Is There Faith In Calvinist System?

[John Mullally]

If someone’s sins aren’t forgiven, how can God’s wrath be satisfied towards them?

I don't thiink in terms of whether or not "God's wrath is satisfied" towards individuals as I do not remember seeing anything like that phrase when reading my Bible. Perhaps that is a common term in your tradition. Correct me if you disagree: I assume by "God's wrath is satisfied", you mean that the individuals sins are forgiven. Thus, using that definition, from my perspective "Christ wrath is satisfied" applies to those individuals who qualify to receive Christ's atonement based upon the conditions laid out in John 3:14-15 and Mark 16:15-16 being met.

Where I stated "“The atonement satisfies God's wrath" I was not being precise as those who do not qualify to receive the atonement do not have forgiveness of sins and thus God's wrath is not satisfied towards them.

 

[Hammster]

I don't thiink in terms of whether or not "God's wrath is satisfied" towards individuals as I do not remember seeing anything like that phrase when reading my Bible. Perhaps that is a common term in your tradition. Correct me if you disagree: I assume by "God's wrath is satisfied", you mean that the individuals sins are forgiven. Thus, using that definition, from my perspective "Christ wrath is satisfied" applies to those individuals who qualify to receive Christ's atonement based upon the conditions laid out in John 3:14-15 and Mark 16:15-16 being met.

Where I stated "“The atonement satisfies God's wrath" I was not being precise as those who do not qualify to receive the atonement do not have forgiveness of sins and thus God's wrath is not satisfied towards them.

Then what do you do with something like 1 John 2:2?

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Propitiation is the satisfaction of God’s wrath. In your theology, that would be towards everyone in the world.

 

[John Mullally]

Then what do you do with something like 1 John 2:2?

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Propitiation is the satisfaction of God’s wrath. In your theology, that would be towards everyone in the world.

That is not a problem. As I have said many times, Christ's propitiation is received conditionally.

Christ’s death made provision for salvation but did not automatically result in anyone’s redemption being applied to them, or else Christ’s death would effectively save without faith. So, what Christ’s death accomplished is the finished work of the atonement’s provision for salvation, so that now anyone who believes in Jesus can receive His free gift of eternal life. In other words, the “It is finished” statement deals specifically with the provision of salvation being finished.

A great comparison is with John 3:14, as it relates to Numbers 21:6-9. The people sinned and God sent fiery serpents to punish them. So, at their request, Moses interceded on their behalf, resulting in the provision of the “serpent on a standard.” The provision for healing became finished. However, no one was automatically saved by the provision alone. Only when the people “looked” upon it, would healing occur, just as God said. So, too, with Calvary, no one is saved by the atonement itself. People must look to Jesus in faith, or else the atonement will not be applied to them.

 

[Hammster]

That is not a problem. As I have said many times, Christ's propitiation is received conditionally.

Christ’s death made provision for salvation but did not automatically result in anyone’s redemption being applied to them, or else Christ’s death would effectively save without faith. So, what Christ’s death accomplished is the finished work of the atonement’s provision for salvation, so that now anyone who believes in Jesus can receive His free gift of eternal life. In other words, the “It is finished” statement deals specifically with the provision of salvation being finished.

A great comparison is with John 3:14, as it relates to Numbers 21:6-9. The people sinned and God sent fiery serpents to punish them. So, at their request, Moses interceded on their behalf, resulting in the provision of the “serpent on a standard.” The provision for healing became finished. However, no one was automatically saved by the provision alone. Only when the people “looked” upon it, would healing occur, just as God said. So, too, with Calvary, no one is saved by the atonement itself. People must look to Jesus in faith, or else the atonement will not be applied to them.

For this to work, you have to change the language of 1 John. Instead of
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

it has to be

and He Himself is the provisional propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
— 1 John 2:2

 

[John Mullally]

For this to work, you have to change the language of 1 John. Instead of
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

it has to be

and He Himself is the provisional propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
— 1 John 2:2

No. 1 Timothy 4:10 is worded to indicate that Jesus is the savior of all men even non-believers. In the same way Jesus is propitiation for all men, even unbelievers.

1 Timothy 4:10 “For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.”​

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[bbbbbbb]

No. 1 Timothy 4:10 is worded to indicate that Jesus is the savior of all men even non-believers. In the same way Jesus is propitiation for all men, even unbelievers.

1 Timothy 4:10 “For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.”​

​

Out of curiosity, in what sense do you understand that believers are especially saved in contradistinction to unbelievers who are also saved?

 

[John Mullally]

Out of curiosity, in what sense do you understand that believers are especially saved in contradistinction to unbelievers who are also saved?

While the Bible speaks of Jesus having died for everyone (1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 2:6), and God’s desire for all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9), no apostle ever said that “the whole world will be redeemed” or “all men will be saved.” Of course, all men do have a Savior (1 Timothy 4:10), but that doesn’t mean that all men are saved. One must still believe in Jesus in order to receive His promise of eternal life. (John 3:16). That’s where the restriction comes in.

 

[bbbbbbb]

While the Bible speaks of Jesus having died for everyone (1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 2:6), and God’s desire for all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9), no apostle ever said that “the whole world will be redeemed” or “all men will be saved.” Of course, all men do have a Savior (1 Timothy 4:10), but that doesn’t mean that all men are saved. One must still believe in Jesus in order to receive His promise of eternal life. (John 3:16). That’s where the restriction comes in.

Thanks! So, is Jesus not the savior of all mankind in actuality, but only of believers?

 

[John Mullally]

Thanks! So, is Jesus not the savior of all mankind in actuality, but only of believers?

1 Timothy 4:10 says He is the Savior of all men, even unbelievers who based upon other scriptures are not saved. If that bothers you, ask God about it.

 

[Hammster]

No. 1 Timothy 4:10 is worded to indicate that Jesus is the savior of all men even non-believers. In the same way Jesus is propitiation for all men, even unbelievers.

1 Timothy 4:10 “For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.”​

​

You didn’t address my point which was directly related to your post.

 

[Hammster]

1 Timothy 4:10 says He is the Savior of all men, even unbelievers who based upon other scriptures are not saved. If that bothers you, ask God about it.

So unbelievers are saved. Interesting.

 

[bbbbbbb]

While the Bible speaks of Jesus having died for everyone (1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 2:6), and God’s desire for all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9), no apostle ever said that “the whole world will be redeemed” or “all men will be saved.” Of course, all men do have a Savior (1 Timothy 4:10), but that doesn’t mean that all men are saved. One must still believe in Jesus in order to receive His promise of eternal life. (John 3:16). That’s where the restriction comes in.

Thanks! So, is Jesus not the savior of all mankind in actuality, but only of believers?

1 Timothy 4:10 says He is the Savior of all men, even unbelievers who based upon other scriptures are not saved. If that bothers you, ask God about it.

It doesn't bother me in the least. God is God of all creation and Lord of eternity. One of the titles of Jesus Christ is Savior, thus making Savior of all creation, not just humanity.

As Lord, God is fully capable of doing anything. That does not mean that He chooses to do everything possible. He acts according to His will. Likewise, as we both agree, as Savior, Jesus Christ is fully capable of saving every individual on earth. The fact is that He doesn't actually save the vast majority of mankind, but chooses to leave them in their sin and unbelief.

 

[John Mullally]

You didn’t address my point which was directly related to your post.

I addressed it from scripture showing my view is consistent from scripture. Since Paul calls Christ Savior of all men (believers and unbelievrs) in 1 Timothy 4:10, it is valid for John to say that Christ is the propitiation for the whole world (believers and unbelievers) in 1 John 2:2. My understanding of 1 John 2:2 is correct as written - its not like I need to assume your "provisionally" caveat.

So unbelievers are saved. Interesting.

The fact that Paul calls Christ the Savior of all men (even unbelievers) indicates that Christ provides salvation for all men, which does not mean unbelievers are saved. Read Post 369 for more information. Stop deliberately misunderstanding what I say and putting words in my mouth.

 

[John Mullally]

As Lord, God is fully capable of doing anything. That does not mean that He chooses to do everything possible. He acts according to His will. Likewise, as we both agree, as Savior, Jesus Christ is fully capable of saving every individual on earth. The fact is that He doesn't actually save the vast majority of mankind, but chooses to leave them in their sin and unbelief.

Only about 10% of Christians are Calvinist. Calvinists, like you, believe that God chooses who He saves (as the elect are predestined).

Non-Calvinist Protestants believe that God provides salvation to all, but only believers will be saved. Non-Calvinists Protestants. like me, view salvation as being received by men by faith. Christ provides the atonement for all men and men optionally receive it by faith (AKA believing on Him), 1 Timothy 4:10 lines up with my view. Christ could never be viewed as Savior of unbelievers under Calvinism and yet we see Paul doing that.

 

[Hammster]

I addressed it from scripture showing my view is consistent from scripture. Since Paul calls Christ Savior of the entire world (believers and unbelievrs) in 1 Timothy 4:10, it is valid for John to say that Christ is the propitiation for the whole world (believers and unbelievers).


The fact that Paul calls Christ the Savior of all men (even unbelievers) indicates that Christ provides salvation for all men, which does not mean unbelievers are saved. Read Post 369 for more information. Stop deliberately misunderstanding what I say and putting words in my mouth.

Actually, it doesn’t prove that. A Savior who doesn’t actually save isn’t a savior at all.

 

[Hammster]

Non-Calvinist Protestants believe that God provides salvation to all, but only believers will be saved.

You’ve said yourself that Jesus saves the whole world.

 

[John Mullally]

You’ve said yourself that Jesus saves the whole world.

There is a difference between Jesus being the Savior of all men (stated in 1 Timothy 4:10) and Jesus saving all men. I never said Jesus saves all men. Again read post 369 for more clarification.

Actually, it doesn’t prove that. A Savior who doesn’t actually save isn’t a savior at all.

Jesus saves. 1 Timothy 4:10 indicates that Jesus is the Savior of all men (believer and unbeliever). That does not mean there are no terms for receiving salvation. When an unbeliever repents, Jesus saves him and the angels rejoice (Luke 15:10).

A mechanic can advertise his services and yet he does not fix my car. Is he not a mechanic? Does he have to stipulate in his advertisement that he only services those who come to him and meet his terms of service?

 

[Hammster]

There is a difference between Jesus being the Savior of the the whole world (stated in 1 Timothy 4:10) and Jesus saving the whole world. I never said Jesus saves the whole world. Again read post 369 for more clarification.

Jesus saves. 1 Timothy 4:10 indicates that Jesus is the Savior of all men (believer and unbeliever). That does not mean there are no terms for receiving salvation. When an unbeliever repents, Jesus saves him and the angels rejoice (Luke 15:10).

A mechanic can advertise his services and yet he does not fixed my car. Is he not a mechanic? Does he have to stipulate in his advertisement that he only services those who come to him and meet his terms of service?

If he advertises that he’s the mechanic for the whole world, and doesn’t fix every car, then he’s lying.

 

[John Mullally]

If he advertises that he’s the mechanic for the whole world, and doesn’t fix every car, then he’s lying.

If you don't bring your cars into one of his shops you will not get repairs.

You don't accept my explanation of 1 Timothy 4:10. How about switching roles: You explain the meaning of 1 Timothy 4:10 and I do the "cross-examination" the way you do by putting words in your mouth just like you do to me?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Only about 10% of Christians are Calvinist. Calvinists, like you, believe that God chooses who He saves (as the elect are predestined).

Non-Calvinist Protestants believe that God provides salvation to all, but only believers will be saved. Non-Calvinists Protestants. like me, view salvation as being received by men by faith. Christ provides the atonement for all men and men optionally receive it by faith (AKA believing on Him), 1 Timothy 4:10 lines up with my view. Christ could never be viewed as Savior of unbelievers under Calvinism and yet we see Paul doing that.

I think that you are overly high in your estimation of the percentage of Calvinist Christians. The vast majority of acknowledged Christians include those of the RCC and EOC, both of which thoroughly reject monergism, although embracing other aspects of Calvinist theology. Thus, probably less than 1% of professing Christians are self-identified Calvinists and less than 1% are self-identified Arminians. Whether or not you identify as Arminian is incidental to this discussion. The discussion is clearly focused on the issue of monergism versus synergism. You, along with the RCC and the EOC, hold to a synergistic soteriology.

The fact is that Christ, according to synergists, is not the effective agent in the salvation of anyone. Christ has merely provided the means of salvation and is now a passive observer as people actively serve as the effective agents of their personal salvation. Monergists, by contrast, believe that Christ is the effective agent in the salvation of (especially) believers, calling His sheep into his fold where none can snatch them from His almighty hand.