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Is there anything wrong with an intellectual faith?

Biblicist

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I guess that would be a negative with regard to where I asked you if you knew the difference between a Charismatic and a Pentecostal; you should also take note of how these two words should be spelt.

I did check out the link you provided, and beside the first one that was produced by a Roman Catholic Charismatic and with the second one that referred to John MacArthur as a false prophet (most interesting indeed!), a quick check of the other links gave me the impression that most were produced by possibly liberals, humanists and atheists - at least on face value.
 
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Biblicist

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Or to quote Wesley himself from...........
http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_wesley/plain_account/

It is there we read.......

"Perhaps the general prejudice against Christian perfection may chiefly arise from a misapprehension of the nature of it. We willingly allow, and continually declare, there is no such perfection in this life, as implies either a dispensation from doing good, and attending all the ordinances of God, or a freedom from ignorance, mistake, temptation, and a thousand infirmities necessarily connected with flesh and blood."


"We Secondly believe, that there is no such perfection in this life, as implies an entire deliverance, either from ignorance, or mistake, in things not essential to salvation, or from manifold temptations, or from numberless infirmities, wherewith the corruptible body more or less presses down the soul. We cannot find any ground in Scripture to suppose, that any inhabitant of a house of clay is wholly exempt either from bodily infirmities, or from ignorance of many things; or to imagine any is incapable of mistake, or falling into divers temptations."

Seems the more ignorant a person is to his own sin, the more he can nonetheless be reckoned to have attained to a state of sinless perfection.
The link you provided does not work.

Even though I struggle to understand Wesley's perspective on perfection, which on my part has been with a lack of effort to read the primary sources. From what you have provided, it seems that Wesley has carefully limited his use of perfection, where perfection is not perfect perfection but limited perfection, which in itself can be a bit confusing.
 
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Major1

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The link you provided does not work.

Even though I struggle to understand Wesley's perspective on perfection, which on my part has been with a lack of effort to read the primary sources. From what you have provided, it seems that Wesley has carefully limited his use of perfection, where perfection is not perfect perfection but limited perfection, which in itself can be a bit confusing.

My apologies. I copied and pasted it directly from the site.
 
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Major1

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I guess that would be a negative with regard to where I asked you if you knew the difference between a Charismatic and a Pentecostal; you should also take note of how these two words should be spelt.

I did check out the link you provided, and beside the first one that was produced by a Roman Catholic Charismatic and with the second one that referred to John MacArthur as a false prophet (most interesting indeed!), a quick check of the other links gave me the impression that most were produced by possibly liberals, humanists and atheists - at least on face value.

So what you are doing then is NOT to reject the actual evidence as presented but to attack and reject the ones who simply recorded the event.

What is that called?
 
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ToBeLoved

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Hebrews 11:1: ...........
“Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.”

Simply put, the biblical definition of faith is “trusting in something you cannot explicitly prove.”

This definition of faith contains two aspects:
1). intellectual assent
2). and trust.

Intellectual assent is believing something to be true.
Trust is actually relying on the fact that the something is true.

A chair is often used to help illustrate this. Intellectual assent is recognizing that a chair is a chair and agreeing that it is designed to support a person who sits on it.
Trust is actually sitting in the chair.
What is the definition of faith?
Pretty good explaination. I like the chair thing
 
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HatGuy

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Or to quote Wesley himself from...........
http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_wesley/plain_account/

It is there we read.......

"Perhaps the general prejudice against Christian perfection may chiefly arise from a misapprehension of the nature of it. We willingly allow, and continually declare, there is no such perfection in this life, as implies either a dispensation from doing good, and attending all the ordinances of God, or a freedom from ignorance, mistake, temptation, and a thousand infirmities necessarily connected with flesh and blood."


"We Secondly believe, that there is no such perfection in this life, as implies an entire deliverance, either from ignorance, or mistake, in things not essential to salvation, or from manifold temptations, or from numberless infirmities, wherewith the corruptible body more or less presses down the soul. We cannot find any ground in Scripture to suppose, that any inhabitant of a house of clay is wholly exempt either from bodily infirmities, or from ignorance of many things; or to imagine any is incapable of mistake, or falling into divers temptations."

Seems the more ignorant a person is to his own sin, the more he can nonetheless be reckoned to have attained to a state of sinless perfection.
You're reading that too quickly.

He plainly states that those who are "perfected" are not incapable of falling into "divers temptations."

Wesley's view hinges on the heart being oriented towards God alone. This is why he seemed to prefer the phrase, "perfect love". "Perfection" is not static in his view, but something you come into and grow even more in. He uses the word in its Biblical sense (which is more akin to "maturing"). You are thinking of perfection in a more limited, static sense.

Philosophically speaking, Perfection is unlimited (as God is infinite) so you can never think of it statically.

Wesley believed that God would do such a work as to make your heart undivided in its love for God, where you hate sin utterly, even if you fall into it. It is love without sin, basically.

Your previously quoted article assumes too much. Finney is completely different to Wesley. Many later holiness types took the idea to the wrong conclusion.
 
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RDKirk

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No, but what is your hope in understanding everything? What is the end goal?

Always the right question. Of course, the end goal should be Jesus' end goal.

This is why testimonies are so powerful, they bring life to the Word in a way that others can relate and identify with.Testimonies don't require understanding everything, but with understanding of who God is and the fruitfulness of the relationship with Him, we are changed. Some people go far left and focus on the understanding, some people go far right and become sensationalistic. Testimonies paints the big picture, without needing to go from Genesis to Revelation, or to go through rituals to experience His presence.In testimonies our knowledge and understanding becomes wisdom, and the presence of the Holy Spirit is more than a feeling of being filled, but identifying Him as a present help and our guide.

How can one honestly endorse a product he does not use?

Evangelism: Telling others what Jesus has done for them.

Witnessing: Telling others what Jesus has done for you.

Not every Christian is an evangelist, but every Christian is obligated to testify to what Jesus has done for him. The power of testimony must not be underestimated.

When Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman at the well, Jesus evangelized...then the woman ran out to witness. She didn't know much gospel theology, she wasn't even sure Jesus was the Christ, she only knew what Jesus had done for her...but that brought the entire town to hear Jesus.

The same with the blind man given his sight. When questioned on Jesus' theology, all he could say was, "I don't know about all that--you have to ask Him--but once I was blind and now I see."
 
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RDKirk

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To my mind the most exemplary in the faith have a great intellect in their understanding of it. Perhaps the best example is none other than Paul himself who communicated to us a complex series of arguments through his epistles that we are still debating two thousand years later. Jesus' parables and teachings are not unreflective remarks but are also carefully constructed and show a great (divinely revealed) teaching behind them.

Some of the great Christian intellectuals also exhibited the greatest faith. Saint John Damascus, Saint Augustine, Origen, Thomas Aquinas, C.S Lewis and many more.

OTOH, Peter was rather a dunce when he wasn't speaking through the Holy Spirit.

And I suspect the number of martyrs with little theological scholarship is significantly greater than the number of martyrs who were great scholars...particularly over the last 100 years. So we can't necessarily say of intellectuals "greatest faith."
 
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RDKirk

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My degree is in Philosophy -
As an atheist I thought the ultimate answers were to be found there...
I was wrong...

I had a philosophy professor like that.

He was the head of the department and taught a particular course I wanted, but when I saw I was the only person who applied for it, I figured it would be cancelled. So I went to him to see if I could yet take it by directed independent study.

He said, "No, it must be done by lecture."

I said, "Well, I was the only one who signed up, so I guess I can't take it."

He said, "No, I'll teach it."

For the first couple of sessions, we met in a classroom, but that seemed dumb, so he suggested meeting in his office.

In that private environment, we discovered we were both Christians. In his case, he had been born a Jew, but found that wanting. In his career in philosophy he had become an atheist...and eventually found that wanting. He searched all philosophies, finding them all wanting. Until he delved into Christianity--something he'd avoided earlier because "I thought I already knew about Christianity" (which is a problem in our post-Christian society different from the problem Paul faced).

In Christianity he found resolution...and the direction of that course changed substantially from what was in the catalog. I probably absorbed more from that course than from any other.
 
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salt-n-light

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Always the right question. Of course, the end goal should be Jesus' end goal.



How can one honestly endorse a product he does not use?

Evangelism: Telling others what Jesus has done for them.

Witnessing: Telling others what Jesus has done for you.

Not every Christian is an evangelist, but every Christian is obligated to testify to what Jesus has done for him. The power of testimony must not be underestimated.

When Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman at the well, Jesus evangelized...then the woman ran out to witness. She didn't know much gospel theology, she wasn't even sure Jesus was the Christ, she only knew what Jesus had done for her...but that brought the entire town to hear Jesus.

The same with the blind man given his sight. When questioned on Jesus' theology, all he could say was, "I don't know about all that--you have to ask Him--but once I was blind and now I see."

You know sometimes I get quoted and it comes back and I read in disbelief that I was the one who said that , lol! I have to step back and think that it was not me saying all this, must be The Holy Spirit.

God bless you :)
 
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ToBeLoved

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OTOH, Peter was rather a dunce when he wasn't speaking through the Holy Spirit.

And I suspect the number of martyrs with little theological scholarship is significantly greater than the number of martyrs who were great scholars...particularly over the last 100 years. So we can't necessarily say of intellectuals "greatest faith."
True. Jesus picked a handful of uneducated fishermen for the twelve.

Jesus did not stack His hand, it could be seen as HE intentionally picked the uneducated of society to confound the wise as the scripture states.
 
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Major1

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True. Jesus picked a handful of uneducated fishermen for the twelve.

Jesus did not stack His hand, it could be seen as HE intentionally picked the uneducated of society to confound the wise as the scripture states.

Not to argue the point but we know that Matthew was a tax collector so he would have had to be fluent in several languages and numbers and writing I would think.

Luke was a doctor.

All of them, except the Alpheus twins, were graduates of the synagogue schools, having been thoroughly trained in the Hebrew scriptures and in much of the current knowledge of that day.

Seven were graduates of the Capernaum synagogue schools, and there were no better Jewish schools in all Galilee.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Not to argue the point but we know that Matthew was a tax collector so he would have had to be fluent in several languages and numbers and writing I would think.

Luke was a doctor.

All of them, except the Alpheus twins, were graduates of the synagogue schools, having been thoroughly trained in the Hebrew scriptures and in much of the current knowledge of that day.

Seven were graduates of the Capernaum synagogue schools, and there were no better Jewish schools in all Galilee.
Were Matthew and Luke the initial 12 Disciples Jesus chose?

You seem to be talking about the gospel authors,, right?
 
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faroukfarouk

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You know sometimes I get quoted and it comes back and I read in disbelief that I was the one who said that , lol! I have to step back and think that it was not me saying all this, must be The Holy Spirit.

God bless you :)
It all boils down to 'giv(ing) a reason for the hope that is in you' (1 Peter 3.15).
 
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Major1

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Were Matthew and Luke the initial 12 Disciples Jesus chose?

You seem to be talking about the gospel authors,, right?

Good question.

In the gospel of Luke and Mathhew, it seems that Peter and Andrew were the first two.

In Johns gospel 1:38-40 ONE is un-named (Vs. 40) and most think that is John along with Andrew. and then Peter (vs. 41).

Actually I was referring to the 12.
 
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FreeinChrist

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MOD HAT

256064_6429f71273587ebdde5b1038d8c1ccf4.jpg


A clean up was done because of flaming done by a few. Stop it. If you feel flamed, Do NOT flame back.

 
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ToBeLoved

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Good question.

In the gospel of Luke and Mathhew, it seems that Peter and Andrew were the first two.

In Johns gospel 1:38-40 ONE is un-named (Vs. 40) and most think that is John along with Andrew. and then Peter (vs. 41).

Actually I was referring to the 12.
So Matthew and Luke were not the 12 tho.

So I’m confused.
 
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Major1

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So Matthew and Luke were not the 12 tho.

So I’m confused.

Don't be! It may seem that way but it isn't.

Some people in years past have used this situation to try and prove that he Bible has contradictions and errors but when the whole thing is studied it becomes clear.

What happened is that John and Matt. did not include every single detail and instead focused or a better word might be "summarized" their wrings.

Neither John or Matthew gave a complete list of everything Jesus did or WHEN He did it. They did not in other words give specifics.

John 20:30-31.....
"Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."

John 21:24-25..........
"This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true. Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."

In light of John’s own statements we shouldn’t expect that he (or even any other writer for that matter) is giving us an exhaustive record of everything that occurred, and especially the time and order they happened but a summary of them.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Don't be! It may seem that way but it isn't.

Some people in years past have used this situation to try and prove that he Bible has contradictions and errors but when the whole thing is studied it becomes clear.

What happened is that John and Matt. did not include every single detail and instead focused or a better word might be "summarized" their wrings.

Neither John or Matthew gave a complete list of everything Jesus did or WHEN He did it. They did not in other words give specifics.

John 20:30-31.....
"Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."

John 21:24-25..........
"This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true. Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."

In light of John’s own statements we shouldn’t expect that he (or even any other writer for that matter) is giving us an exhaustive record of everything that occurred, and especially the time and order they happened but a summary of them.
I think we are passed our discussion.

I mentioned the twelve. You said what about Matthew and Luke. I said they were not part of the twelve.

Now you are onto the gospels and my point is still the initial 12 and the people Jesus chose.

So I am not confused. We just seem to have moved away from the original intention of the point I was making.

I don’t believe the Bible has errors so you are beating the wrong drum here.

Anyways, ready to move on. Just stating your point is invalid in the original context because neither Matthew or Luke were the twelve Christ chose.
 
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paul becke

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Not to argue the point but we know that Matthew was a tax collector so he would have had to be fluent in several languages and numbers and writing I would think.

Luke was a doctor.

All of them, except the Alpheus twins, were graduates of the synagogue schools, having been thoroughly trained in the Hebrew scriptures and in much of the current knowledge of that day.

Seven were graduates of the Capernaum synagogue schools, and there were no better Jewish schools in all Galilee.

And we know what Jesus thought of the highly educated scribes and Pharisees poring over the scriptures, ultimately, it seems to their condemnation. So, if most of Jesus' Apostles were highly educated, it will not have been for their worldly intellect that Jesus chose them.

The deepest truths, even in physics, are paradoxical in nature, so the worldly intellect, which cannot handle paradoxes/mysteries, can only accept them, and use them as staging-posts from which to leap to further discoveries. Not acceptable by atheists in spiritual matters, nor embraced by them generally. A matter of the will, being within the province of the soul's faculties of memory, will and understanding.

We shall be judged, after all, not on our head, but on our heart : not on our worldly, academic wisdom, but on our spiritual wisdom, the choices of our heart. Indeed, it was the Anawim Jesus was chiefly adressing in his Sermon on the Mount and Beatitudes.

Note the literal interpretation given by some of Jesus' followers, when he told them that they would have to eat his flesh and drink his blood, and how, when they walked away muttering about it being intolerable language, Jesus made no attempt to explain it to them. Indeed, he would have known in advance how they would respond. His Anawim followers must have said to themselves, 'Well, that sounds very strange. I don't understand what he means. But we've seen him and heard enough from him already, to want to keep believing in him and keep following him, as he'll surely make it clearer, some time.'

Docility actually means 'teachability', and that is what they possessed in their humility (knowing our limitations), that key Christian virtue that most of the religious leaders of the day did not possess.

Faith and knowledge merge with each other, forming a continuum or a 'confusion of concepts'. When I enter my living-room of an evening, I switch on the light. I don't know for sure if it will come on, but I have faith that it is highly likely to do so. How often does the bulb blow ? So, that is an instance of secular faith.

However, our Christian faith is similar. We have many reasons to believe in Christ, according to our lights (actually with ever greater certainty as new scientific discoveries are very confirmatory, to say the least), because we choose to, our hearts tell us to. But why would God inspire us to believe, and not make ourselves and the world to match those teachings and beliefs ?

So, interaction occurs between our Christian faith-knowledge and our corresponding secular faith-knowledge, and we form a picture of 'how the land lies', the spiritual landscape, and act in our lives on earth with our world-view combining the two.

It is why only in Christendom was empirical science taken up as an ongoing project, while other cultures, such as that of China would make a serious discovery (such as printing) centuries before any other country, and then 'go back to sleep' in terms of engaging in further investigation of the natural world.

Similarly, atheists act according to their generally, materialist world-view, bizarrely find confirmation of its soundness in their own eyes. Almost invariably, however, atheism is driven by the desire not to be hampered by conscience in relation to the person's sexual behaviour. Aldous Huxley, who wrote, Brave New World and the fascinating treatise on comparative religion, called The Perennial Philosophy, admitted that that was what was behind the behaviour of his set in their younger days. He had been a great fan of D H Lawrence. Eventually, he became a Vedantist, a peculiarly-pure form of Hinduism, when compared with the way it has developed.

At the end of the day, however, we know, thanks to Jesus' own teaching, that only one thing is necessary ; which will however be accompanied by wisdom, which can even be expressed via the visitation of the Holy Spirit, subliminally, in a severely brain-damaged person. I witnessed such a lad (with his mother) standing up in his pew during the Mass, when the priest raised the Sacre Host, and making curious, but clearly excited noises - evidently seeing something (or, rather someone) beyond the scope of our vision.

Until recently, God made sure to leave some 'wriggle-room' for atheists to reject him, since while he was never too proud to use fear to prompt us, yet he certainly would not want merely cynical souls who would only love him for his overwhelming power. Despite there arguably being no 'wriggle-room' left, being who they are, the die-hards will still call up down and down up, and refuse to believe the clear Christian implications of modern science.
 
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