Is There Faith In Calvinist System?

[Mark Quayle]

That sounds like a wonderful sound statement for it seems to honor God. The way you say this God owns the whole business that's got to be rightly defined. God actually made man and gave HIM dominion Gen 1:26 over the physicals creation. (see Ps 89:11, Ps 8:6)

Does God giving man dominion over the physical earth imply that God did not control man and through man, the earth, or perhaps more to the point that YOU can relate to, did God giving man dominion over the physical earth, imply that God was not to oversee the whole matter?

Either way, logically, with God as first cause, every detail that results from first cause was caused by first cause. God did it. You will be unable to show me anything that is, that did not result from first cause, except first cause himself. But further than that, or maybe I should say, within that, God by his attribute of "Immanence" (look it up; spelled precisely that way), is intimately involved in every detail of his effects.

Because of Adam and Eves rebellion Satan became the god of this world but there was a promise from God that he would ultimately defeat Satan by the seed of the woman. If God owned the whole business in the way that you say he would never have had to become a man to being deliverance. If he owned the whole business then he'd just own it so your statements on the surface seem honorable but they're just not according to scripture.

Just like above, is there some reason to believe God does not have Satan under his control? Do you not realize that God restrains Satan? Why can't you consider God as outside of, or above, this whole matter, instead of for some reason a mere co-player with sentient creatures within this temporal economy?

Even the devils said to Jesus have you come to torment us before the time? If he was owning the whole business there would be no time lapse. The devil would be judged right now.

Haha! REALLY!!?? Do you not admit to Scripture, when it says, "You put all things under his feet. For in making man the ruler over all things, God did not put anything outside his authority; though we do not see everything under him now."

What is Romans 9 referring to with, "What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?"



Mark Quayle said:
I think we're just about done here.

Yeah sure. Whatever.

I see myself descending once again into the scorn I felt last night at your (to me) vacuous arguments. I'll take a break here.

 

[Hammster]

Here is the history of an interaction to which you just accused me of strawmaning. What did you mean in the second quote from the top (Post 179)? Please explain yourself.

From my point of view your Post 179 is an incomplete thought and I filled in with my statement you were responding to (top quote).

Slaves are obedient to their masters. And slaves cannot set themselves free or dictate what they want to do. They need someone outside of themselves to either free them, or buy them from their previous slave owners. Those who are now slaves of righteousness have been purchased to be obedient to the One who purchased them with His blood.

 

[John Mullally]

Slaves are obedient to their masters. And slaves cannot set themselves free or dictate what they want to do. They need someone outside of themselves to either free them, or buy them from their previous slave owners. Those who are now slaves of righteousness have been purchased to be obedient to the One who purchased them with His blood.

The above (first quote - Post 225) is your explanation for the following post (second post - Post 179). Your explanation adds that slaves "need someone outside of themselves to either free them , or buy them from their previous slave owners".

You’ve made being a slave to sin a moot point. You have a slave to sin doing the same thing as a slave to righteousness. And that’s besides having someone in the flesh pleasing God.

The information added in your additional information (first quote) causes your original post lines up with my quote below (from Post 204) - for which your cried foul, saying that I straw manned you.

In my quote to which you accuse me of straw manning you, I say "somethng must be done to or for the sinner (slave to sin) by God in order for the sinner to respond to the Gospel". In your explanation you agree and now with the addition information include the specifics by saying that the something is "someone outside of themselves to either free them, or buy them from their previous slave owners".

Your first captured quote above, indicates that the power of the Gospel is not effective on the slave to sin. In other words somethng must be done to or for the sinner (i.e. slave to sin) by God in order for the sinner to respond to the Gospel.

God sets man free and saves man through the preaching of the Gospel. God gives faith to those who hear the word of God (Romans 10:17). The hearing of the Word of God is included in the preaching of the Gospel. And the Gospel is the power of God to those who believe (Romans 1:16). Slaves to sin can hear the Gospel per Ezekiel 18:30-32, explained in the next paragraph.

Sinful man can repent without God changing his nature: Ezekiel 18:30-32 indicates that OT Jewish sinners on their way to death are able to repent before God does something to change their nature - as in this passage God promises to give a new heart and a new spirit in response to those sinners who do repent. If OT sinners on thier way to death can repent before receiving life and getting a new heart and a new spirit, why is that impossible for NT unbelievers (i.e. slaves to sin) to repent before having God change their nature? Is there scripture saying that man has gotten worse?

Order of Events: Ephesians 1:13-14 agrees with the order of events I stated in the previous twp paragraphs. Hear the Gospel, believe the Gospel, and then God changes mans nature. God changing man's nature In Ephesians is termed "sealed with the Holy Spirit" - and in Ezekiel it is termed "receiving a new heart and a new spirit".

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.​

 

[Hammster]

God sets man free and saves man through the preaching of the Gospel. God gives faith to those who hear the word of God (Romans 10:17). The hearing of the Word of God is included in the preaching of the Gospel. And the Gospel is the power of God to those who believe (Romans 1:16). Slaves to sin can hear the Gospel per Ezekiel 18:30-32, explained in the next paragraph.

Does everyone hear the word of God?

 

[John Mullally]

Does everyone hear the word of God?

Not everyone hears the Gospel preached by man during their lifetime. It is possible they hear the Gospel from Jesus before they step into eternity - he does have the keys to hell and death (Revelations 1:17-18) and did preach in hell (1 Peter 3:18-20).

How about you answering your own questions.

 

[Hammster]

Not everyone hears the Gospel preached by man during their lifetime. It is possible they hear the Gospel from Jesus before they step into eternity - he does have the keys to hell and death (Revelations 1:17-18) and did preach in hell (1 Peter 3:18-20).

How about you answering your own questions.

An argument from silence. Very convincing.

 

[John Mullally]

An argument from silence. Very convincing.

If some never hear the Gospel, believers will be held accountable for not getting the message out (Ezekiel 3:18), and evil men will be held accountable for hindering the message (Acts 18:5-6).

Enough hiding behind a series of "Gotcha" questions, put your cards on the table, and make an argument. I don't expect that to happen for obvious reasons.

 

[Hammster]

If some never hear the Gospel, believers will be held accountable for not getting the message out (Ezekiel 3:18), and evil men will be held accountable for hindering the message (Acts 18:5-6).

Enough hiding behind a series of "Gotcha" questions, put your cards on the table, and make an argument. I don't expect that to happen for obvious reasons.

I guess the only reason you think these are “gotcha” questions is because I gotcha. I’ve never once complained when someone asks me about a statement I’ve made.

 

[Hammster]

I believe that faith comes by hearing. I also believe that not all who hear actually hear. I believe that some have ears to hear, and some don’t. That’s up to the Father for some have been given to Christ, and some haven’t. Those given to Christ will hear and believe. His sheep hear His voice and follow. Those who don’t follow don’t do so because they aren’t His sheep.

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
— 1 John 5:1

You believe because you are born of God, not the other way around.

 

[John Mullally]

I guess the only reason you think these are “gotcha” questions is because I gotcha. I’ve never once complained when someone asks me about a statement I’ve made.

Your "gotcha" questions are not taken directly from statements I made. I have written plenty and you don't quote me and ask what I meant by ....

Calvin and many of his followers believe that God is heartless to much of humanity. I say that because Calvin states that many are born with no opportunity to avert a future of eterenal torment. And Calvin asserts that even though he knows that John says that God is love (1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:16), Paul describes love (1 Corinthians 13), and Paul states that God desires all men be saved. This glaring flaw should have kept Calvin's doctrine from ever being accepted.

“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)​

​

Calvin and many of his followers also believe that everything is pre-determined by God, Although God decrees all man's sin, Calvin somehow does not view God as being even partially responsible for that sin. This view makes Calvinism logically consistent within itself because God's will is determined by whatever happens - this makes Calvinism largely unfalsifiable to its adherents.

"All events whatsoever are governed by the secret counsel of God" Therefore, "nothing happens but what [God] has knowingly and willingly decreed." This excludes "fortune and chance." Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, 1.16.2-3,8.​

​

The above shows that Calvin, and many of his followers, subscribe to a number of extremely unpopular ideas that others (non-Christian and non-Calvinist Christians alike) see as painting God as unjust. Calvinists on the other hand have mananged to swallow their unpopular ideas by viewing their opponents as using human reasoning. Calvinists take comfort in their internal logical consistency. But Calvinism's internal logical consistency, does not mean the Calvinism lines up with scripture.

 

[Hammster]

Calvin and many of his followers believe that God is heartless to much of humanity.

Not a single one. No point in reading further.

 

[John Mullally]

I believe that faith comes by hearing. I also believe that not all who hear actually hear. I believe that some have ears to hear, and some don’t. That’s up to the Father for some have been given to Christ, and some haven’t. Those given to Christ will hear and believe. His sheep hear His voice and follow. Those who don’t follow don’t do so because they aren’t His sheep.

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
— 1 John 5:1

You believe because you are born of God, not the other way around.

You believe some are born God's Sheep and remain His Sheep throughout their lifetime. I don't see that addressed in the Bible. Jesus says that His sheep hear His voice and follow. Per that definition, Paul was not His sheep until his conversion.

When does the "is born of God" in 1 John 5:1 occur? I say it is when the man believes. When do you say it occurs?

 

[John Mullally]

Not a single one. No point in reading further.

Calvin says "individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction." The certain death is hell. It is no consolation to pre-condemned that God get's Glory by it.

If God dooming many to hell before they are born (i.e. the doomed from the womb) as Calvin asserts is not heartliess, how do you term it?

 

[Hammster]

You believe some are born God's Sheep and remain His Sheep throughout their lifetime. I don't see that addressed in the Bible. Jesus says that His sheep hear His voice and follow. Per that definition, Paul was not His sheep until his conversion.

When does the "is born of God" in 1 John 5:1 occur? I say it is when the man believes. When do you say it occurs?

Paul heard His voice. And followed.

And according to the verse, whoever believe is born of God.

 

[Hammster]

Calvin says "individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction." The certain death is hell. That is heartless to those individuals God pre-destines to hell. And it is no consolation to them that God get's Glory by it.

It’s only heartless if they deserve salvation and it’s denied.

 

[John Mullally]

It’s only heartless if they deserve salvation and it’s denied.

Calvinists are the only ones who I know would say that God predestinating most of humanity to hell before birth is not heartless or worse.

Paul heard His voice. And followed.

And according to the verse, whoever believe is born of God.

Paul followed the voice of God after conversion. Before conversion, God was constantly speaking to him through his conscience - and Paul did not follow.

Romans 2:15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,​

When does the "is born of God" begin? Again I say it is when man believes.

 

[Hammster]

Calvinists are the only ones who I know would say that God predestinating most of humanity to hell before birth is not heartless or worse.

I think you mean that Calvinists are the only ones who recognize that we are actually sinners and none of us deserve any good thing from God.

Paul followed the voice of God after conversion. Before conversion, God was constantly speaking to him through his conscience - and Paul did not follow.

Yes, but he heard the voice. You know, faith comes by hearing. The sheep are given to the Shepherd. They hear. They follow.

Romans 2:15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,​

Right. The part you edited our says

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
— Romans 2:14

This means that even they can’t keep the law that they set for themselves. For instance, they think lying is bad, and don’t want anyone to to lie to them. Yet they are liars.

When does the "is born of God" begin? Again I say it is when man believes.

And you are wrong. As I’ve shown repeatedly.

 

[John Mullally]

Calvinists are the only ones who I know would say that God predestinating most of humanity to hell before birth is not heartless or worse.

I think you mean that Calvinists are the only ones who recognize that we are actually sinners and none of us deserve any good thing from God.

No, I meant what I said. Calvin said God predestines many to hell before they are born. There fate is sealed before they take their first breath - at least Satan and the fallen angels had a choice.

From the non-Calvinist perspective, God is always interested in the sinner's repentance (Luke 15:7). God wants everyone, though not unconditionally but conditionally through faith (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:36-41, Romans 10:9-10).

Yes, but he heard the voice. You know, faith comes by hearing. The sheep are given to the Shepherd. They hear. They follow.

From the Calvinist perspective, God chooses His own sheep, that is, He seeks them and finds them, and has chosen them from eternity past.

God indeed seeks the lost, but the objection is over the notion that God makes the choice for us. Instead, we must choose God over sin. In other words, if you were to ask God to give you an “Irresistible Grace” so that you would never sin again, ever—you won’t get it. Like Peter, you will fall, and get back up again, and you must choose God over sin, every day. It’s the struggle that everyone faces. Some people don’t want to let certain things go. Others fall back into the same sins over and over, but we must get back up again. We must choose. We have to make a choice. He won’t make it for us. Thankfully, because we have turned to God, He has given us a new nature that seeks to walk with Him and to do His will.

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
— Romans 2:14

This means that even they can’t keep the law that they set for themselves. For instance, they think lying is bad, and don’t want anyone to to lie to them. Yet they are liars.

I mentioned Romans 2:15 to show that God speaks to men through their conscience. If someone is violating their conscience, they are not following God. Before Paul's conversion: Paul was not following his conscience because he persecuted Christians, and thus he was not following God, and thus he was not behaving as a Sheep.

When does the "is born of God" begin? Again I say it is when man believes.

And you are wrong. As I’ve shown repeatedly.

I ask you when does the "is born of God" begin? I gave you an example of my answer in case you were curious. What is your answer?

 

[Mark Quayle]

No, I meant what I said. Calvin said God predestines many to hell before they are born. There fate is sealed before they take their first breath - at least Satan and the fallen angels had a choice.

You speak like a pagan. How you get "fate" and "fate is sealed" out of God creating is truly puzzling.

You continue with this narrative that if God does something, it is therefore automatic. You want the whole story under your skullcap. No, you want it under YOUR causation, and God stand aside.

It is not automatic. It is only SURE.

 

[John Mullally]

No, I meant what I said. Calvin said God predestines many to hell before they are born. Their fate is sealed before they take their first breath - at least Satan and the fallen angels had a choice.

You speak like a pagan. How you get "fate" and "fate is sealed" out of God creating is truly puzzling.

You continue with this narrative that if God does something, it is therefore automatic. You want the whole story under your skullcap. No, you want it under YOUR causation, and God stand aside.

It is not automatic. It is only SURE.

Are you saying there is any hope for the "individuals" Calvin is talking about (in the quote below)? Are you saying they can escape eternal torment? If the answers to those questions is No, then "their fate is sealed". This is from the Cambridge dictionary: seal someone's fate

“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)​

You continue with this narrative that if God does something, it is therefore automatic. You want the whole story under your skullcap. No, you want it under YOUR causation, and God stand aside.

I avoid explaining how God does what he does or how he causes things. There may be merit in understanding those topics - but I am not there. Here, I am strictly going over a quote from Calvin, not scripture. You are reading a lot into what I am writing - try to avoid that.