furthermore, I work in a hospital; so I trust your last question now needs little elaboration

 

[RBPerry]

No 'straw man' intended, and I have posted that information.

So you work in a hospital, then you know it is the nurses and respiratory therapist are the ones normally with a person when they die. Now I do realize in ER many times the ER physicians are present with a person dies. You ask for proof of being able to tell when the spirit leaves the body, you know there is no way to prove that, your implication is that I'm delusional or lying, I am neither.
Next time you watch someone die, pay close attention to all your senses.

 

[ananda]

May I suggest we put all religions aside and try to determine if nirvana, meaning the soul of a person continues to exist beyond physical bodily death, or is there oblivion and that needs no explanation.

The next issue then with a belief that there is existence beyond death, who is the governing body.

Why must there be a governing body, instead of governing law?

 

[RBPerry]

Why must there be a governing body, instead of governing law?

Good question, and I know where you are coming from, but in reality it would be the same. Law is established by someone, now if you are talking about moral ethics based on enlightenment that is a totally different matter.

 

[ananda]

Good question, and I know where you are coming from, but in reality it would be the same. Law is established by someone, now if you are talking about moral ethics based on enlightenment that is a totally different matter.

We can directly observe & grasp those laws for ourselves since they manifest in our own experience. It doesn't seem like we can directly observe & grasp any "someone" who may or may not have established those laws.

 

[cvanwey]

No 'straw man' intended, and I have posted that information.

You can post link after link after link. This does not require that I must read all of it. All I'm asking for, is for you to give me (your best example), for starters. Can you do that? This is the third request. Together, we can then explore accordingly.

So you work in a hospital, then you know it is the nurses and respiratory therapist are the ones normally with a person when they die. Now I do realize in ER many times the ER physicians are present with a person dies.

Okay. So? Why does it matter whether it is the MD or the janitor who witnesses the assumed last breath /death?

You ask for proof of being able to tell when the spirit leaves the body, you know there is no way to prove that,

Then how are you able to assert the following?

(post #18) "it is obvious with some the spirit leaves the body prior to physical death, and that is why you have so many out of body testimonies that are extremely hard to dispute."

You can again address the question above; "Why does it matter whether it is the MD or the janitor who witnesses the assumed last breath / death?"

your implication is that I'm delusional or lying, I am neither.

Unfortunately, another straw man I am not implicating any such thing. All we can do is investigate the claims, and decide for ourselves. Currently, I am under the assumption that all claims to 'near-death experiences' are just that... "Near death" and not "actual death" You now admit you cannot prove your claim. So why should I take your claim seriously?

Next time you watch someone die, pay close attention to all your senses.

I have. I'm no stranger to comfort care, hospice, etc... What exactly should I be looking for?

 

[Jok]

Why must there be a governing body, instead of governing law?

Does the governing law care about right and wrong?

 

[ananda]

Does the governing law care about right and wrong?

No, the law seems to be mechanical in operation: skillful behavior leads to skillful results; unskillful behavior leads to unskillful results.

 

[RBPerry]

You can post link after link after link. This does not require that I must read all of it.

Okay. So? Why does it matter whether it is the MD or the janitor who witnesses the assumed last breath /death?

Then how are you able to assert the following?

(post #18) "it is obvious with some the spirit leaves the body prior to physical death, and that is why you have so many out of body testimonies that are extremely hard to dispute."




I have. I'm no stranger to comfort care, hospice, etc... What exactly should I be looking for?

The links that I posted are very lengthy, I can not post the entire documents on this web site. You asked for one of my best examples, Pan Reynolds had brain surgery, they drained her brain of all blood. You should know that means clinically brain dead.

No you don't need to read it, but the information is there, if there are specific issues then we can debate them on this forum. If you choose not to review the links that I have posted then there really isn't anything to discuss or debate.

Let me ask you, are you a doctor? If so in what are area of medicine do you practice?

Have you ever experienced a patient going flat line and then after a period of time without medical intervention having life return to their body?

Have you ever had a patient say they had an out of body experience during surgery, possibly at a time when the heart was stopped?

You are correct that their are near death cases where the person wasn't clinically dead but claimed to have an out of body experience, then cases where the person was clinically dead for a period of time and had similar experiences such as George Rodonaia. Ever have a patient come back to life in the morgue, these are all verified.

As for knowing when the spirit leaves the body I now realize that I shouldn't have mentioned that because I can't prove it and I also know one needs to have a spiritual discernment to experience it. A close friend of mine Larry Nagel was a medic in Vietnam, he can also testify to the same experience, sometimes that's all we have is personal testimonies especially on spiritual matters.

 

[Jok]

No, the law seems to be mechanical in operation: skillful behavior leads to skillful results; unskillful behavior leads to unskillful results.

But if true, definitely luck also.

 

[ananda]

But if true, definitely luck also.

Other factors are definitely involved, perhaps a combination of causes to produce any specific effect.

 

[RBPerry]

No, the law seems to be mechanical in operation: skillful behavior leads to skillful results; unskillful behavior leads to unskillful results.

Meaning good behavior results in good results, and visa versa. Problem with that is many that have very good behavior suffer some very bad results.

 

[ananda]

Meaning good behavior results in good results, and visa versa. Problem with that is many that have very good behavior suffer some very bad results.

Yes, there are multiple causes behind every effect.

 

[Jok]

Other factors are definitely involved, perhaps a combination of causes to produce any specific effect.

With his skillset Billy Madison got very lucky lol

 

[Mitty]

Mitty, Jok, if you haven't reviewed the web site then it is impossible to debate specifics. I would recommend starting with atheist near death experiences. I would then move to the scientific theory's from quantum physics.

https://www.near-death.com/science/evidence/people-have-ndes-while-brain-dead.html#a01
Here is a link to Pam Reynolds brain surgery, for a start, read the entire report.

https://www.near-death.com/science/evidence/some-people-were-dead-for-several-days.html

George Rodonaia (died 2004) underwent one of the most extended cases of a near-death experience ever recorded.......................

https://www.near-death.com/philosophy/atheism-and-ndes.html

Now read about all of these atheist and their experiences.

Now do your homework.

So what has any of that got to do with the claim that gods exist?

 

[RBPerry]

So what has any of that got to do with the claim that gods exist?

Unbelievable! You must be kidding.
Try reading this as an opener, then come back and ask that question.

Chapter 1
The Search for God and Afterlife in the Age of Science
by Dr. Ken R. Vincent
Table of Contents

1.Abstract and Keywords
2.Introduction Transpersonal Experiences
3.Transpersonal Experiences Prior to 1850
a.Plato, Zoroaster, St. Paul and St. Gregory the Great
4.First Period of Scientific Research into Transpersonal Experiences (1850s-1920s)
a.Mid-19th Century Medical Science, Eastern Religions and Psychical Research
b.Important Ground-Breaking Transpersonal Studies
I.Frederick Myers' Study
II.Henry Sidgwick's Study
III.James Hyslop's Study
IV.William James' Study
5.Intermediate Period (1930s -1950s) and Second Period (1960s to Present) of Scientific Research into Transpersonal Experiences
a.Carl Jung and Transpersonal Experiences
b.Abraham Maslow and Transpersonal Psychology
c.Timothy Leary's LSD Research
d.Walter Pahnke's Psychedelic Research
e.Transpersonal Experiences and Psychosis
f.Sir Alister Hardy's Religious Experience Research
g.Osis and Haraldsson's Transpersonal Experience Research
h.The Beginning of Near-Death Experience Research
i.Scientific Theories Attempt to Explain Near-Death Experiences
j.Inducing Transpersonal Experiences
k.Religion and Near-Death Experiences
6.Conclusion
7.References

 

[Mitty]

Unbelievable! You must be kidding.

Do you have any actual evidence that gods exist or that there is "life" after physical death, or is it just wishful thinking?

 

[cvanwey]

You asked for one of my best examples, Pan Reynolds had brain surgery, they drained her brain of all blood. You should know that means clinically brain dead.

No you don't need to read it, but the information is there, if there are specific issues then we can debate them on this forum. If you choose not to review the links that I have posted then there really isn't anything to discuss or debate.

I skimmed the material. But I'm not going to invest much time, until you point me into a specific direction. I could read the entire piece(s), reply with rebuttal(s), only to have you then state that those areas of rebuttal aren't what compelled you regardless

Rather, if you do not mind, would you point me to the specific area in question within the cited article?

Let me ask you, are you a doctor? If so in what are area of medicine do you practice?

Does it really matter? Does an MD receive a course(s) in distinguishing 'the spirit leaving the body', where-as an RN, RT, pastor, family, other, does not?

Have you ever experienced a patient going flat line and then after a period of time without medical intervention having life return to their body?

Define 'period of time'? Are you familiar with ACLS protocol? Further, is it possible pronoucement of 'death' sometimes happens prematurely?

Have you ever had a patient say they had an out of body experience during surgery, possibly at a time when the heart was stopped?

Yes. I've also had colleagues tell me of their own 'personal experiences'.

You are correct that their are near death cases where the person wasn't clinically dead but claimed to have an out of body experience, then cases where the person was clinically dead for a period of time and had similar experiences such as George Rodonaia. Ever have a patient come back to life in the morgue, these are all verified.

Details please?

As for knowing when the spirit leaves the body I now realize that I shouldn't have mentioned that because I can't prove it and I also know one needs to have a spiritual discernment to experience it. A close friend of mine Larry Nagel was a medic in Vietnam, he can also testify to the same experience, sometimes that's all we have is personal testimonies especially on spiritual matters.

Thank you for acknowledging that anecdotal testimonials are a dime a dozen: