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Why do you think we need a new example before you address mine at all?
True justice is Godly and Right.I don't see a real difference between a desire for justice and a desire for revenge.
Prmit this example :Why do you think we need a new example before you address mine at all?
Let's say I sock you in the nose. Why would it be good for me to get socked in the nose right back? Maybe it will keep me from doing it again, that would be rehabilitation which is good. Maybe it will show other people the negative consequences of socking people in the nose, that would be a deterrent which is also good. Neither of those things are for the sake of justice itself. We might accomplish the same things by pinching my arm or shooting me in the head, and neither of those responses would be justice.
How about a change to that scenario: you find that within the population of 100,000 preschool children there are 1000 bullies who CANNOT be deterred by a simple punch in the nose but CAN be DETERRED by the threat of being burned at the stake. So the government decides to film a preschool age bully being burned at the stake, and the 999 other bullies are forced to watch the video and threatened with a similar punishment.Prmit this example :
A four year old son was at a day care facility with about 25 other small children.
One bully in their midst was pushing a little girl around. She did not like that.
The four year old son punched the bully in the nose, simply. Flat out. No discussion.
The bully stopped. The little girl and everyone else around was happy. It was good.
It was right and just.
(and likely at least a deterrent for a day or longer, so the bully did not do it again)....
Pinching the bullies arm would have resulted in more bullying(probably), not in stopping the bully.
Leaving the bully without doing anything may have led to harm to the little girl. Some injury perhaps, physical or mental or other.
So, what was actually done was right, was approved of by the adults present, was approved of and appreciated by the little children present , and good clean playtime without the stress of the bullying was accomplished simply with no injuries and no injustice being permitted.
Not even a little bit of any of that makes any sense.How a change to that scenario: you find that within the population of 100,000 preschool children there are 1000 bullies who CANNOT be deterred by a simple punch in the nose but CAN be DETERRED by the threat of being burned at the stake. So the government decides to film a preschool age bully being burned at the stake, and the 999 other bullies are forced to watch the video and threatened with a similar punishment.
NOW, wouldn't it be nice if the government could fake the burning of that one preschool age bully using CGI and a lie.
Do you think one or both of those scenarios would be acceptable?
- actually or burning one preschooler at the stake
- using lies to terrorize the preschool bullies without actually burning one of them
Made perfect sense to me - particularly the second option of using CGI to create terror among the preschool age bullies without actually burning any of them at the stake.Not even a little bit of any of that makes any sense.
That is never the way in Scripture, nor from the Father --- the deception you describe "makes sense" to those corrupted by the world, in line with the world, the pernicious world.Made perfect sense to me - particularly the second option of using CGI to create terror among the preschool age bullies without actually burning any of them at the stake.
Any bullies who continue to misbehave would be taken away to be "burned at the stake" and the other children would be forced to watch the video. But actually the bully would be sent to a special institution called "Bully Town" - a top secret government boarding school where incorrigible bullies could live in isolation.
My example is very simple. If I sock you in the nose, then I deserve to be socked in the nose. Do you disagree that is justice, fairness, equity?Because we need to determine what justice is before we can decide whether a controverted example is just. Therefore we need to build agreement around the idea of justice with common examples first. Only once we have a common understanding of justice can we return to your more complicated examples which include rehabilitation and deterrence.
If the worker agrees to it, it is good, right and just.Paying a fair wage is. What if your property is 100 acres? Thirty dollars isn't a fair wage for a yard that size, so you keeping your promise isn't justice.
If I am a rich land owner, and you are a poor serf, and I offer you a tiny pittance to perform a great deal of work that you only agree to because you are desperate to feed your family, that is not good, right, and just.If the worker agrees to it, it is good, right and just.
If that's the best offer you get, take it ,If I am a rich land owner, and you are a poor serf, and I offer you a tiny pittance to perform a great deal of work that you only agree to because you are desperate to feed your family, that is not good, right, and just.
Prmit this example :
A four year old son was at a day care facility with about 25 other small children.
One bully in their midst was pushing a little girl around. She did not like that.
The four year old son punched the bully in the nose, simply. Flat out. No discussion.
The bully stopped. The little girl and everyone else around was happy. It was good.
It was right and just.
(and likely at least a deterrent for a day or longer, so the bully did not do it again)....
Pinching the bullies arm would have resulted in more bullying(probably), not in stopping the bully.
Leaving the bully without doing anything may have led to harm to the little girl. Some injury perhaps, physical or mental or other.
So, what was actually done was right, was approved of by the adults present, was approved of and appreciated by the little children present , and good clean playtime without the stress of the bullying was accomplished simply with no injuries and no injustice being permitted.
It's not good, right, and just of me to make such a small offer.If that's the best offer you get, take it ,
or if you don't like it, don't take it.
If agreed upon, it is still good, right, and just.
Yet it was just, right, and good. (as everyone agreed)A punch to the nose is much more violent than a shoving, so the response wasn't equitable, and therefore not just.
I did nothing, and the bully might not have been rehabilitated. That doesn't matter. What was needed to be done at the moment, was good, and right, and was done.You caused the bully to stop shoving, so you rehabilitated him, that is the good that came from punching him.
So if a bunch of people agree on something, that's how we know what is true? You sure about that?Yet it was just, right, and good. (as everyone agreed)
Making the offer was perfectly legitimate. You can accept it, counteroffer, or not take it.It's not good, right, and just of me to make such a small offer.
It happened, so it is true even if no one agreed.So if a bunch of people agree on something, that's how we know what is true? You sure about that?
You said the bully stopped, so he was rehabilitated. What was done was for the good of getting the bully to stop, not for the good of giving the bully what he deserved, so it wasn't for the sake of justice.I did nothing, and the bully might not have been rehabilitated. That doesn't matter. What was needed to be done at the moment, was good, and right, and was done.
No, you gave "everyone agreed" as the reason that it was right and good.It happened, so it is true even if no one agreed.
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