Is there anything that you admire about Muslims?

[Hazelelponi]

Please quote my words where I called Muslims Christians.

What?

I was only responding to the exact portion of the post I quoted in that portion of my response and was quite careful to be clear.

I was speaking exclusively in the first portion of my post about cultural Christians who know nothing about the Christian faith and live without any thought of God.

^^^ those are the people I told you not to call Christians. Not one word about Muslims in that particular portion of my post.

 

[tonychanyt]

What?

I was only responding to the exact portion of the post I quoted in that portion of my response and was quite careful to be clear.

I was speaking exclusively in the first portion of my post about cultural Christians who know nothing about the Christian faith and live without any thought of God.

^^^ those are the people I told you not to call Christians. Not one word about Muslims in that particular portion of my post.

Define Christian.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Its honest

What if someone said: The Jews worship a false god.

Is this true or false?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

You are drawing a long bow there...

The Marcionists deny the OT among other things - what leads you to believe I would do such a thing ?

I don't think you are going to deny the OT. But how different is it, really, to say "Muslims worship a different god than Christians" and "Jews worship a different god than Christians".

I don't see any difference in the two statements. Both Jews and Muslims say they worship the God of Abraham. Both Jews and Muslims believe in the absolute unity of God in such a way as to reject any notion of Trinity. Fundamentally, the Jewish and Muslim views of God are more aligned with one another than either is with the orthodox Christian view of God.

And I think that the moment one would say that Jews worship a different god (and I don't see how one can say Muslims worship a different god without saying the same thing about Jews) one is approaching that error of Marcion in which he insisted that the Jewish God and the Christian God were fundamentally two different gods.

That's why I didn't call it Marcionism, but said it gets dangerously close to it. It is Maronite-adjacent.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hazelelponi]

Define Christian.

I was doing exactly that in a very short and concise manner relevant to the words I quoted - or certainly attempting to.

Would you prefer to listen to Pastor Paul Washer's 2 hour sermon entitled "10 indictments Against the Modern Church in America" and then have a discussion about why I think those in Toronto are likely to deal with the same maladies as those living in the US?

I can do concise and to the point or long and educational - the choice is yours, I leave the ball in your court.

Here's the 2 hour long sermon:

I find that there are some issues that the modern church in the US (and the west in general) has, that affect even myself though I was not Christian in my youth because these indictments are also cultural ideas and being born and raised in the US your going to be affected by them.

This is why I find the sermon quite relevant to what you said. If you don't want to listen to the sermon and prefer the book format this sermon is also available for sale. I just always prefer to offer a free option because not everyone has the same financial ability.

I close in reiterating - concise and to the point or lengthy and educational, the choice is yours. Most people online prefer short and concise which is why I initially responded in that manner.

I may have been too concise and not been as clear, and for that I certainly apologize, I do make a conscious effort to be very clear so anyone can understand me. Most the time it's one of my more positive attributes, Praise God for the Gifts He freely gives His children! But I may be having an off day.

 

[seeking.IAM]

A 2hr. sermon? Goodness, how could one hope to beat the Episcopalians to the restaurant after church?

 

[tonychanyt]

I was quite clear I'm certain, when I spoke the first time as I was doing exactly that in a very short and concise manner relevant to the words quoted.

At this point, I am just trying to understand what you mean by "Christian". Please focus on this question.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I don't think you are going to deny the OT. But how different is it, really, to say "Muslims worship a different god than Christians" and "Jews worship a different god than Christians".

I don't see any difference in the two statements. Both Jews and Muslims say they worship the God of Abraham. Both Jews and Muslims believe in the absolute unity of God in such a way as to reject any notion of Trinity. Fundamentally, the Jewish and Muslim views of God are more aligned with one another than either is with the orthodox Christian view of God.

And I think that the moment one would say that Jews worship a different god (and I don't see how one can say Muslims worship a different god without saying the same thing about Jews) one is approaching that error of Marcion in which he insisted that the Jewish God and the Christian God were fundamentally two different gods.

That's why I didn't call it Marcionism, but said it gets dangerously close to it. It is Maronite-adjacent.

-CryptoLutheran

Hello again brother!

Coming out of Islam and into Christianity I had issues because it is as if there are two opposing god's . But allow me to share with you, and everyone here, something I learned.

First: let's deal with God's Name. God is recognized by Name, and known by His Name's. His Name's are also His attributes.

You can't cherry pick the parts of God you like and throw away the parts you don't. If you do that you have a worthless idol of your own creation that you're prostrating to, not a God because you are correct there's only One.

God's Name, the Name He calls Himself isn't the God of Abraham - drum roll please - it's the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. 3 words, not one. Very specific.

A Muslim doesn't worship that God, and they don't claim to. Therefore it's a lie to say we worship the same God and it's a damnable lie at that because it can potentially lead people straight to hell, and does every day.

Ephesians 4:5-6 states:

There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

As for the rest:

Revelation 3:9 is applicable, for BOTH the Jews and the Christians who are so in name only. For ethnic Jews many dropped off of worshipping God at the New Covenant in Christ (of course many became Apostles etc in the Church), for some (not all) "Christians", the Christians in name only, they dropped off worshipping God when they became hedonist and left God aside. In doing so they also effectually created their own "god" aka worship false idols.

God has something to say about the lot of them in judgement and none of it is good, but most importantly, none of them worship the same God as His precious Church. They worship idols.

God bless you

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hello again brother!

Coming out of Islam and into Christianity I had issues because it is as if there are two opposing god's . But allow me to share with you, and everyone here, something I learned.

First: let's deal with God's Name. God is recognized by Name, and known by His Name's. His Name's are also His attributes.

You can't cherry pick the parts of God you like and throw away the parts you don't. If you do that you have a worthless idol of your own creation that you're prostrating to, not God.

God's Name, the Name He calls Himself isn't the God of Abraham - drum roll please - it's the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. 3 words, not one. Very specific.

A Muslim doesn't worship that God, and they don't claim to. Therefore it's a lie to say we worship the same God and it's a damnable lie at that because it can potentially lead people straight to hell.

Ephesians 4:5-6 states:

There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

As for the rest:

Revelation 3:9 is applicable, for BOTH the Jews and the Christians who are so in name only. For ethnic Jews many dropped off of worshipping God at the New Covenant in Christ (of course many became Apostles etc in the Church), for some (not all) "Christians", the Christians in name only, they dropped off worshipping God when they became hedonist and left God aside, they also created their own "god" aka worship false idols.

God has something to say about the lot of them in judgement and none of it is good, but most importantly, none of them worship the same God as His precious Church.

God bless you

I suspect that if you took a group of Christians and put them in a room, and given enough time and discussion, we'd learn that all of those Christians have different ideas about God.

So where do we draw the line between "different god" and "different ideas about the same God".

I would also posit this: Idolatry is not merely the worship of false gods; idolatry also consists in false worship of the true God. When Moses ascended the mountain and the people came to Aaron begging Aaron to make an idol, gold was melted down and turned into a golden calf, and the people worshiped it as the god that delivered them out from Egypt.

Was the golden calf a different god, or an idol and the false worship of God?

When we, as Christians, project our own ideas onto God, are we worshiping a different god, or are we offering false worship to God?

Because I'm sure that if you and I were to continue talking about God, eventually we'd find some pretty different ideas each of us has about God. Would that make one of us, or even both of us, worshiping an entirely different god? Or simply that our ideas about God are different, and one or both of us while talking about the one, actual, objectively Real God are wrong about Him?

I view it as the latter. I've met a lot of Christians who I think have very wrong ideas about God. I've even gone so far as to say that I think there is a level of idolatry to that. I don't always recognize the God I hear talked about by some fellow Christians--it's not the God that I see in Scripture, or who I have known in my life of faith and and confession in the Creeds. But I don't think that there is a different god being worshiped or believed in--it's that I think it is a different view of God, which I very much disagree with and believe to be very wrong. But, it's still God.

I think Muslims have very wrong ideas about God. I do not recognize God as Muslims often talk about Him. Because I know God through Jesus Christ, and as confessed in the Christian Church, the God who loves me and all other sinners and demonstrates that love by graciously sending Jesus Christ, and in Jesus Christ meeting us in the depths of our despair and unworthiness to rescue, save, restore, and heal us.

I don't recognize God except as the God who reveals Himself in Jesus Christ, as the God and Father of Jesus Christ. I confess, without reservation, "I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth." I confess that Jesus Christ is "the only Son of God" "begotten of the Father before all ages" "begotten, not made" "of the same Being with the Father". I confess of the Holy Spirit that He is, "Lord and Life-giver" who "proceeds from the Father [and the Son]" and who is "with the Father and the Son worshiped and glorified". I therefore "worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the Persons nor dividing the Essence" One God, Holy Trinity.

That's the God I worship, that is the God I believe in and confess.

I also believe that this one God loves every single person who has ever lived, and who desires that all be saved without exception; and that Christ died for all, no exceptions. That by the death of Jesus Christ God has made satisfaction for all sinners of all times, so that all who, by the grace of God, believe in Christ are saved.

I also believe that this one God established His one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. Instituted the Sacrament of Holy Baptism for the forgiveness of sins, instituted the Eucharist wherein we receive the literal flesh and blood of Jesus Christ.

I believe that this one God has predestined us in Christ from before the foundation of the world that we should be heirs according to the promise, that we are saved purely by the grace of God, through faith; and that we are freely justified--declared and rendered just before God--on Christ's account alone by the imputation of His righteousness.

I believe that this one God who made all things will, in the end, make all things new. For even as Christ has been raised from the dead, so too will God raise from the dead all who believe in Him. And out of this broken, old, dying world God will create new heavens and new earth. That Christ shall come again, to judge the living and the dead, and bring with Him kingdom without end.

Not every Christian I talk to believes everything I believe about God. Yet, this is the God I believe in.

Some Christians believe in a God who will rapture Christians out of the earth before a period of seven years of tribulation. I don't.
Some Christians believe in a God who saves people based on how righteous their deeds are. I don't.
Some Christians believe that God hates gay people. I don't.
Some Christians believe that God only sent Jesus to die for the elect. I don't.

Different God(s)? Or different beliefs about the one true God?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Plenipotent]

I must admit that my knowledge of Muslims is limited, but in my current work setting, I interact with several J1's ( students who come from outside of the USA ), and some of them have shared that they are Muslim. Today, we engaged in a casual conversation about our fears. One individual mentioned a fear of heights, another spoke of spiders, yet one person's reply deeply touched me. They said, "I have no fear. The only thing I fear is God. As long as I stand behind him, I have nothing else to fear."

I found this response to be profoundly admirable. In contrast, my own response was 'lava'.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So they all will go to hell?

Believe me He is working among them and drawing many out of darkness.

Often directly through visions and dreams.

Not one will be lost who He has chosen before the foundation of the world.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Some Christians believe in a God who will rapture Christians out of the earth before a period of seven years of tribulation. I don't.
Some Christians believe in a God who saves people based on how righteous their deeds are. I don't.
Some Christians believe that God hates gay people. I don't.
Some Christians believe that God only sent Jesus to die for the elect. I don't.

Different God(s)? Or different beliefs about the one true God?

Christians don't pilgrimage to Mecca to kiss the black stone.

Different god...

 

[Carl Emerson]

If you want to understand the character of the deity being worshipped, look at what they do, it speaks louder than what they say.

 

[Lukaris]

There are admirable people who are Christians and non Christians and vice versa. God knows everyone and I do not ( Ezekiel 18:4-9) & I must try to keep the commandments & treat others as God says for us to ( Matthew 22:36-40, Matthew 7:1-12).

 

[Hazelelponi]

I suspect that if you took a group of Christians and put them in a room, and given enough time and discussion, we'd learn that all of those Christians have different ideas about God.

So where do we draw the line between "different god" and "different ideas about the same God".

I would also posit this: Idolatry is not merely the worship of false gods; idolatry also consists in false worship of the true God. When Moses ascended the mountain and the people came to Aaron begging Aaron to make an idol, gold was melted down and turned into a golden calf, and the people worshiped it as the god that delivered them out from Egypt.

Was the golden calf a different god, or an idol and the false worship of God?

When we, as Christians, project our own ideas onto God, are we worshiping a different god, or are we offering false worship to God?

Because I'm sure that if you and I were to continue talking about God, eventually we'd find some pretty different ideas each of us has about God. Would that make one of us, or even both of us, worshiping an entirely different god? Or simply that our ideas about God are different, and one or both of us while talking about the one, actual, objectively Real God are wrong about Him?

I view it as the latter. I've met a lot of Christians who I think have very wrong ideas about God. I've even gone so far as to say that I think there is a level of idolatry to that. I don't always recognize the God I hear talked about by some fellow Christians--it's not the God that I see in Scripture, or who I have known in my life of faith and and confession in the Creeds. But I don't think that there is a different god being worshiped or believed in--it's that I think it is a different view of God, which I very much disagree with and believe to be very wrong. But, it's still God.

I think Muslims have very wrong ideas about God. I do not recognize God as Muslims often talk about Him. Because I know God through Jesus Christ, and as confessed in the Christian Church, the God who loves me and all other sinners and demonstrates that love by graciously sending Jesus Christ, and in Jesus Christ meeting us in the depths of our despair and unworthiness to rescue, save, restore, and heal us.

I don't recognize God except as the God who reveals Himself in Jesus Christ, as the God and Father of Jesus Christ. I confess, without reservation, "I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth." I confess that Jesus Christ is "the only Son of God" "begotten of the Father before all ages" "begotten, not made" "of the same Being with the Father". I confess of the Holy Spirit that He is, "Lord and Life-giver" who "proceeds from the Father [and the Son]" and who is "with the Father and the Son worshiped and glorified". I therefore "worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the Persons nor dividing the Essence" One God, Holy Trinity.

That's the God I worship, that is the God I believe in and confess.

I also believe that this one God loves every single person who has ever lived, and who desires that all be saved without exception; and that Christ died for all, no exceptions. That by the death of Jesus Christ God has made satisfaction for all sinners of all times, so that all who, by the grace of God, believe in Christ are saved.

I also believe that this one God established His one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. Instituted the Sacrament of Holy Baptism for the forgiveness of sins, instituted the Eucharist wherein we receive the literal flesh and blood of Jesus Christ.

I believe that this one God has predestined us in Christ from before the foundation of the world that we should be heirs according to the promise, that we are saved purely by the grace of God, through faith; and that we are freely justified--declared and rendered just before God--on Christ's account alone by the imputation of His righteousness.

I believe that this one God who made all things will, in the end, make all things new. For even as Christ has been raised from the dead, so too will God raise from the dead all who believe in Him. And out of this broken, old, dying world God will create new heavens and new earth. That Christ shall come again, to judge the living and the dead, and bring with Him kingdom without end.

Not every Christian I talk to believes everything I believe about God. Yet, this is the God I believe in.

Some Christians believe in a God who will rapture Christians out of the earth before a period of seven years of tribulation. I don't.
Some Christians believe in a God who saves people based on how righteous their deeds are. I don't.
Some Christians believe that God hates gay people. I don't.
Some Christians believe that God only sent Jesus to die for the elect. I don't.

Different God(s)? Or different beliefs about the one true God?

-CryptoLutheran

Scripture is always arbiter of Truth.

 

[PloverWing]

Would you prefer to listen to Pastor Paul Washer's 2 hour sermon entitled "10 indictments Against the Modern Church in America" and then have a discussion about why I think those in Toronto are likely to deal with the same maladies as those living in the US?

I'm curious, but 2 hours is a lot to invest. Does he have 10 bullet points on a web page somewhere?

 

[Hazelelponi]

I'm curious, but 2 hours is a lot to invest. Does he have 10 bullet points on a web page somewhere?

I'll give them to you in the morning. I'm tired ATM, just checking in to see if there was any response I should pray on before sleeping.

I'll outline it myself if I can't find it somewhere for you, I agree it's a lot of investment.

This wasn't a sermon given to church goers perse, it was a sermon he gave to pastors at an interdenominational pastoral conference. I invested the time once because I really enjoy his teaching and honestly found the sermon riveting.

 

[PloverWing]

I'll give them to you in the morning. I'm tired ATM, just checking in to see if there was any response I should pray on before sleeping.

Thanks. Sleep well!

 

[JosephZ]

God's Name, the Name He calls Himself isn't the God of Abraham - drum roll please - it's the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. 3 words, not one. Very specific.

A Muslim doesn't worship that God, and they don't claim to.

Muslims absolutely do claim to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

 

[JosephZ]

They bow down five times each day to a black cube in Mecca called the Ka'bah. From God’s perspective they are similarly corrupted.
It is what people do that reveals what they worship, not what they say.
Muslim commentators try to explain the phenomena as simply reverence for Allah’s house. Ironically some traditions suggest that Mohammad consecrated this stone as a memorial to end all idolatry. How clear it is that this is not the worship of the God of Israel who commands that we direct our worship to Him alone.

A black cube/stone is not the center of worship for Muslims. Muslims worship a stone, no more than Catholics worship a statue of Jesus or Mary. Muslims are also commanded to worship God alone.

No doubt, I know that you are only a stone and can neither benefit nor harm anyone. Saheeh al-Bukhari

Muslims are instructed to follow the religion of Abraham and to worship God Alone.

Follow the religion of Abraham, the Monotheist. He was not an idol-worshiper. (Qur'an 16:123)

We showed Abraham the location of the House: “Do not associate anything with Me; and purify My House for those who circle around, and those who stand to pray, and those who kneel and prostrate.” (Qur'an 22:26)

Abraham, when he said to his people, “Worship God, and fear Him. That is better for you, if you only knew. You worship idols besides God, and you fabricate falsehoods. Those you worship, instead of God, cannot provide you with livelihood. So seek your livelihood from God, and worship Him, and thank Him. To Him you will be returned.” (Qur'an 29:16-17)

We sent Noah to his people. He said, “O my people! Worship God; you have no god other than Him. I fear for you the punishment of a tremendous Day.” (Qur'an 7:59)

The Koran records that Allah is the author of evil. (Surah 91:7&8)

That not what those verses say.

QUR'AN 91

1. By the sun and its radiance.

2. And the moon as it follows it.

3. And the day as it reveals it.

4. And the night as it conceals it.

5. And the sky and He who built it.

6. And the earth and He who spread it.

7. And the soul and He who proportioned it.

8. And its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right

9. Successful is he who purifies it.

10. Failing is he who corrupts it.


Below are some additional English translations of verse 8:

And inspired it [with discernment of] its wickedness and its righteousness -- SAHIH INTERNATIONAL

and imbued it with (the consciousness of) its evil and its piety -- ABUL ALA MAUDUDI

And inspired it (with conscience of) what is wrong for it and (what is) right for it -- PICKTHALL

Then He showed him what is wrong for him and what is right for him -- MUHSIN KHAN

So He inspired it to its impiety and piety! -- GHALI

and inspired it [to know] its own rebellion and piety! -- ABDEL HALEEM

The Koran records that Allah commanded Satan to worship Adam.(Surah 2.32)

The verse you referenced is incorrect, it's 2:34 rather than 2:32. The angels and satan were told to bow out of respect towards Adam not out of worship. The angels were obedient, while satan was not due to his pride and arrogance.

And We said to the angels, “Bow down to Adam.” They bowed down, except for Satan. He refused, was arrogant, and was one of the disbelievers.(Qur'an 2:34)